Florida High School Shooting

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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I also agree as long as we also explore the drugs being used to treat mental illness. The commercials for many of these medications that include disclaimers that they may cause suicidal thoughts or actions come to mind.

Well, as a psychiatrist, I have much more interest and training in psychotherapy than is typical, and I really want society to move away from the drug-fix standard. However, I will say that those disclaimers are often not truly attributable to the medication. Companies are required to report that drugs may cause any of the adverse events that occur during the trial, whether it is clear that the drug caused it or not. If you take a bunch of mentally ill people as your study population, invariably someone will become suicidal. That does not mean the drug itself caused it. However, serious life-threatening adverse events are things that the FDA often requires advertisers to disclose anyway. That said, there are some cases where some drugs may be associated with increased suicidality, at least in certain populations.

One good case example is the controversial FDA warning that has been applied to all antidepressants for teens and young adults surrounding suicidality. Whether that association is actually valid (or at least for more than a couple specific meds) is controversial enough, but the result of this warning is that teens and young adults presenting to doctors with depression are much more often receiving no treatment of any kind, including therapy. The suicide rate has seen a significant increase. While causality is extremely difficult to demonstrate, I find it very clear that no treatment for depression is far worse than an SSRI even if it increases suicidality compared to placebo. Best is therapy or therapy + SSRI for that population which, for even those where an association is possible, combination with therapy eliminated risk conferred by the medicine.

Back to the topic at hand. I do think, obviously, that mental health / deranged mental states are of paramount importance in commission of these acts. However, I think the problem relates much more to how society treats these individuals than how the mental health system does.
 
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brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,338
1,215
126
I've concluded 2A absolutists in this thread don't give 2 shits about mass/school shootings.

They claim so called lefites don't understand the "root cause" but we have yet to hear any of their solutions besides do nothing.

I've concluded that Libtards don't give 2 shits about anything that doesn't produce headlines or TV ratings. It's a race to call people with dissimilar viewpoints as racists or morons and then back slap themselves into coma because they solved the problem with insults and sarcasm.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
If you think this is a serious question then you're pretty much dumber than a fucking rock. Look at a calendar for the time the Democrats had 60 votes in the Senate, explain how they were supposed to fix the ills of the world in that time. Also explain how in the following 9 years the GOP has done fuck all to even begin to address the issue of gun violence and then try to tell us again how this isn't about one party. Which party gets the vast majority of money from the NRA? Why do you think that is?

BTW if you don't vote Republican who do you vote for?

If I say Democrat can I hang with the cool kids? I refuse to vote for anyone with a D or R for their party affiliation. Call me a monster.

Hey... Remember the assault weapons ban of 1993? About that. Even when the democrats pass something, it meant nothing. Remember how it wasn't an actual ban? Could still buy a preban configured AR if you wanted... and you could still buy a post ban AR if you wanted. NRA went laughing to the bank and the gun control groups did their own victory lap. I wonder how much money people at the top of politics and those organizations made that time around? Do you get the point yet? The parties no matter how enamored you are with the party of your choice are not going to solve the gun problem even when they have the power to do so. They aren't going to solve immigration. They aren't going to fix healthcare. They are focused on strictly the status quo while making you believe they actually give a shit.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Yes, of course I think improving health care for tens (hundreds?) of millions of people is more important than gun violence. Common sense, really. You really should blame the Republicans though, as they are the ones who have repeatedly blocked common sense gun control that you claim to support. This is also common sense.

Also, let's have yet another lol at the guy who just said the ACA was pushing this country in the direction of socialism but was TOTALLY going to vote for Clinton before he learned how the DNC was funded. I get so, so many laughs out of you.


Yes, I was leaning towards Clinton, I bought into the Trump-fear propaganda the left was peddling. Towards the back end of the election I was starting to warm up to Trump, after the election I felt he was clearly the right choice in time. Not sure why you don't believe this, it isn't some sort of tall tale. Neither option was perfect to me, you have to pick one that is better than the other, though.
 
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WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
Republicans are in charge of the country now, let them try their solutions. If they don't work, we can throw them out and try Democrat solutions next.

Well that has been working great for us the last forty or fifty plus years.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,266
13,569
146
With his history at a minimum purchase should have been held up pending a more extensive background check.
I worked at Walmart selling guns in the gun department for 2 years. Technically we sold other stuff, but this was TX, so it was mostly the gun department. The only people that got extensive background checks (as in, beyond the initial phone call where the NICS hotline said yes or no) were people that had names that sounded 'south of the border', and most of those were still approved, they just needed to check on the name/address stuff more carefully. I had one person turned away because he put yes to convicted felon, and one person turned away because he had no physical address, just a PO box. Maybe 5 total out of a few dozen I'd guess that got extended background checks that actually got denied (they never said why). We sold *hundreds* of guns while I worked there.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,705
28,875
136
I've concluded that Libtards don't give 2 shits about anything that doesn't produce headlines or TV ratings. It's a race to call people with dissimilar viewpoints as racists or morons and then back slap themselves into coma because they solved the problem with insults and sarcasm.
You've just proved my point. At least Slow had some useful suggestions.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,981
8,025
136
Serious question. What actions did the democrats take under Obama when they actually for a period of time had the votes to do so?

The answer of course is nothing. Anyone who makes this about party is selectively blind.

It is about party, because one explicitly stands with the NRA and unfettered gun promotion in the USA.

