Fontana, CA cops lie and torture man into false confession. Threaten to kill his dog.

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skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,201
5,052
146
In other words to work public sector you take what wages and conditions they see fit to give you, and be happy?
Once again, fuck that shit. Competition levels the field overall, but workers still need representation on the smaller level. Otherwise you end up with management treading the crap out of people from time to time.
I've seen it happen. My brother was the rep for city transit system and he tells the tales. Now his buddy ran into some nutty shit in a nearby city in the same field. The union stuck up for him.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,623
49,185
136
In other words to work public sector you take what wages and conditions they see fit to give you, and be happy?
Once again, fuck that shit. Competition levels the field overall, but workers still need representation on the smaller level. Otherwise you end up with management treading the crap out of people from time to time.
I've seen it happen. My brother was the rep for city transit system and he tells the tales. Now his buddy ran into some nutty shit in a nearby city in the same field. The union stuck up for him.
Public sector unions are a cancer.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,201
5,052
146
Says you, who have likely not worked an honest day's work in his or her life.
Just like my friend Dave I'll lay it on the line. I have nothing to hide. I've worked union and non-union jobs for 45 years. I've walked the picket line and not crossed it.
If you picked out public sector unions as your cancer, how to you view the obscenely rich bastiges at the top 1% with the vast bulk of the wealth? what the fuck are they?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,783
20,140
136
In other words to work public sector you take what wages and conditions they see fit to give you, and be happy?
Once again, fuck that shit. Competition levels the field overall, but workers still need representation on the smaller level. Otherwise you end up with management treading the crap out of people from time to time.
I've seen it happen. My brother was the rep for city transit system and he tells the tales. Now his buddy ran into some nutty shit in a nearby city in the same field. The union stuck up for him.

I'm with you. His approach is way too black and white and extreme. It's asinine.

I think public sector unions should exist but be limited to only having power over wage and benefits negotiation, but nothing to do with the job performance side of things, because that is where they start protecting shitty cops and teachers.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,201
5,052
146
No union can support a member breaking the law or the policies in the aggreement. The agreement bites both ways. Everybody says otherwise but I have seen members get shitcanned in a heartbeat and the union was in full agreement.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,623
49,185
136
Says you, who have likely not worked an honest day's work in his or her life.
Just like my friend Dave I'll lay it on the line. I have nothing to hide. I've worked union and non-union jobs for 45 years. I've walked the picket line and not crossed it.
If you picked out public sector unions as your cancer, how to you view the obscenely rich bastiges at the top 1% with the vast bulk of the wealth? what the fuck are they?
Wait why do you think I haven’t worked an honest day.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,783
20,140
136
No union can support a member breaking the law or the policies in the aggreement. The agreement bites both ways. Everybody says otherwise but I have seen members get shitcanned in a heartbeat and the union was in full agreement.

that is not reality when it comes to police and teachers unions.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,201
5,052
146
Your support of management was my giveaway. Perhaps you have worked and forgotten what it was like.
So what have you done?
Like I said, nothing to hide. 5 years in aerospace, 33 years as an operating engineer.
Another 7 out of the trades, running equipment or flying. It's all been hourly, no salaries.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,623
49,185
136
Your support of management was my giveaway. Perhaps you have worked and forgotten what it was like.
So what have you done?
Like I said, nothing to hide. 5 years in aerospace, 33 years as an operating engineer.
Another 7 out of the trades, running equipment or flying. It's all been hourly, no salaries.
So what do you think I am wrong about?
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,201
5,052
146
That disbanding public sector unions will solve the problems.
It won't help fill the shortages in applicants, and it absolutely will send the wrong message regarding unions in general.
No matter how they try to couch it, it will be the death knell for Davis-Bacon and living wages across the nation. Nothing would make the repugs happier. Right to work for all. Not the right to get ahead unless you are some management puke.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,623
49,185
136
That disbanding public sector unions will solve the problems.
It won't help fill the shortages in applicants, and it absolutely will send the wrong message regarding unions in general.
Have you guys thought about the fundamental issues with public sector unions?

Like for example why the police exist with impunity.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,201
5,052
146
IF you think it's the union you are misguided. It is due to the law and they being the long arm of it.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,824
2,083
136
I've long been pro-police. You can see that from some of my past postings. But I've also been very clear that this country, and I do mean the entire country, needs to re-evaluate when police are disciplined, how they are disciplined, and whether they can be shielded from criminal charges.

This is an example of two police officers that 100% need to be criminally charged. Reading some of the details of what they did, they inflicted psychological harm on a man with depression. They tortured this man to the point that this man was suicidal and confessed to killing his father, who was very much alive. $900k payment seems too little, considering they inflicted what is possibly lifelong psychological damage to this person.
 
