Florida High School Shooting

[Meghan54]

There is nothing to discuss as there is exactly one option available. No amount of control, testing, licensing, restricting, or otherwise limiting guns will solve the problem. The one and only solution is to eliminate all firearms in the US. This would quite literally be a war on guns, and it would most likely work about as well as the war on drugs.

You know, it's this grade school level argument that really sets apart most pro-gun rabid conservatives from the rest of society......the argument that since we cannot eliminate the problem entirely without horrendous methods, it's worthless to try to mitigate the problem in any fashion.

Interestingly, the notion that gun laws don't work is shown by comparing murder rates amongst regions of the U.S., such as the Northeast...known for strict gun laws.....vs. say the South.

As a region, the Northeast had a murder and non-negligent manslaughter rate of 3.5 per 100k (2016 FBI crime stats.....linked below). Compare that to the U.S. average of 5.3 and the South's at 6.5.

If you break out New England from the Northeast, that region's rate is 2.0. (New England is represented by ME, NH, VT, MA, CT and RI.) MA is at 2.0.

Now, in the South, you have rates like LA's of 11.8, MS 8.0, KY 5.9, AL 8.4, SC 7.4, NC 6.7, GA 6.6, FL 5.4, VA 5.8, TX 5.3, TN 7.3, AR 7.2.

Wonder why the disparity between regions?

One finding offered by the FBI:

--The estimated number of murders increased 13.5 percent in the Midwest, 9.1 percent in the South, and 8.0 percent in the West, but decreased 0.6 percent in the Northeast.

Honestly, I don't know how to fully attack our gun problems, and there are many problems. But I do see a need to really get a handle on the proliferation of handguns. Why? In 2016, there were 15,070 reported murders. Of those, 11,004 were committed with a firearm, with 7,105 committed with a handgun. That's almost 2/3 of murders committed with a firearm was with a handgun.


But, thoughts and prayers are the answer because no one can solve the problem completely, so why bother..........


FBI stats links:

Table 2....violent crime by type and region:
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-2

Table 4...expanded homicide data by weapon:
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

 

[VRAMdemon]

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/ki...da-thoughts-prayers-tweet-much-money-took-nra

thoughts&prayers

The dead schoolchildren should be hailed as heroes who gave their lives so that we could maintain our Second Amendment freedoms.

Whoever gives a shit in Congress should sponsor legislation giving the wounded and the families of the dead in such incidents the same benefits that soldiers wounded in combat, and the survivors of soldiers killed in combat, receive.

And those killed in such shootings should be eligible for burial in our military cemeteries. They've given their lives for the 'freedoms' that conservatives value more highly than any other.

 

[brycejones]

Do you oppose a border wall? If so, is the basis rooted in that it won't be a perfect solution immediately and therefore we should do nothing? I hear that one a lot. There is a lot of violence and death associated with our open borders.

I think an actual wall is a stupid idea. I have no issue with border security. But its funny you should bring this up, because one of the biggest stumbling blocks to immigration reform has been:

Conservatives throwing hissy fits that unless the border is 100% secure we can't even begin to talk about immigration reform.

Again, if there isn't a perfect answer do nothing is the conservative approach to most issues.

 

[bshole]

Heavily regulated? I can go to my local convenience store and pick up a carton of Marlboros anytime I want. No background check. I can hand packs of smokes out to kids and not go to jail. I'm sure that a lot of stores sell them to underage kids as well.

btw, I don't do cigs. Nasty disgusting things. Way too expensive too.

And then you can go to your local playground and start the process of mass murdering kids via second hand. Better hurry though, it might take you 50 years or so. Yea cigarettes are just like guns, no difference whatsoever.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Is it true that mass shootings like this don't happen in other countries? Or is it just amazing that mental illness doesn't result in this in other countries? Or is it because they don't have the capacity/opportunity to open fire upon crowds?

Most countries don't have a love affair with violence the way we do. Application of force is considered to be the normal method of conflict resolution, from school age (as we can see here) onward. It's presented to us in virtually every form possible, from toys to games to media to governmental action. Hell, right in this thread you're seeing it's effects, people are talking about removal of guns by force, violent if necessary as the only possible resolution to this problem.

Wonder why the disparity between regions?

There's a big cultural difference between the north and the south, I've lived in TX, SC, GA, and NY, and the difference in behavior between them is staggering. Also, keep in mind that it's a huge distance. The distance from NYC to Atlanta, GA is about the same as from Athens, Greece to Syria (as the crow flies).

 

[dank69]

You know, it's this grade school level argument that really sets apart most pro-gun rabid conservatives from the rest of society......the argument that since we cannot eliminate the problem entirely without horrendous methods, it's worthless to try to mitigate the problem in any fashion.

