Florida election officials think it **might** be time for a new voting system

[Prodigy^]

We use the 'set an X on a piece of paper' system here in Denmark and it works nicely.

here's a scetch of what the voting slip looked like at our latest election about the Euro.

Danish KISS voting slip

seriously, can it be that hard?

and when there's more complicated elections about the government you just have a couple extra boxes that you can tick.

 

[DABANSHEE]

"The reason the US moved away from hand count ballots was corruption... The good ole He who counts the votes wins the election stuff."

Haven't you ever heard of scrutineers, every single vote counter in Australian tally rooms has both a Labour & consevative scrutineer looking over his/her shoulders. BTW, in such a ballot its virtually impossible to (even intentionally) mis-interpret a vote. BTW, the reason the US introduced voting machines was to cut costs (manpower). Just log onto the IBM website & go to its history section. There's a very interesting article about its totalisating & tabulating machines that they supplied the US govt 100 years ago for tabulating censess data & taking & counting election ballots.

"There is no 'complicated mess'... that intimidates voters"

Yes there is, that's why most Americans don't vote & why the US has the lowest turnout rates in the OECD. Just the simple fact that one county might use a different type of machine to the next county in a Federal poll spells complicated mess to me. The simple fact is people don't like machines - look at all those people who refuse to use ATMs.

"The screw up rate with punch cards is about 3%... this is not because the machine is bad... it is because about 3% are too dumb to do it right."

Exactly, you said it. The simple fact is a voting system is a failure if 3% are too dumb to do it right. Even the most simplton of fukwits is unlikely fukup a ''X' marks the spot' paper ballot, like the 2nd sample ballot here. Even in Australia, which has a complicated preferential voting system (where one has to number the candidates in order of preference, like the 1st sample ballot on this page) our informality rates are no worse than the US which uses a simple '1st past the post' voting system. As can be shown by these Bi-election results. & all because we use KISS paper ballots - in polls where ''X' marks the spot' ballots are used, the informality rates are always under 1%.

"How does 3% stupid people translate to 'discourage the masses from voting' ????"

By the simple fact that the US has the lowest turnout rates in the OECD - When the UN was preparing for the polls in East-Timor the US offered to send down voting machines. However the UN rejected them because they intimidated voters & decreased turnout rates, that was the official reason. The UN actually has a policy of using 'KISS' paper ballots (of either the preferential type or the 'X' marks the spot type) where ever it administers elections, for this very reason.

"I take it that you read the letters of the various boards, requesting extra time ? for a hand count ?"

Well that's because those local electoral boards were to tight to triple their temp staff. Here in Australia its extremy rare for results not to be known the same night & every single ballot in Australia is counted by hand. As I said before they hire indoor stadiums & convention centres galore to house the thousands of counters & scrutineers while they count away. Those 3 Florida counties could have done their hand re-counts overnight if they had the gumption to lease all the indoor local stadiums & convention centres & filled them with thousands of counters to tally the ballots. It wouldn't have cost much more either, as 10 temp staff hired for one day can count the same amount of polls for the same wage costs as 1 temp worker over 10 days.

"It is quite clear that you do not understand how the system works in the US..."

It's quite clear you have so little experiance of the rest of the world that you think the US system is the norm. It's not. There are reasons why public policy professionals consider it an anachronistic, inefficient, confusing & intimidating electoral system (just log onto the Centre for International Policy, The Global Exchange & the Policy.com homepage & have a browse).

"All the crap that went on, occured because Gore decided to try a 'fast one'... The democrats had pulled this magic trick before. If he had played straight & not tried to manipulate the system... he may have won... may have, mind you.."

In Australia it would have been impossible for Gore to pull a fast one in the 1st place & it would also have been impossible for the Rebublicans to block a recount (if the independent Australian Electoral Commision deemed a recount necessary).

As no politicians have any say at all in the running, administering, counting & decision making processes, once the election day has been called

 

[cxim]

DABA,

i'll say it again.. you have little idea of what you are talking about... Most of the time you are out of context...

