For all the web developers out there....

[PhatoseAlpha]

My stats for a similiar non-technical website are very much the same as alkemysts. As much as I like firefox, the simple reality is the people coming to the website are 90% or so IE users. I develop using Firefox, but check for IE before anything goes up, simply because I have to - it's what the people who come to the site use.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: Train
I really hate it when people bring up "standards" puhleese I.E. is the most used, the most coded for, therefore it IS the standard browser. Bitch and moan all you want about some 3rd party published so called standard.

Look at turbo pascal through the 80's and 90's Borland was the standard because they dominated the market. When the ISO or whoever it was claiming to define the pascal standard didnt keep up with the times, Borland went ahead without them. Colleges taugh using Borland's version, guess what the real standard was? Borland Pascal, not the "internationaly accepted standard"

All I hear is the wail of a MS drone.....

I do agree though that MS have their own standards, and they truly do not care about the www standards.

PS: Internet Explorer does not dominate the market.

Thats a pretty stupid response, ya I'm a "drone" :roll: What are you, 12?

Then you just repeat what everyone else keeps saying "standards" pfft, reread my post, he who dominates the market IS the standard. Look at history, being better, or matching up with some published wannabe standard means nothing. Betamax was "the standard" but VHS won, because more people started using it. I.E. could be the worst browser possible, but if the vast majority of people use it, its still "The" standard browser.

Computers have standards to follow. W3C is the standard setter, not microsoft. MS is half ass trying to follow with IE7, but they still failed. There is a reason there is an open document standard being followed, there is a reason there is a TCP/IP standard. IE's use of CSS doesn't even make sense. CSS wasn't created by MS, therefore, they are not the standards setters.

EDIT: I just finished reading the rest of the thread. I agree to an extent with some of you. IE is what is used, so we must code for it, there is no going around it. Nothing pisses me off more than having to open IE for a certain website because it pops up and said it only works in IE.

I code for FF first because it makes sense, not because I'm a fanboi. I code for FF first, IE second, and the rest when I get time.

EDIT II:

Bowser stats
IE: 9,225

• IE 7: 4,764
  IE 6: 4,451

Firefox: 840
Safari: 163
Mozilla: 30
Opera: 14
Netscape: 12
Mozilla Compatible: 5
Playstation 3: 1
Samsung SGH-I607: 1

840 unique users visitors from FF is enough for me to make sure its compatible... the number is only going to grow.

 

[esun]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: esun

The only traffic you are potentially losing is site visitors who don't return to your site because they remember that it sucks. But if your content is decent and at least accessible, they come back anyway and put up with it. Hell, I even put up with flash sites occasionally if I need to see the content.

But that's the point. I'm not saying that IE doesn't have a majority of the browser market. I'm not even trying to preach that people should design for FF, Opera, and/or other non-IE browsers. I'm simply saying that the arguments being made against designing for non-IE browsers by citing monthly traffic numbers make no sense. I just don't see how people can miss the stupidity of an argument like, "Well, most people that visited my site last month use IE, therefore I shouldn't care that my site looks like ass in non-IE browsers because I'm not missing out on many customers."

Because you don't understand business. If those numbers showed it would pay off to serve up pages to a Wii, people would have their teams on it.

We see 3% mac users. Our site doesnt work well with them. We aren't going out to buy Mac's at this time to cater to them as we have a ton of development that brings way more than that 3% to the table.

Please listen this time. I'm not going to bother posting again. If you see that 3% of your visitors in a month are Mac users, that doesn't mean that you are missing out on 3% of potential consumers by not having a Mac-compatible website. That is all.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: esun
Please listen this time. I'm not going to bother posting again. If you see that 3% of your visitors in a month are Mac users, that doesn't mean that you are missing out on 3% of potential consumers by not having a Mac-compatible website. That is all.

That was pointless to even post. No shit. You know red cars are really red too?

In business you strive though to reach the most you can out of a group, in this case the mac users which are 3%.

We are looking at 3% is not worth it because of how many we can convert. Even at 100% they are not worth it. That is the point.

 

[troytime]

i'm not going to argue ie vs ff

i use ie because to me it seems faster, plus i like the way the keyboard shortcuts work in ie vs ff (ctrl+tab to get to the address bar is my favorite)
for me, its easier to develop in IE and then make it work in firefox

i also always recomend firefox when people ask. I make my wife and kids use firefox
i use firefox if i'm browsing site thats i don't trust (you know what i'm talking about)

as for stats, the site i work for gets millions of visits each day, our stats show about 60% using IE

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Computers have standards to follow. W3C is the standard setter, not microsoft...

Yet way more computers follow MS than W3C... that should tell you about how credible the W3C is.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Computers have standards to follow. W3C is the standard setter, not microsoft...

Yet way more computers follow MS than W3C... that should tell you about how credible the W3C is.

it shows how powerful MS is that is all.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: esun

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: esun

The only traffic you are potentially losing is site visitors who don't return to your site because they remember that it sucks. But if your content is decent and at least accessible, they come back anyway and put up with it. Hell, I even put up with flash sites occasionally if I need to see the content.

But that's the point. I'm not saying that IE doesn't have a majority of the browser market. I'm not even trying to preach that people should design for FF, Opera, and/or other non-IE browsers. I'm simply saying that the arguments being made against designing for non-IE browsers by citing monthly traffic numbers make no sense. I just don't see how people can miss the stupidity of an argument like, "Well, most people that visited my site last month use IE, therefore I shouldn't care that my site looks like ass in non-IE browsers because I'm not missing out on many customers."

