Footage of two black men handcuffed in Starbucks prompts police investigation

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Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
I'm going with "unfair." When a rule is not fairly or evenly applied, it ceases to be something that is legitimately used.

May I remind you of what Paratus said? Because it seems to be the crux of this matter, as experienced by these two men, the several other patrons in that store at the time who stood up for them to the police, and, not for nothing, the CEO of Starbucks:



"Gentleman and ladies" of the same color as these two men were once aggressively persuaded to quit trying to patronize lunch counters in the American South.



Racism has a robust and all too recent history in our country.




The most virulent and disturbing forms of racism may have gone somewhat underground these days, but President "He says what we're thinking" has brought it back out.

The Trump Racism Renaissance aside, racism has and continues to damn well exists in more "subtle" forms. Hence the initiative of the Starbucks CEO regarding "unconscious bias."

These two men went to jail when they didn't have to. They took a stand.

YOU NOT REALIZING WHY -- and simply tut-tutting that they didn't leave when asked because rulezzz IS YOUR DEEP SEATED SOCIAL IGNORANCE AND BLINDNESS.

My deep-seated social ignorance and blindness? I don't think so. I am very well aware of the difference between real racism and personal accountability, and I took the time to point out before I even made a statement regarding personal accountability the importance of consistently applying the rules in one's own establishment. I've also managed thousands of people in my career, and my statements regarding consistently applying rules don't just come from some highfalutin book I read, but from experience. That Starbucks manager shot themselves in the foot by failing to consistently enforce the rules, and they are part responsible for this escalation.

The other part is this though. I'm sorry you can't comprehend what I stated when you attempted to paint me as some racist bigot, however at the end of the day, these two boys weren't paying customers. And when asked by management to leave because they were taking up seats reserved for paying customers, they refused and chose to escalate. When asked by the cops to leave (which, it's sad it even got to that point), they refused and chose to escalate. Does driving over the speed limit because "everyone else is doing it" make it okay?

It's called personal fucking accountability, and it seems to be lacking these days in an age where we can just cry for attention on social media. If I were one of those boys and a manager asked me to leave because I hadn't bought anything yet, you know what I had done? I'd have left! Why? Because I'm a mature enough individual and I can recognize when I, personally, am in violation of an establishment's rules. I don't care what other people are doing. I care about what I'm doing. I was also taught respect and honor growing up, and I personally recognize what privileges are earned when you're a paying customer and when you're not.

Also, I grew up in the south. I know what real racism is, and like you pointed out, it's disgusting. However, this is not it.
 
Reactions: VirtualLarry

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,271
9,352
146
My deep-seated social ignorance and blindness? I don't think so.
Of course you don't. That's the problem.

I'm sorry you can't comprehend what I stated when you attempted to paint me as some racist bigot, however at the end of the day, these two boys [bolding and highlighting mine] weren't paying customers.
^^^ Case in point.

Referring to adult African Americans as BOYS?

That's some "deep-seated social ignorance and blindness" right there, Mister!
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The fact that both Starbucks's official response includes the words "racial profiling" and they're reportedly also setting up "unconscious bias" training for their staff should be sufficent to convince most reasonable people where they think the fault lies.
Starbucks is a business and their response is convincing to most reasonable people that they need to placate the Twitter mob, independent of guilt, especially in an age where a Tweet can take out your stock price.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
I'm going with "unfair." When a rule is not fairly or evenly applied, it ceases to be something that is legitimately used.

May I remind you of what Paratus said? Because it seems to be the crux of this matter, as experienced by these two men, the several other patrons in that store at the time who stood up for them to the police, and, not for nothing, the CEO of Starbucks:



"Gentleman and ladies" of the same color as these two men were once aggressively persuaded to quit trying to patronize lunch counters in the American South.



Racism has a robust and all too recent history in our country.




The most virulent and disturbing forms of racism may have gone somewhat underground these days, but President "He says what we're thinking" has brought it back out.

The Trump Racism Renaissance aside, racism has and continues to damn well exists in more "subtle" forms. Hence the initiative of the Starbucks CEO regarding "unconscious bias."

These two men went to jail when they didn't have to. They took a stand.

YOU NOT REALIZING WHY -- and simply tut-tutting that they didn't leave when asked because rulezzz IS YOUR DEEP SEATED SOCIAL IGNORANCE AND BLINDNESS.

The US is one of the least racist nations on earth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ly-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.81ca989cd0b7



It is incumbent on conservatives to realize that racism still exists. It is incumbent on progressives to realize that every racist transgression isn't the harbinger of Jim Crow's return.
 

