damn if you are alienating all non-IE7 users hope you don't rely on sales.
I am guessing your site works regardless of intentionally supporting older browsers though.
Originally posted by: NanoStuff
Work has dropped support for IE6. Everyone is told it site may not function properly below IE7. Don't like it, get lost, not worth our time.
I don't see how someone can call themselves a "real" web developer and not develop for FF or other standards following browsers.
CSS is easier to lay out a website in once you understand it. The problem with you people who refuse to use CSS is that you just can't wrap your head around it. o0o0oh, yeah... I said it.
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This is funny, making it work for IE. In the real world, web developers target IE and leave it to the geeks making mssucks.com to work in firecrotch and all the other browsers nobody cares about. Corporate world is 99.9999% IE. All I do--all the developers I know ever do--is build something for IE and never bother testing in other browsers because if they don't work, who gives a crap. It's not corporate policy to run the other nonsense anyway. Our company is 100% IE and the IT department will not even bother supporting firecrotch and others. Back when I worked at a consulting company all of our clients also were IE on the corporate environment and in the few cases where we created apps for external users, IE was the audience. Now, a site like amazon/ebay needs to cater to the anti-MS cultists, but on a smaller scale it's just a waste of time if there are other issues with other browsers. Frankly, I don't know if there are; I have not loaded firecrotch in a long time and it's not at all in my future, either. It's a debate best kept on the pages of anandtech.
A link from w3schools.com could show that firecrotch is holding steady at 90% market share. Wouldn't make an ounce of difference to business realities, though.
Firecrotch, nutscrape, oprah, all browsers we don't care about. I've found nothing irks a firecrotch user like somebody who doesn't care enough to bother with it. I use IE on both of my home computers. Now, it's not as bad as mac users who are pained at the total contentedness windows users have, but it's closeOriginally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This is funny, making it work for IE. In the real world, web developers target IE and leave it to the geeks making mssucks.com to work in firecrotch and all the other browsers nobody cares about. Corporate world is 99.9999% IE. All I do--all the developers I know ever do--is build something for IE and never bother testing in other browsers because if they don't work, who gives a crap. It's not corporate policy to run the other nonsense anyway. Our company is 100% IE and the IT department will not even bother supporting firecrotch and others. Back when I worked at a consulting company all of our clients also were IE on the corporate environment and in the few cases where we created apps for external users, IE was the audience. Now, a site like amazon/ebay needs to cater to the anti-MS cultists, but on a smaller scale it's just a waste of time if there are other issues with other browsers. Frankly, I don't know if there are; I have not loaded firecrotch in a long time and it's not at all in my future, either. It's a debate best kept on the pages of anandtech.
A link from w3schools.com could show that firecrotch is holding steady at 90% market share. Wouldn't make an ounce of difference to business realities, though.
Actually, the name is Firefox. The mistake is common for the underdog coffee brewers of IT whom only have a vague concept of computation.
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Firecrotch, nutscrape, oprah, all browsers we don't care about. I've found nothing irks a firecrotch user like somebody who doesn't care enough to bother with it. I use IE on both of my home computers. Now, it's not as bad as mac users who are pained at the total contentedness windows users have, but it's closeOriginally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This is funny, making it work for IE. In the real world, web developers target IE and leave it to the geeks making mssucks.com to work in firecrotch and all the other browsers nobody cares about. Corporate world is 99.9999% IE. All I do--all the developers I know ever do--is build something for IE and never bother testing in other browsers because if they don't work, who gives a crap. It's not corporate policy to run the other nonsense anyway. Our company is 100% IE and the IT department will not even bother supporting firecrotch and others. Back when I worked at a consulting company all of our clients also were IE on the corporate environment and in the few cases where we created apps for external users, IE was the audience. Now, a site like amazon/ebay needs to cater to the anti-MS cultists, but on a smaller scale it's just a waste of time if there are other issues with other browsers. Frankly, I don't know if there are; I have not loaded firecrotch in a long time and it's not at all in my future, either. It's a debate best kept on the pages of anandtech.
A link from w3schools.com could show that firecrotch is holding steady at 90% market share. Wouldn't make an ounce of difference to business realities, though.
Actually, the name is Firefox. The mistake is common for the underdog coffee brewers of IT whom only have a vague concept of computation.
I'm not losing out. We're basically discussing I suppose two sides of the coin. You on the puritan's approach and mine in the corporate one, the one that makes money and that makes decisions and that the IT slave has to worship! I do like tabbed browsing in IE7 and I know FF had it a loooong time ago. I have never had problems with firefox and I have tried it. It's just that when it really comes down to it, it still accesses the same sites in the same ways and the rest is just frills. Since IE6 or 7 are both pretty stable and come pre-installed, it simply saves me a download.Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Firecrotch, nutscrape, oprah, all browsers we don't care about. I've found nothing irks a firecrotch user like somebody who doesn't care enough to bother with it. I use IE on both of my home computers. Now, it's not as bad as mac users who are pained at the total contentedness windows users have, but it's closeOriginally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This is funny, making it work for IE. In the real world, web developers target IE and leave it to the geeks making mssucks.com to work in firecrotch and all the other browsers nobody cares about. Corporate world is 99.9999% IE. All I do--all the developers I know ever do--is build something for IE and never bother testing in other browsers because if they don't work, who gives a crap. It's not corporate policy to run the other nonsense anyway. Our company is 100% IE and the IT department will not even bother supporting firecrotch and others. Back when I worked at a consulting company all of our clients also were IE on the corporate environment and in the few cases where we created apps for external users, IE was the audience. Now, a site like amazon/ebay needs to cater to the anti-MS cultists, but on a smaller scale it's just a waste of time if there are other issues with other browsers. Frankly, I don't know if there are; I have not loaded firecrotch in a long time and it's not at all in my future, either. It's a debate best kept on the pages of anandtech.