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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,522
759
146
In other words to work public sector you take what wages and conditions they see fit to give you, and be happy?

It would be more equitable than the current "rob Peter to pay Paul" arrangement.

No matter how they try to couch it, it will be the death knell for Davis-Bacon and living wages across the nation.

Public sector unions have monopolized services and extract rents from the non-unionized private sector. What little they do for non-members is more than offset by the taxation.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,201
5,052
146
more rehetoric. At least from you it is honest party line bullshit. With the others they don't know they are repeating your poison for you.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,783
20,140
136
I suspect it's more the people than the union itself. Ask yourself: would more police illegality come to light without the unions? I think they'd close ranks just the same.
I disagree. Just look at why we like unions. Sure a lot of workers want more money but they are almost powerless when they don't organize as a union. Closing ranks doesn't get you higher wages being, in a union does. Collective bargaining collective power.

It's the same thing with the unions protecting bad behavior. Without the union it would be far far better.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,534
12,658
146
I disagree. Just look at why we like unions. Sure a lot of workers want more money but they are almost powerless when they don't organize as a union. Closing ranks doesn't get you higher wages being, in a union does. Collective bargaining collective power.

It's the same thing with the unions protecting bad behavior. Without the union it would be far far better.
Collective bargaining is different from protection from consequences or auditing. Collective bargaining requires everyone to speak with one voice, protection just requires specific people to look the other way, lie, hide shit, etc.

We have had people in power protecting each other for much longer than we've had unions.
 
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akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,824
2,083
136
I disagree. Just look at why we like unions. Sure a lot of workers want more money but they are almost powerless when they don't organize as a union. Closing ranks doesn't get you higher wages being, in a union does. Collective bargaining collective power.

It's the same thing with the unions protecting bad behavior. Without the union it would be far far better.

Agree. I also think people need to understand why and where "unions are always evil" comes from.

Being younger, I never quite understood unions. I always thought they were evil. And you know why? Because big corporations tell you they are evil. It is in the interest of all big corporations, and that includes media, to tell you unions are evil.

Now, being older, I understand unions do a lot for the little guys. This doesn't mean some unions aren't too powerful in their respective fields. Police unions definitely shield the bad apples too much. It's one thing to fight for more benefits which I fully support, but it's another to gain contracts that have become detrimental to society in general. In a more light-hearted instance, the union that governs umpires in baseball is way too powerful. Some umps are egotistical jackasses (Angel Hernandez) who can barely do their job, but the umpire union protects them and they can't even be fired for being shitty. That's unions protecting their members to the detriment of their very industry.

Unions do fight for the benefits of the working class. The missus works a job with a strong multi-state union. If it wasn't a union job, she'd be making maybe 1/2 to a max of 3/5ths of what she makes now. She would have no medical benefits. She would have no increase in vacation time for number of years worked. She would have no sick day benefits. She would have no retirement benefits.

There was actually an incidence of job creep, at first due to some older employees being out, and other situations. Some employees were out sick, and others left the job due to the pandemic and never came back. They're short-handed at work. My wife complained to the manager, but they assured her it was temporary, and would clear up when they hired more workers. So after a few months, she told the union. And her duties were reduced back to what the original job called for. She did try to be understanding and worked through it to give management time to resolve the issue. But when that doesn't work, as it often doesn't, she had a union that helped her fix the issue.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,201
5,052
146
It's the same thing with the unions protecting bad behavior. Without the union it would be far far better.
How so?
Once again cite some examples. All you are posting is rhetoric, and guess who owns that line?
GOP. You are spouting a key GOP talking point as they are set on breaking any union they can. It's been a cornerstone of their policies, and you are personally carrying water for them.
Organized labor is not a wall of solidarity in this country. Go to Europe to see that.
It is more like Jenga, and you cannot just extract the vast swath of public sector organizations out of it and hope it will stand.
The GOP faithful are standing by with hammers and mallets hoping to break it down.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,074
8,103
136
Public sector unions are a cancer.
I don’t necessarily agree. In my state, teachers can’t strike. They can only work to rule (no coming in early, no after school meetings). The police stop working the extra 10-20 hours that the city relies on, plus they start calling in sick ( blue flu). The public starts to notice and the police get what they want. The teacher have to fight tooth and nail to slow down the decline and benefits and continual loses in pay relative to inflation.

My wife just found out that a first year policeman makes 66k/yr. With 16 months of academy training and with top flight benefits. She has a masters and 34 years of teaching experience and she makes 74k/yr. Totally makes sense.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,120
2,166
136
I've been binging on police audit type videos on YT lately. It's really opened my eyes on the crap police do around the US that we don't normally hear about. It's changed the way I would react to being stopped by police in the future.




 
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