The DNC may be weak and watered down VS real and impactful solutions, but when push comes to shove they're more sympathetic to taking the correct action. If there is a solution, they're the only ones who'd be willing to do it. We can sure as hell blame Republicans for their success at promoting guns.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
It wasn't Republicans that offered up universal background checks

Remind me... Did either party actual vote on that? Nope.

***Disclaimer...I would love universal background checks even if that doesn't address the core issue on mass shootings fully.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,532
15,413
136
I've concluded that Libtards don't give 2 shits about anything that doesn't produce headlines or TV ratings. It's a race to call people with dissimilar viewpoints as racists or morons and then back slap themselves into coma because they solved the problem with insults and sarcasm.

You say un ironically.
 

mdram

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2014
1,512
208
106
I believe Dems offered this up after Gabby Giffords shooting and NRA/Republicans shot it down.

People who are mentally unstable and/or have anger issues should not be allowed to purchase guns. As part of the application process social media history should me examined.

These steps should be enacted.

dems didnt have a method fo hand firearms down to kids, or buy your kid a firearm. heck you couldnt even let them use yours

It's almost like we need better mental health identification, care, and reporting. Not that it would have helped here, since Trump abolished the requirement for them to report to NICS anyhow (and thus it would have never hit a background check).
that EO was all smoke and mirrors, it wasnt hat you think it was
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
See my post above, don't #bothsides this. Obama's EO was specifically targeting this kind of shit, and Trump revoked it, because Obama implemented it. There's no arguing that.

No shit that is why he nullified it. Obama's EO was largely symbolic and that is it. We don't need symbolic bullshit EOs or legislation that essentially does nothing.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
I've concluded that Libtards don't give 2 shits about anything that doesn't produce headlines or TV ratings. It's a race to call people with dissimilar viewpoints as racists or morons and then back slap themselves into coma because they solved the problem with insults and sarcasm.

That is because you, sir, are a moron. You are so invested in maintaining you incredibly narrow and bigoted world view that you are literally willing to allow children to be murdered to do so. You are a disgusting human being.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,532
15,413
136
Remind me... Did either party actual vote on that? Nope.

***Disclaimer...I would love universal background checks even if that doesn't address the core issue on mass shootings fully.

Do you even know how Congress works?
 
Jan 25, 2011
16,694
8,896
146
Remind me... Did either party actual vote on that? Nope.

***Disclaimer...I would love universal background checks even if that doesn't address the core issue on mass shootings fully.
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-background-check-bill-failed-2013-4

The Senate on Wednesday defeated a bipartisan compromise to expand background checks for gun purchases, marking an ignominious end of a four-month national debate over how to curb the gun violence epidemic in the United States.

The failure of the background check bill is baffling. The bill, authored by two Senators with 'A' ratings from the NRA, would have extended background checks to sales at gun shows and all Internet sales, while exempting most private transactions between families and friends. (Under the existing system, more than 40% of guns are purchased without a background check.)

In this case it was a joint party bill by a Dem and a Republican that offered it up. Entire GOP voted it down, 4 Dems voted no but without the GOP it couldn't have gotten to 60 to pass.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
Blah Blah Blah false equivalency.. Blah Blah Blah Both Sides Blah Blah Blah.. To pretend the reason nothing has been done on this issue isn't solely the responsibility of the NRA supported Republican party is asinine.

As long as you keep making this about political division and stereotype then expect nothing to get done. The reality is when you take politics out of it there is a shit load of middle ground that most americans share in regard to firearm ownership and firearm laws.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,266
13,569
146
No shit that is why he nullified it. Obama's EO was largely symbolic and that is it. We don't need symbolic bullshit EOs or legislation that essentially does nothing.
If one cannot get forward momentum on a direct course, an indirect course must be utilized instead. Rather than throwing hands up stating 'nothing can be done', at least a half-step forward was taken to at least *NOTIFY* the government if someone had the potential to cause harm. If it was largely symbolic and 'did nothing', then why the shit was it so important that Trump had to nullify it? Nothing better to do as president?
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
To be honest, as I read the constitution I think any effective legislation should require constitutional amendment, and I would vote for that personally, but we are having enough time passing even ineffective legislation.

I think it should be obvious that certain weapons become used for these attacks over and over again. And has been pointed out, it isn't necessarily because they are the most effective. However, they are much more effective than any handgun, for instance. I think it is clear that these weapons are good representatives for a person's violent fantasy. Even though there are a bunch of ways gun manufacturers work around legal restrictions, anything that actually makes it just a little bit harder to have access to assault-style firearms will have impact. If it does not reduce frequency of attack, it will affect lethality.
 
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WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
because he was not in the nics as prohibited.
if there was a reason for him to be there, and looks like there was, why was he not reported?

ask his doctors

He would have to be committed to a mental ward or commit a felony. We already know those are the two things that he did not do. So the question becomes how far do we want to go into people's medical history, their relationships with their doctors or their school records in order to facilitate a better vetting of them making a legal purchase of a firearm?

The problems in the way include HIPAA, School rules or laws about confidentiality of student info (especially of minors) and of course due process. Probably lots of other hurdles in there too.

There is a way certainly, just not sure it could ever happen.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
Compared to doing not a goddamned thing, implementing a requirement that agencies report mental health incidents to NICS is indeed 'sweeping gun legislation'. You're moving the goalposts so that you're right. Why is that so important to you?

EO is not legislation which was in my original point.
 
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