Florida High School Shooting

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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,301
13,613
146
I strongly suspect a lot more people would be shot every year if it was legal, haha. The deterrence effect of laws is pretty well established. Sure they clearly don’t stop everyone, but they certainly stop a bunch.

As for focusing on the why instead of the how, why not both?
Cuz frankly, in the current US political and social climate, I think trying to ban guns will get less traction than my Camaro on ice. I think it's a complete waste of time to even attempt it at this point, let the old shits born in the 40's die out, once the internet generation is making laws, they may be more inclined to get rid of them. For now, focus on something nice and non-objectionable, like sweeping mental health reform.
 

mdram

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2014
1,512
208
106
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...chool-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html


Meanwhile, it emerged that police were called to Nikolas Cruz's family's Parkland home 39 times since 2010, according to police records obtained by CNN.

The sheriff's office received a range of emergency calls that included: 'mentally ill person,' 'child/elderly abuse,' 'domestic disturbance,' 'missing person,' and several others.

Cruz moved in with a friend's family after his adoptive mother, 68-year-old Lynda Cruz, passed away in November from pneumonia.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,254
16,729
136
I fail to see what the problem is with capping the number of rounds a gun can hold to let’s say 5-8. Make the mechanism for reloading or changing the clip take more time.
Bar sales of modifications that allow skirting of the law.
Why on Earth does one need double digit rounds for hunting or home defense, why on Earth are bump stocks allowed to enable someone with a disability to fire a gun. How many people in the US use a bump stock for its stated purpose?
I fail to see why anyone needs to own armor piercing rounds. What valid use do they have regarding hunting or home defense?
Most NRA members support restrictions but the NRA fails to act. The NRA has become the marketing arm of gun manufacturers.
 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,148
4,848
136
I strongly suspect a lot more people would be shot every year if it was legal, haha. The deterrence effect of laws is pretty well established. Sure they clearly don’t stop everyone, but they certainly stop a bunch.

As for focusing on the why instead of the how, why not both?
Did you listen to the sheriff's speech telling people to call and tattle on their neighbors if you saw them doing something differently? That is a knee jerk reaction to a serious problem. Also law enforcement denies they had any advance warning on this guy when several people said he was a problem including the school which should've raised red flags immediately with them.

I'm for facial recognition systems at school entrances so when someone like this is detected on school grounds law enforcement can get an alert so they can immediately respond to remove the threat. We also need to address how people like this can purchase a weapon to help mitigate this.

As much as I hate to say it we are getting ever closer to the point where private sales of firearms might need to be restricted too perhaps requiring the sale to be handled by a FFL holder with mandatory paperwork filed for record of the transaction.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
I fail to see what the problem is with capping the number of rounds a gun can hold to let’s say 5-8. Make the mechanism for reloading or changing the clip take more time.
Bar sales of modifications that allow skirting of the law.
Why on Earth does one need double digit rounds for hunting or home defense, why on Earth are bump stocks allowed to enable someone with a disability to fire a gun. How many people in the US use a bump stock for its stated purpose?


These are the types of restrictions that I view as infringements on my rights and will not go for. These are the types of overreaching restrictions that make the NRA very much what it is today.
 
Jan 25, 2011
16,702
8,926
146
Did you listen to the sheriff's speech telling people to call and tattle on their neighbors if you saw them doing something differently? That is a knee jerk reaction to a serious problem. Also law enforcement denies they had any advance warning on this guy when several people said he was a problem including the school which should've raised red flags immediately with them.

I'm for facial recognition systems at school entrances so when someone like this is detected on school grounds law enforcement can get an alert so they can immediately respond to remove the threat. We also need to address how people like this can purchase a weapon so help mitigate this.

As much as I hate to say it we are getting ever closer to the point where private sales of firearms might need to be restricted too perhaps requiring the sale to be handled by a FFL holder with mandatory paperwork filed for record of the transaction.
This brings up an honest question that I'd be curious to know what peoples opinion is in the U.S.

Which is a greater violation of your personal freedoms. People calling the police non stop for what they perceive as something different, or having a cap on the number of rounds, modifications etc... that can be used with a firearm.
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
106
That's why it's a compromise. It takes time to feel the full effects. When a generation has grown up and been unable to largely purchase or own these rapid fire weapons, then their children won't be able to just walk in and take them either. Someone like Paddock would hopefully be caught up in the training and screening process. And by screening I mean they go back every 4 years or so for evaluation. It's a privilge, not a right to step beyond bolt action.

That's the best way to address it. Without confiscations, but with some immediate benefit and more serious ramifications down the road.