Your 'scrutineers' have long been a part of the process here in the US... they do not work as well as machines... The stealing of votes does not occur at the looking over the shoulder stage.

<><> Yes there is, that's why most Americans don't vote &amp; why the US has the lowest turnout rates in the OECD. Just the simple fact that one county might use a different type of machine to the next county in a Federal poll spells complicated mess to me. The simple fact is people don't like machines - look at all those people who refuse to use ATMs.<><>

This is frank bullsh!t.. You have no idea what the main cause of low turnout is due to... as an example... how can someone be putoff by a machine when no machine is used ??? the punch card system is not a machine. A punchcard is not an ATM... The fact that something spells complicated to you is meaningless... You want to do a survey to backup your idiot proposition ? do it... otherwise you are spouting flatus.

Your comparison is without meaning...<><>Exactly, you said it. The simple fact is a voting system is a failure if 3% are too dumb to do it right. Even the most simplton of fukwits is unlikely fukup a ''X' marks the spot' paper ballot, <><>

it has been shown over &amp; over in the US that there is still about a 3% FU rate, even with simple paper ballots.

What the UN does means F#ckall to me.

<><>Well that's because those local electoral boards were to tight to triple their temp staff<><>

Burned your a$$ on that one, bad... they did not give a reason as to why or how they were late, or would be late, or as why they needed more time. Or as to what attempt they had made to meet the statutory deadline. That is why the extensions were denied.

<><>It's quite clear you have so little experiance of the rest of the world that you think the US system is the norm<><>

You ate another big one here... I have lived in several countries in Europe &amp; Africa &amp; am well aware of how things work in other countries... What I said stands... You spout off &amp; you do not know how or why things work as they do in the US.

&amp; get off this crap of the republicans blocking a recount...

There was no valid legal recount because the democrats kept trying to do illegal things. The hand recounts in the counties were not accepted because The Gore tried to introduce non valid, illegal criteria.

That was the final decision of the US Supreme Court. It was exactly the same thing, I said from early on.

The Gore team got caught out midway with false legal information... They tried to play off the legal system with the guess that it would never get to the US Supreme Court.

They read the legal lay of the land correctly in Florida, but screwed them selves on 2 issues. One was that the State legislature would not get involved...

The US S C in its final ruling stated that the legislature was correct &amp; could appoint presidential electors at any time, if it so chose. If the legislature had done so, it could not have been over-ruled by a court. This is a peculiar quirk &amp; only applies to presidential races. There would have not been 2 slates of electors as the state legislature has the final say.

This is a holdover from 200 yrs ago where electors were appointed directly by the state legislatures. The laws are still on the books &amp; still valid.

This has gotten almost no play in the news reports... however it was part of the majority ruling of the US S C.

FROM THE US S C RULING

<><>The State, of course, after granting the franchise in the special context of Article II, can take back the power to appoint electors. See id., at 35 ([T]here is no doubt of the right of the legislature to re-sume
the power at any time, for it can neither be taken away nor abdicated) (quoting S. Rep. No. 395, 43d Cong., 1st Sess.).<><>

&amp; the other was that the Federal supreme court would not get involved.

 

[Capn]

How can you truly believe that less than half of the people in the U.S. voted because they were intimidated with the voting machine itself? Apathy has nothing to do with a simple machine.

 

[DABANSHEE]

I don't, but its definitly a factor. Look at all the people who refuse to use ATMs. Even most of those who do use cashcard machines refuse to deposit money in them.

 

[veryape]

Sluggo,we have the same system here in Rhode Island,the <-- --> system that is.

DABANSHEE,I agree,there has to be a uniform standard nationally that is simple enough for the most foolish and ignorant of voters,because,even though they may be dumb,its their right in America to vote, unless they are felons or do not have their citiZenship.