96Firebird

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 2010
5,712
316
126
Of course you don't. That's the problem.

^^^ Case in point.

Referring to adult African Americans as BOYS?

That's some "deep-seated social ignorance and blindness" right there, Mister!

This is your response to his well thought out post? This is why no one is taking you seriously.
 

bigboxes

Lifer
Apr 6, 2002
39,145
12,027
146
You are correct. If they were white, they probably would not have been asked to leave. And I agree, consistency is a big issue here. Mindless is still making a few valid points though. Personal accountability is at play here. The two gentlemen, when asked to leave by management, did not.

A mature individual would have said to themselves, "Okay, I feel singled out here, but I'm still personally in violation of the rules, so I'm going to comply."

An immature individual would have said to themselves, "Okay, but everyone else is doing it, so why should I have to leave? I'm not going to."

The two gentlemen chose the latter route, and it escalated. I know, I know, the world watches in amazement at the stupidity of this entire situation, but at the end of the day, these two gentlemen did, in fact, have a huge part to play in why it escalated.

Two big lessons out of all this:

1. Be consistent with the rules you establish. You can avoid a lot of issues that way.
2. Hold yourself accountable to the rules, and when asked to leave, don't be an idiot and escalate the situation.

I wouldn't have been asked to leave. They shouldn't have to wait until their chaperone (white friend) shows up to say "It's ok. They're with me." I disagree that they should leave even when asked to. Sometimes you need to stick up for yourself.
 
Reactions: Perknose

Snarf Snarf

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
399
327
136
No, it's not at all ordinary to go to a coffee shop and not order yet if you intended to be a paying customer.

Please do go to a coffee shop soon and take notes if you doubt this. There might be a minor lag in time but not this.

As someone who worked in hospitality and service for years, I can verify that it is 100% normal behavior to enter a place and not order until your party arrives. Now it is not required, but is usually considered good etiquette to tell an employee you're waiting on a party so you can all order together.

There is a Starbucks 100 feet in front of me as we speak, and there's at least 5 people on the patio right now that are using the Wi-Fi and haven't ordered anything yet. It is not their corporate policy to remove people from the shop that are just hanging out. They enjoy the reputation of being a meeting spot, it brings them more business overall. It makes them the de facto student studying spot because poor college kids can go there and use Wi-Fi and meet class mates to work on projects. What this does is secure future patronage to the business. When the kids can afford coffee, they will buy it at Starbucks, due to their positive experiences there. If they got removed for hanging out there, I can guarantee you they would never go back to a Starbucks.

If this was a small business with a single proprietor this would be a non-story. The reason this is a story is because Starbucks has a corporate policy, and this action was not in line with the corporate policy. These two young men got targeted for some reason by the employee who called the police, who according to witnesses said were causing no disturbances and minding their own business waiting for the third member of their party.

As an employee and a manager I have only ever removed two customers from my restaurant/store one was a drunken asshole who was harassing people, and the other was a homeless person who was panhandling in front of my door that I asked multiple times to not do so directly in front of my business. We were down the street from the local high school, and I would even give free fountain drinks to the kids that would come hang out. When they had money they would come eat every chance they got and would bring their families back on weekends all due to the positive experience they had hanging out at my restaurant.

People can go blue in the face saying business have the legal right to remove anyone for any reason, but it doesn't mean that they should. It also doesn't mean they are immune to criticism for the decisions they made that are within their rights.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,289
28,144
136
I mean, I guess it'd have to be proven to be racism, but that looks a whole lot like racism. Note, I don't mean Starbucks, just the asshat manager/employee.
Here is exchange between white patron who was given bathroom code, black patron who was denied code just moments before and the store manager.
In the newly resurfaced video that was originally posted in January, a white Starbucks customer named Westin tells Ward he had no problems getting access to the bathroom.

"You asked for the code and they just gave it to you, right?" Ward could be heard asking.

"Yeah," Westin responded.

"Before you made a purchase?"

"Yeah," Westin said.

Ward, who was refused the code minutes earlier, then confronts a Starbucks manager about the apparent double standard.

"This is a private business," the Starbucks employee said.

"This is not your business though," Ward said.

"I am the store manager."

"Okay, you may be the store manager –" Ward started.

"And I'm asking you to leave right now. You're actually not allowed to be in here anymore. You need to leave," the manager said.

Ward said a security guard escorted him out before police arrived.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,043
10,224
136
The US is one of the least racist nations on earth.