Why is 'bolt action' the dividing line? Why not muskets?
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
I fail to see what the problem is with capping the number of rounds a gun can hold to let’s say 5-8. Make the mechanism for reloading or changing the clip take more time.
Bar sales of modifications that allow skirting of the law.
Why on Earth does one need double digit rounds for hunting or home defense, why on Earth are bump stocks allowed to enable someone with a disability to fire a gun. How many people in the US use a bump stock for its stated purpose?
I fail to see why anyone needs to own armor piercing rounds. What valid use do they have regarding hunting or home defense?
Most NRA members support restrictions but the NRA fails to act. The NRA has become the marketing arm of gun manufacturers.

These are the types of restrictions I view as no infringement on my 2A rights and will eventually pass. This fighting of these common sense restrictions and the 10's of millions pumped into electing GOP candidates is really what makes the NRA very much what it is today.

Exactly why after 30 years of paying dues to the NRA that stops this year. As stated many of my hunting and shooting buddies will be following suit. We'll give our money to better organizations...
 

IJTSSG

Golden Member
Aug 12, 2014
1,122
278
136
This brings up an honest question that I'd be curious to know what peoples opinion is in the U.S.

Which is a greater violation of your personal freedoms. People calling the police non stop for what they perceive as something different, or having a cap on the number of rounds, modifications etc... that can be used with a firearm.

The latter.
 

mdram

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2014
1,512
208
106
for all the training screening ect. who is paying for that?

if its a too difficult for people to get an id to vote, per the court system.
then this is an even bigger issue for a constitutional right.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,707
5,462
136
Um its extremely simply to explain.

Restrictions increase the difficulty of access.
Decreased access leads to generally decreased demand.*
Decreased demand leads to decreased ownership.
Decreased ownership leads to less mass shootings (as well as less cultural fixation and worship of guns)

*Generally if you place impediments to people trying to get what they want you will decrease their actual getting what they want (see voter ID laws, prior authorizations for medical services used by insurance companies to keep doctors and patients from getting certain services, etc etc. The fact is if people have to work for something, whilst some will take the extra steps, a lot of people will just drop out). That's why if you say want people to get vaccines or exercise or pay their taxes on time or save for retirement and etc, governments have to focus on policies remove the impediments.

From a simple point of view:

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...ther-school-shootingbut-whos-counting/553412/
Some members of Congress have publicly lamented Wednesday’s shooting, emphasizing that it’s just the latest example of why political action on gun reform is so critical. Connecticut Democratic Senator Chris Murphy, who was in office at the time of the 2012 mass shooting at Sandy Hook elementary school, said to Congress in a floor speech Wednesday: “We are responsible for a level of mass atrocity that happens in this country with zero parallel anywhere else. As a parent, it scares me to death that this body doesn't take seriously the safety of my children, and it seems like a lot of parents in South Florida are going to be asking that same question later today.”

"Australia hasn't had a fatal mass shooting since 1996. Here's what it did":

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...shooting-since-1996-heres-what-did/340345002/
The country made sweeping gun control measures after a man killed 35 people with a semi-automatic weapon in a popular tourist area of Port Arthur, in Tasmania. Weeks after the April 1996 tragedy, the country and its states began banning rapid-fire guns to tamp down on mass shootings and then offered to buy the prohibited firearms.

Regarding gun control in Australia:

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/
During the buyback program, Australians sold 640,000 prohibited firearms to the government, and voluntarily surrendered about 60,000 non-prohibited firearms. In all, more than 700,000 weapons were surrendered, according to a Library of Congress report on Australian gun policy. One study says that the program reduced the number of guns in private hands by 20 percent.

Among other things, America's problems include:

1. Strong gun lobbies, which pull a lot of political strings
2. A national connection to guns, along with second-amendment rights
3. States/Federal government won't (currently) buy back guns

There have been a few gun buyback programs in the United States here & there, but not without issues:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_buyback_program#United_States