[EDIT]Oh,the arrow system works flawlessly by the way,there was more than one district where I voted and I accidentally put my ballot in the wrong machine and it kicked it back to me. I asked the man that worked there why and he told me that any ballot either from anothern district or just improperly marked(which is almost impossible with this system)would be kicked out. Pretty nice system IMO.

 

[Wangel]

If they come out with a new voting system, then they will start up with the old saying: &quot;Go out and vote, you vote counts!&quot; We all now know it doesn't!

 

[DABANSHEE]

&quot;&amp; get off this crap of the republicans blocking a recount...

There was no valid legal recount because the democrats kept trying to do illegal things. The hand recounts in the counties were not accepted because The Gore tried to introduce non valid, illegal criteria.&quot;

What's that got to do with the price of eggs, Cxim? My argument was that in Australia it would be impossible for a politician like the Florida SoS to block a recount, as only the independent electoral commision has any say on such decisions. Whether the reason for the recount in Florida is valid or not is irrelevant to the point I was getting across.

The simple fact is she is a politician &amp; she was also Bush's campaign manager which is a puts her in a conflict of interest, as far as OKing or blocking recounts are concerned, whether the reasons for the recounts are valid or not. That's an example of a system being fuked to buggery - Politicians should have no say in such issues, period.

Look, Australia has a few problems itself, which could very well be solved by looking at the way the US has delt with those same problems. But by the same token the US can also learn from the way things are done in other countries too. Doing things a certain way because that's the way the've always been done is no excuse for not trying out what might to turn out to be a better way of doing things.

 

[DABANSHEE]

&quot;its their right in America to vote, unless they are felons or do not have their citiZenship.&quot;

Ah, why shouldn't felons have the right to vote in the US, veryape, afterall they can vote in the rest of the western world. When a felon gets convicted they pay their debt to society by their loss of liberty for the length of their sentence (or worse, being executed). Surelly they don't lose their rights as citizens, too, or do the?

Otherwise govts can manipute the votes by making certain misdemeanors felonies. For example there could be a close swinging electoral district which contains public housing where many of the residents have misdemeanor possesion charges &amp; maybe they are more likely to vote for the opposition party. Consequently the govt re-lists simple possesion as a felony, knowing that over time many of these residents will get 'done' again. That way the govt can disenfranchise these opposition voters, increasing their chances of holding the district past November (remember its a close swinging seat, so even if just a couple of hundred people are disenfranchised it could help them retaine control of the district).

 

[JellyBaby]

The best way to fix our voting system is to give us decent candidates and parties to vote for. Then you wouldn't have these pesky close races.

But idealism aside, the greatest deterent to folks getting out to vote is the simple fact they have to trod out to a specific place at a specific time and wait in lines. I've seen surveys where those who claimed they didn't vote, if offered to vote using their TV or PC, would absolutely do so. But we're a long way away from anything resembling online voting.

Real-time ballot validation is the key. Don't let an invalid ballot get into the system in the first place. Pretty standard, really.

 

[Prodigy^]

you know, it's funny how you always look at every single politician as a 'moron' or an 'asshole'.

try researching your matters before you call a man who's been the US vice president for 8 years, a moron....I bet most politicians in the government are smarter than you. no offense, but i'm just tired of people who discriminate the system just to do so.

 

[Capn]

I doubt most politicians are smarter than me, if you were talking in the general sense, if you were talking about a specific person than excuse me . Where do intelligent people go as far as a career, engineering, science, etc. etc. I wouldn't call either of the candidates stupid, but they aren't the best and the brightest. The best and the brightest knew far better than to get involved in politics in the first place.

 

[JenniZ]

Survival of the fittest, if you are too stupid to figure out a ballot that a third grader could figure out. You dont deserve to vote.

Simple as that. Stupid people deserve no rights. Stupidity is not acceptable, because its preventable.

Scantron would work, I managed to do this throughout my school years. If someone is to dumb to figure out a scantron then its not my problem.

 

[Format C:]

Dabanshee, have you ever lived in the US or been a citizen? If not then SHUT UP! Your opinions and assertions are about as valid as a dimpled chad.