Wow, what a great way to determine how racist people are, by asking them upfront. Why don't we ask the employee whether they were being racist! I'm super-sure that they'll give us an honest answer if they were being racist. /s

Out of curiosity: Have you ever heard of the expression "I'm not racist, but..." or "some of my best friends are <insert enthicity>"? Have you ever heard of someone admitting that what they were being racist during that conversation?

Confirmation bias, your avatar is Atreus21.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,289
28,144
136

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,038
4,800
136
Reactions: HomerJS

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Wow, what a great way to determine how racist people are, by asking them upfront. Why don't we ask the employee whether they were being racist! I'm super-sure that they'll give us an honest answer if they were being racist. /s

Out of curiosity: Have you ever heard of the expression "I'm not racist, but..." or "some of my best friends are <insert enthicity>"? Have you ever heard of someone admitting that what they were being racist during that conversation?

Confirmation bias, your avatar is Atreus21.

Racist until proven non-racist. If you say you're not racist, you're a racist. And if proven non-racist, you're probably lying or there's an error somewhere.

Unfalsifiable certainty of racism, thy name is progressive.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,289
28,144
136
Racist until proven non-racist. If you say you're not racist, you're a racist. And if proven non-racist, you're probably lying or there's an error somewhere.

Unfalsifiable certainty of racism, thy name is progressive.
Less of an assumption of racist but more of an assumption the inaccuracy of this poll.

I noticed a large swath of Africa they didn't ask. Like most of it.
Unless population too sparse to poll
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Racist until proven non-racist. If you say you're not racist, you're a racist. And if proven non-racist, you're probably lying or there's an error somewhere.

Unfalsifiable certainty of racism, thy name is progressive.

Oh give me a break. I don't believe for a second that you honestly think you get an accurate description of who is racist or not by walking up and asking them if they are a racist. I mean how many times have you heard someone say "I'm not a racist but..." and then say something super racist? By your standards they pass the poll as non-racists! After all, they told you so.
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
23,785
4,965
146
You are correct. If they were white, they probably would not have been asked to leave. And I agree, consistency is a big issue here. Mindless is still making a few valid points though. Personal accountability is at play here. The two gentlemen, when asked to leave by management, did not.

A mature individual been-through-this-before African American would have said to themselves, "Okay, I feel singled out here because of my race, but I'm still personally in violation of the rules, so I'm going to comply, because they told me to"

An immature individual African individual, who is tired of this happening to him, would have said to themselves, "Okay, but everyone else is doing it, so why should I have to leave? I am only waiting for my friend to show up, I'm not going to be pushed around like this anymore"

The two gentlemen chose the latter route, and it escalated. I know, I know, the world watches in amazement at the stupidity of this entire situation, but at the end of the day, these two gentlemen did, in fact, have a huge part to play in why it escalated.

Two big lessons out of all this:

1. Be consistent with the rules you establish. You can avoid a lot of issues that way.
2. Hold yourself accountable to the rules, and when asked to leave, don't be an idiot and escalate the situation.


FTFY^^^

And no, the world in not watching in amazement of the stupidity of the situation.
Quit trying to not justify, the obvious.

You have a serious problem when you are still calling African American men, "boys"?
These were full grown men.

From your post above:
"If I were one of those boys and a manager asked me to leave because I hadn't bought anything yet, you know what I had done? I'd have left!"

"http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...e-investigation.2543371/page-10#post-39388932"
 
Last edited:
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Many restaurants will not seat you unless your entire party is present.

Also, would you go into a restaurant, sit down, not order anything and not notify the server that you are waiting for a member of your party or of your intent to eventually order something? Don’t you think a manager will inevitably visit your table.

None of the above applies to this situation but feel free to tell us more stories.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,597
29,300
136
Racist until proven non-racist. If you say you're not racist, you're a racist. And if proven non-racist, you're probably lying or there's an error somewhere.

Unfalsifiable certainty of racism, thy name is progressive.
Complete straw man. Please try again.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Oh give me a break. I don't believe for a second that you honestly think you get an accurate description of who is racist or not by walking up and asking them if they are a racist. I mean how many times have you heard someone say "I'm not a racist but..." and then say something super racist? By your standards they pass the poll as non-racists! After all, they told you so.

This is more heads I win tails you lose. If you say you're a racist, you're a racist. If you say you're not a racist, you're a racist.

The survey asked if the respondent would have a problem living next door to someone of a different race. That's a much more honest and concrete question than, "Are you a racist."
 
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