There were some interesting side effects:
What is believed to have been the first gun buyback program was in Baltimore in 1974. Gun homicides and assaults actually rose during the two-month program, and it was deemed a failure, though no reason for the crime rate increase was given.[8] Similar programs followed in other cities, including some cities that repeated their programs. However, no evaluation of such programs were published until 1994, after three researchers analyzed a 1992 buyback in Seattle, Washington. The study found that the "effect on decreasing violent crime and reducing firearm mortality is unknown."[9]
For two months in 1974, the Baltimore Police Department ran what is believed to have been the first gun buyback program in the U.S. Police commissioner Donald Pomerleau, not known as an advocate for strict gun control, reportedly came up with the idea while at a funeral for an officer who was shot in the line of duty. Operation PASS (People Against Senseless Shootings) paid a $50 "bounty" for surrendered guns and $100 for tips leading to the confiscation of illegal guns. Some bounty seekers attempted to game the system by buying cheap, new guns that retailed for $21.95 and then trying to turn them in. In all, the police collected 13,500 of firearms - mostly handguns - at a cost of over $660,000. However, the city's already high gun homicide and assault rates actually increased during the program, for which police officials offered no explanation.[8]
At an August 2012 buyback, the Detroit Police Department paid $16,820 for 365 guns, including six assault weapons and a few sawed-off shotguns. The guns were accepted "no questions asked" at a church where members had collected $18,000 to help get dangerous weapons off the street. People could receive from $50 to $100 for unloaded, operational weapons. Gun-carrying protesters offered those in line more money not to turn in their firearms.
The city of Seattle has experimented with Gun Buy Back Programs since the early 1990s.[21] Seattle's 1992 gun buyback was initiated in response to a string of shootings in a local neighborhood. The buyback program was watched with great interest given the local demographic and the generally positive public support for the buyback from residents of Seattle and the surrounding area. A public health survey titled "Money for Guns" was conducted and while it concluded that no statistically significant result was produced on Seattle's gun crime or gun death ratio, the report maintained that a larger buyback program would be sure to yield positive results.[22] Over 20 years later Seattle would again make headline for its bold gun buyback program in 2013, but perhaps not for the reasons the programs sponsors and organizers would have liked. While the program, could be considered a success, collecting more than 700 guns, handing out almost $70,000 in gift cards and even netting a Stinger missile launcher tube (minus the missile),[23] the program also had a widely unanticipated effect from the local gun buying community. Hundreds of gun buyers showed up to the event seeking to offer cash for valuable antiques or functioning second hand firearms. The lack of any need for background check in transactions involving private firearms sales turned the city sponsored event into an open air gun bazaar.[24] Since then Seattle has not suffered alone in its gun buyback program woes, with other cities experiencing similar problems, whether it be private sales or local gun owners taking advantage of lucrative gift card offers to unload rusted or non-functioning firearms onto the police.[25]

What that says to me, from a simplistic point of view, is that in order for real change to occur, it has to come from the top, not this piecemeal stuff, because then it's too easy to argue that only the bad guys have guns, so why should the good guys give them up? In Australia, while gun killings didn't go away, the massacres did:
“While 13 gun massacres (the killing of 4 or more people at one time) occurred in Australia in the 18 years before the NFA, resulting in more than one hundred deaths, in the 14 following years (and up to the present), there were no gun massacres.”

Per the other article above, one study said that the Australian buy-back program reduced the number of guns in private hands by 20%. Based on the facts that (1) it came from the top, (2) the government did a mandatory buy-back, and (3) there have been no mass shootings in 14 years since that happened, I would say it was pretty dang effective. Note that Australia did not ban ALL guns, just certain semi-automatic guns & self-loading rifles and shotguns, and also implemented stricter licensing & registration requirements. Compare that to America, where we have apparently had 25 school shootings since Columbine:

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/3...-school-shootings-since-columbine-live-on-air

Based on Australia's track record, this seems like a solvable problem.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,148
4,848
136
Exactly why after 30 years of paying dues to the NRA that stops this year. As stated many of my hunting and shooting buddies will be following suit. We'll give our money to better organizations...
I had to stop supporting them over a decade ago and each time they litter my mail with their propaganda I put it in the recycle.
 

IJTSSG

Golden Member
Aug 12, 2014
1,122
278
136
https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...bama-era-social-security-gun-prohibition-rule

Interesting. This isn't going to sit well with the ignorant fucktards who've been railing about the President revoking that EO.

From the article:
The plan drew fire not just from the NRA, but also from the ACLU and a wide range of mental health advocacy and treatment groups from across the political spectrum. Also opposing the plan was the National Council on Disability (NCD), an independent federal agency charged with advising the President, Congress, and other federal agencies regarding policies, programs, practices, and procedures that affect people with disabilities. The NCD issued a statement explaining:

Since the action was first proposed in 2013, NCD has consistently taken the position that equating the need for assistance in managing one's finances with a false presumption of incapacity in other areas of life, including possession of a firearm, unnecessarily and unreasonably deprives individuals with disabilities of a constitutional right and increases the stigma that [affects] those who may need a representative payee. The overly broad classification of “mental disorder,” includes a wide range of limitations and a shifting set of criteria relevant to whether or not one can engage in substantial gainful activity. NCD remains steadfast in our position that this classification remains irrelevant to the question of whether one can be a responsible gun owner.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
These are the types of restrictions I view as no infringement on my 2A rights and will eventually pass. These fighting of these common sense restrictions and the 10's of millions pumped into electing GOP candidates is really what makes the NRA very much what it is today.

Exactly why after 30 years of paying dues that stops this year. As stated many of my hunting and shooting buddies will be following suit. We'll give our money to better organizations...