Interestingly, the notion that gun laws don't work is shown by comparing murder rates amongst regions of the U.S., such as the Northeast...known for strict gun laws.....vs. say the South.

As a region, the Northeast had a murder and non-negligent manslaughter rate of 3.5 per 100k (2016 FBI crime stats.....linked below). Compare that to the U.S. average of 5.3 and the South's at 6.5.

If you break out New England from the Northeast, that region's rate is 2.0. (New England is represented by ME, NH, VT, MA, CT and RI.) MA is at 2.0.

Now, in the South, you have rates like LA's of 11.8, MS 8.0, KY 5.9, AL 8.4, SC 7.4, NC 6.7, GA 6.6, FL 5.4, VA 5.8, TX 5.3, TN 7.3, AR 7.2.

Wonder why the disparity between regions?

One finding offered by the FBI:

--The estimated number of murders increased 13.5 percent in the Midwest, 9.1 percent in the South, and 8.0 percent in the West, but decreased 0.6 percent in the Northeast.

Honestly, I don't know how to fully attack our gun problems, and there are many problems. But I do see a need to really get a handle on the proliferation of handguns. Why? In 2016, there were 15,070 reported murders. Of those, 11,004 were committed with a firearm, with 7,105 committed with a handgun. That's almost 2/3 of murders committed with a firearm was with a handgun.


But, thoughts and prayers are the answer because no one can solve the problem completely, so why bother..........


FBI stats links:

Table 2....violent crime by type and region:
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-2

Table 4...expanded homicide data by weapon:
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

Honestly I think bullying is the primary problem that sets America apart from the rest of the world. I'm not saying bullying doesn't exist elsewhere, but the impression I get is that it is much more common in the US for students to be singled out by basically an entire school. This certainly seems to be the case with this kid.

 

[BAMAVOO]

But it won't be a perfect solution immediately so we should do nothing.

The same use it is today.

No, the argument against the border wall is that it will not be cost effective.

But you are wrong... the cost in 2017 for illegal immigration was $135 billion. Even the total cost of the wall at $67 billion seems like a deal, if it works..

 

[MomentsofSanity]

The dead schoolchildren should be hailed as heroes who gave their lives so that we could maintain our Second Amendment freedoms.

Whoever gives a shit in Congress should sponsor legislation giving the wounded and the families of the dead in such incidents the same benefits that soldiers wounded in combat, and the survivors of soldiers killed in combat, receive.

And those killed in such shootings should be eligible for burial in our military cemeteries. They've given their lives for the 'freedoms' that conservatives value more highly than any other.

You reminded me of what this former conservative hero had to say on the subject.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/joe-the-plumber-guns_n_5397981

Joe The Plumber: 'Your Dead Kids Don't Trump My Constitutional Rights' To Have Guns

 

[SlowSpyder]

And yet we end up with the same weapons being used every time. And It's not just about stopping power. It's about the ability to spray massive amounts of ammunition down range in a very short amount of time. Try doing what he did with a bolt-action hunting rifle. Try even arguing you reasonably could.

That is a flat out lie. There were a few shootings (this one and Vegas) that stand out as recent examples. Statistically speaking rifles (including the semi auto AR15) kill relatively few people. In 2016 267 people were killed by semi auto "assault" rifles. For comparison about half that many people die from choking on pen caps each year.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

The same use it is today.

But you are wrong... the cost in 2017 for illegal immigration was $135 billion. Even the total cost of the wall at $67 billion seems like a deal, if it works..

The overwhelming majority of "illegal immigrants" are from overstaying legal visas, not illegal border crossings. Illegal crossings is just a drop in the hat comparatively. That's now how cost/benefit analysis works.

 

[dank69]

The same use it is today.

But you are wrong... the cost in 2017 for illegal immigration was $135 billion. Even the total cost of the wall at $67 billion seems like a deal, if it works..

Key phrase: If it works. There is no reason to believe it will work to reduce the cost of illegal immigration by $67 billion. That's why I said "cost effective."

 

[MomentsofSanity]

That is a flat out lie. There were a few shootings (this one and Vegas) that stand out as recent examples. Statistically speaking rifles (including the semi auto AR15) kill relatively few people. In 2016 267 people were killed by semi auto "assault" rifles. For comparison about half that many people die from choking on pen caps each year.

We are talking about high casualty mass shootings here. Pay attention. The worst cases almost all have the AR-15 in common.

 

[momeNt]

Do you not think there's a bit of diminishing returns though? I'm barely paying attention to this story on the news, because it seems like there's one every couple of weeks from over there. This guy is not going to get the attention that the Columbine pair did (I can still remember their names, unlike pretty much every school yard shooter since).

On the one hand that might make such wickedness less 'rewarding' for the attention-seeker, but on the other it might just lead them to escalate and attempt to out-do their predecessors.

Check the media coverage. It is very fevered.