Because you don't understand business. If those numbers showed it would pay off to serve up pages to a Wii, people would have their teams on it.

We see 3% mac users. Our site doesnt work well with them. We aren't going out to buy Mac's at this time to cater to them as we have a ton of development that brings way more than that 3% to the table.

Please listen this time. I'm not going to bother posting again. If you see that 3% of your visitors in a month are Mac users, that doesn't mean that you are missing out on 3% of potential consumers by not having a Mac-compatible website. That is all.

If your stats say 3%, you're going to be pretty damn close that no matter what. Broken compatibility will not keep away returning visitors if your content is at least accessible and important to them. Of those that do not return, there's only going to be a tiny fraction that avoid your site because of compatibility issues; the majority will not return because your site just doesn't have the content to bring them back. And I'm speaking of minor compatibility/aesthetics issues here, not major problems. If you've got major problems with compatibility/usability, then you're coding wrong anyway.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Computers have standards to follow. W3C is the standard setter, not microsoft...

Yet way more computers follow MS than W3C... that should tell you about how credible the W3C is.

it shows how powerful MS is that is all.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/standard

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Computers have standards to follow. W3C is the standard setter, not microsoft...

Yet way more computers follow MS than W3C... that should tell you about how credible the W3C is.

it shows how powerful MS is that is all.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/standard

something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.

w3c is the approved model.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Computers have standards to follow. W3C is the standard setter, not microsoft...

Yet way more computers follow MS than W3C... that should tell you about how credible the W3C is.

it shows how powerful MS is that is all.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/standard

something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.

w3c is the approved model.

x2

Microsoft is not a standard

http://www.w3.org/Consortium/ <--- take a quick read.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Meh. General Consent beats authority every time. And when 80%+ of browsers are using IE, it's the basis of comparison.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: PhatoseAlpha
Meh. General Consent beats authority every time. And when 80%+ of browsers are using IE, it's the basis of comparison.

Not if you actually RESPECT the authority figure.

I make my code work in IE, not because I respect Microsoft, but because I want to make sure the page looks acceptable to those users using it. Even if IE was a minor player I'd do the same. It's a browser some people use, therefore you cannot ignore it. Couldn't give a shit less about IE otherwise.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: PhatoseAlpha
Meh. General Consent beats authority every time. And when 80%+ of browsers are using IE, it's the basis of comparison.

Not if you actually RESPECT the authority figure.

I make my code work in IE, not because I respect Microsoft, but because I want to make sure the page looks acceptable to those users using it. Even if IE was a minor player I'd do the same. It's a browser some people use, therefore you cannot ignore it. Couldn't give a shit less about IE otherwise.

So your pages all render fine in Game Console browsers too? Good old lynx?

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: PhatoseAlpha
Meh. General Consent beats authority every time. And when 80%+ of browsers are using IE, it's the basis of comparison.

Not if you actually RESPECT the authority figure.

I make my code work in IE, not because I respect Microsoft, but because I want to make sure the page looks acceptable to those users using it. Even if IE was a minor player I'd do the same. It's a browser some people use, therefore you cannot ignore it. Couldn't give a shit less about IE otherwise.

So your pages all render fine in Game Console browsers too? Good old lynx?

Going to extremes now? Game console browsers? Give me a break. Blackberry browsers or PDA's is an argument to make, don't be ridiculous.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: PhatoseAlpha
Meh. General Consent beats authority every time. And when 80%+ of browsers are using IE, it's the basis of comparison.

Not if you actually RESPECT the authority figure.

I make my code work in IE, not because I respect Microsoft, but because I want to make sure the page looks acceptable to those users using it. Even if IE was a minor player I'd do the same. It's a browser some people use, therefore you cannot ignore it. Couldn't give a shit less about IE otherwise.

So your pages all render fine in Game Console browsers too? Good old lynx?

Going to extremes now? Game console browsers? Give me a break. Blackberry browsers or PDA's is an argument to make, don't be ridiculous.

You were talking about minor players. Supporting Macintosh has been brought up in this thread as if one coded right pages should work with all browsers.

In reality you can have perfect code and even a major browser has fits with it.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: PhatoseAlpha
Meh. General Consent beats authority every time. And when 80%+ of browsers are using IE, it's the basis of comparison.

Not if you actually RESPECT the authority figure.

I make my code work in IE, not because I respect Microsoft, but because I want to make sure the page looks acceptable to those users using it. Even if IE was a minor player I'd do the same. It's a browser some people use, therefore you cannot ignore it. Couldn't give a shit less about IE otherwise.

So your pages all render fine in Game Console browsers too? Good old lynx?

Going to extremes now? Game console browsers? Give me a break. Blackberry browsers or PDA's is an argument to make, don't be ridiculous.

You were talking about minor players. Supporting Macintosh has been brought up in this thread as if one coded right pages should work with all browsers.

In reality you can have perfect code and even a major browser has fits with it.

You mean like IE?

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
You mean like IE?

Like ANY browser. Whether it be because of the physical rendering or scripts not running right.

I have about the same experience with IE vs FF not showing a page right as well as having to switch browsers while surfing.