To me they are an infringement and I think there are still many people that will fight them. I just don't see mag capacity limits as that big of a helper, but it certainly affects the rights of a huge number of gun owners. There are a lot of large capacity mags already out in the wild, and it is easy for someone to simply carry more mags or more guns.

To me suppressor bans, folding stock bans, capacity bans, "assault weapons" bans, etc. are simply the wrong way to go about the gun violence problem. More feel good stuff that will achieve very little to nothing.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
These are the types of restrictions I view as no infringement on my 2A rights and will eventually pass. This fighting of these common sense restrictions and the 10's of millions pumped into electing GOP candidates is really what makes the NRA very much what it is today.

Exactly why after 30 years of paying dues to the NRA that stops this year. As stated many of my hunting and shooting buddies will be following suit. We'll give our money to better organizations...

I joined the 2A Foundation. But am also a member of the NRA, and still plan on renewing my membership. I don't agree with a lot of what they are about, but I can't accept what the anti-2A'ers would have either. Lesser of two evils in my opinion.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
I find AR's fun to shoot but always snicker at my buddies who just had to go out and get one when they thought for one second their access to them *might* be taken away. They had no intentions on buying or owning one until the old tried and true Gunna take away muguns canard took foot in their minds. Our country will survive just fine with restrictions that make sense. If restrictions inconvenience your 2A rights that much, you might just be the kind of person who needs to be restricted...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
136
Did you listen to the sheriff's speech telling people to call and tattle on their neighbors if you saw them doing something differently? That is a knee jerk reaction to a serious problem. Also law enforcement denies they had any advance warning on this guy when several people said he was a problem including the school which should've raised red flags immediately with them.

I'm for facial recognition systems at school entrances so when someone like this is detected on school grounds law enforcement can get an alert so they can immediately respond to remove the threat. We also need to address how people like this can purchase a weapon to help mitigate this.

As much as I hate to say it we are getting ever closer to the point where private sales of firearms might need to be restricted too perhaps requiring the sale to be handled by a FFL holder with mandatory paperwork filed for record of the transaction.

Sadly I don’t think calling the cops earlier would have helped. I mean the school already had an armed police officer stationed there and it wasn't enough.

It's long, long past time that conservatives admit what we all know is true. It's the guns, it's the guns, it's the guns. The US isn't some particularly mentally ill place, the US isn't some uniquely violent culture. Just apply Occam's razor here... the most likely answer as to why we have this problem is that our country makes it uniquely easy to access tools of mass murder.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,148
4,848
136
To me suppressor bans, folding stock bans, capacity bans, "assault weapons" bans, etc. are simply the wrong way to go about the gun violence problem. More feel good stuff that will achieve very little to nothing.
That's how I feel about gun safety classes. Being former law enforcement I'm stunned by what I see people doing with guns. Many folks treat them like water guns which is dangerous.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,574
7,671
136
I joined the 2A Foundation. But am also a member of the NRA, and still plan on renewing my membership. I don't agree with a lot of what they are about, but I can't accept what the anti-2A'ers would have either. Lesser of two evils in my opinion.

People who are for reasonable gun regulations are not anti-2A'ers.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I fail to see what the problem is with capping the number of rounds a gun can hold to let’s say 5-8. Make the mechanism for reloading or changing the clip take more time.
Bar sales of modifications that allow skirting of the law.
Why on Earth does one need double digit rounds for hunting or home defense, why on Earth are bump stocks allowed to enable someone with a disability to fire a gun. How many people in the US use a bump stock for its stated purpose?
I fail to see why anyone needs to own armor piercing rounds. What valid use do they have regarding hunting or home defense?
Most NRA members support restrictions but the NRA fails to act. The NRA has become the marketing arm of gun manufacturers.

Because again most of these questions depend on your use case. If I'm at the firing range and limited to using only small-cap magazines or something that "makes the mechanism for reloading take more time" that's both a serious PITA and doing nothing to stop school shootings or whatever other policy objective you have. We have a rough analogue to guns in cars; you can own a NASCAR vehicle but that doesn't mean it's "street legal." Time, place, and manner laws work well for all sorts of products and activities that may be misused and cause harm to others, are firearms so completely unique they can't be handled likewise? Part of this discussion is going to be forgoing one-size fits all nationwide bans or restrictions since what's appropriate for someone in Brooklyn isn't appropriate for someone in the Alaskan bush. The other part is a recognition by all that life is dangerous and we can't stop evil people from doing horrendous things thus we need to do an appropriate cost-benefit analysis of proposed changes so they don't end up overly damaging of civil liberties (like post- 9/11 evesdropping by the NSA) or worthless feel-good security performance art (like the TSA at airports). Plenty of recent gun control laws fall more into to the feel-good performance art than actually something which would have a positive impact.
 
Reactions: Kaido and IJTSSG
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