 

[brandonbull]

Everything about you is reprehensible you low life disease!

I'm sorry that you wish to avoid the root cause of the problem.

 

[SlowSpyder]

We are talking about high casualty mass shootings here. Pay attention. The worst cases almost all have the AR-15 in common.

And there are mass shootings that use guns other than AR15 style weapons. And ultimately they kill relatively few people. Yet the anti-2A'ers push their knee-jerk reactions forward.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Check the media coverage. It is very fevered.

Our media makes money the exact same way the entertainment industry does. Gun violence is a big click generator. Other much more frequent forms of death aren't, and the brainedwashed masses don't care about those other things while waging an illogical war on guns.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Regulations don't work? MA lowest gun rate death in the country - https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...-study-says/jOCtngpzaToQFBdZq43AbP/story.html

Massachusetts had the lowest gun death rate in the country in 2015, newly released federal data shows, and advocacy groups on Tuesday attributed the state’s ranking to its tough firearm laws.

There were 213 gun deaths in the state in 2015, for a rate of 3.13 per 100,000 residents, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

The CDC calculates the gun death rate by dividing fatalities by the state’s population and multiplying that figure by 100,000. Total gun deaths include homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings.

The states with the next lowest rates in 2015 were Hawaii at 3.84 deaths per 100,000, New York at 4.29, Rhode Island at 4.83, and Connecticut at 5.26. The highest firearm death rates were 23.97 per 100,000 in Alaska, 20.38 in Louisiana, 19.85 in Montana, 19.72 in Alabama, and 19.68 in Mississippi.

 

[obidamnkenobi]

% of households

Most of what I've seen indicates individual ownership in the high 10s range. Also about 3% of gun owners now own 50% of the guns in circulation.

wow! I had to google that. You're right. That nuts!
https://www.zmescience.com/medicine/just-3-americans-50-countrys-guns/

"19% of American adults own 50% of the country’s firearms while the other half is concentrated in the hands of only 3% of the population."

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Regulations don't work? MA lowest gun rate death in the country - https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...-study-says/jOCtngpzaToQFBdZq43AbP/story.html

Is there a comparison between gun death rates prior and after the regulations were put in place? Just curious, we've got a limited data set here and I'd like to know how much of that is cultural and how much is a result of the regulation.

 

[VRAMdemon]

To protect themselves from the tyrannical government they wholeheartedly endorse?

A majority of Americans support stricter gun control and an overwhelming percent support background checks on all gun sales. Clearly having the government oppose the majority's will is tyranny. Fighting tyranny is why we have the 2nd ammendment. So wouldn't the solution be for the majority to take up arms and force congress to act?. How is that for irony.

 

[rh71]

Most countries don't have a love affair with violence the way we do. Application of force is considered to be the normal method of conflict resolution, from school age (as we can see here) onward. It's presented to us in virtually every form possible, from toys to games to media to governmental action. Hell, right in this thread you're seeing it's effects, people are talking about removal of guns by force, violent if necessary as the only possible resolution to this problem.

What about opportunity? Are those in other countries able to commit such acts as easily, if they wanted to?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Is there a comparison between gun death rates prior and after the regulations were put in place? Just curious, we've got a limited data set here and I'd like to know how much of that is cultural and how much is a result of the regulation.

Yeah I posted this in one of the other mass shooting threads. While gun nuts point to the number of guns owned going up the number of owners isn't increasing. The number of "super collectors" is.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Most countries don't have a love affair with violence the way we do. Application of force is considered to be the normal method of conflict resolution, from school age (as we can see here) onward. It's presented to us in virtually every form possible, from toys to games to media to governmental action. Hell, right in this thread you're seeing it's effects, people are talking about removal of guns by force, violent if necessary as the only possible resolution to this problem.


There's a big cultural difference between the north and the south, I've lived in TX, SC, GA, and NY, and the difference in behavior between them is staggering. Also, keep in mind that it's a huge distance. The distance from NYC to Atlanta, GA is about the same as from Athens, Greece to Syria (as the crow flies).

The only country that beats US in terms of mass shootings per capita is Yemen. Think about that. A country in the midst of a civil war is the only one with more occurrences than a "peaceful" country like the United States.

 

[momeNt]

Regulations don't work? MA lowest gun rate death in the country - https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...-study-says/jOCtngpzaToQFBdZq43AbP/story.html

MA has 19th lowest gun murder rate though. So a lot of that is made up by having a very low gun suicide rate with a relatively average gun murder rate.

DC has almost double the gun murder rate of the 2nd highest, so I mean most data points to it being a socioeconomic issue and not a regulation issue.

 

[rh71]

How is that for irony.

Well the irony has always been... this is a free country and majority rules... yet there are laws. So throw that idea of free reign out the window - we have to.