A link from w3schools.com could show that firecrotch is holding steady at 90% market share. Wouldn't make an ounce of difference to business realities, though.
Actually, the name is Firefox. The mistake is common for the underdog coffee brewers of IT whom only have a vague concept of computation.
No only do the browsers you mentioned follow standards much better than IE, they are much more advanced and refined. You're the one missing out, not us.
IE just came out with tabbed browsing, its been in other browsers for years now, which is only one basic example. IE is way behind in the browser market. Just because everyone uses it doesn't make it better. I won't lose any sleep over your use of IE.
I do know that anyone I have ever showed FF to has loved it.
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Let me guess. You're using style sheets exclusively. LOL. Well, you got what you deserve for buying the l33t hype.
Never had a problem with tables + style sheets.
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I'm not losing out. We're basically discussing I suppose two sides of the coin. You on the puritan's approach and mine in the corporate one, the one that makes money and that makes decisions and that the IT slave has to worship! I do like tabbed browsing in IE7 and I know FF had it a loooong time ago. I have never had problems with firefox and I have tried it. It's just that when it really comes down to it, it still accesses the same sites in the same ways and the rest is just frills. Since IE6 or 7 are both pretty stable and come pre-installed, it simply saves me a download.Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Firecrotch, nutscrape, oprah, all browsers we don't care about. I've found nothing irks a firecrotch user like somebody who doesn't care enough to bother with it. I use IE on both of my home computers. Now, it's not as bad as mac users who are pained at the total contentedness windows users have, but it's closeOriginally posted by: NanoStuff
Originally posted by: Skoorb
This is funny, making it work for IE. In the real world, web developers target IE and leave it to the geeks making mssucks.com to work in firecrotch and all the other browsers nobody cares about. Corporate world is 99.9999% IE. All I do--all the developers I know ever do--is build something for IE and never bother testing in other browsers because if they don't work, who gives a crap. It's not corporate policy to run the other nonsense anyway. Our company is 100% IE and the IT department will not even bother supporting firecrotch and others. Back when I worked at a consulting company all of our clients also were IE on the corporate environment and in the few cases where we created apps for external users, IE was the audience. Now, a site like amazon/ebay needs to cater to the anti-MS cultists, but on a smaller scale it's just a waste of time if there are other issues with other browsers. Frankly, I don't know if there are; I have not loaded firecrotch in a long time and it's not at all in my future, either. It's a debate best kept on the pages of anandtech.
A link from w3schools.com could show that firecrotch is holding steady at 90% market share. Wouldn't make an ounce of difference to business realities, though.
Actually, the name is Firefox. The mistake is common for the underdog coffee brewers of IT whom only have a vague concept of computation.
No only do the browsers you mentioned follow standards much better than IE, they are much more advanced and refined. You're the one missing out, not us.
IE just came out with tabbed browsing, its been in other browsers for years now, which is only one basic example. IE is way behind in the browser market. Just because everyone uses it doesn't make it better. I won't lose any sleep over your use of IE.
I do know that anyone I have ever showed FF to has loved it.
Now, I do know a site that was built with the Atlas framework recently works well in IE6 and supposedly looks quite bad in anything else, so the developer turned it off (and as IE6 is corp standards, that doesn't matter)--the site will refuse entry unless the user is on IE6. To spend time making it work on other browsers would be silly, as every single user of it is on 6.
Originally posted by: alkemyst
I would think people would understand it's not about FF being better or worse...it has no bearing when mom and pop the baby boomers are the ones running what Windows comes with out of the box and contributing to most of the sales in this country.
I love FF, but as a developer (which gets abused by those with a myspace page like the guy that can change a harddrive thinking he is a computer tech); I know no matter how much I preached to my customers that FF is the better browser...they could care less because IE let's them do what they want to do just fine and takes no extra work.
I have yet to encounter a page where IE can't work enough to get you through it UNLESS the page was specifically coded for IE to fail. I have had to open IE or use a plug-in for FF to see many I have tried to use FF with.
Originally posted by: Hyperblaze
Originally posted by: alkemyst
I would think people would understand it's not about FF being better or worse...it has no bearing when mom and pop the baby boomers are the ones running what Windows comes with out of the box and contributing to most of the sales in this country.
I love FF, but as a developer (which gets abused by those with a myspace page like the guy that can change a harddrive thinking he is a computer tech); I know no matter how much I preached to my customers that FF is the better browser...they could care less because IE let's them do what they want to do just fine and takes no extra work.
I have yet to encounter a page where IE can't work enough to get you through it UNLESS the page was specifically coded for IE to fail. I have had to open IE or use a plug-in for FF to see many I have tried to use FF with.
I simply try to make them understand the security vulnerabilities. They say they use IE, I ask them if they are aware of the security problems with IE. If they say they don't care, then not much you can do about it.
Microsoft really did it's job well in marketing. A lot of folks are used to Internet Explorer, no matter how bad and horrible it is. It's something (for reasons I will never understand) they trust because they are used to it and familiar with. And even if they are aware of the security problems, they'll say, but i'm careful, or I have a firewall and virus checker so I'm good!
And that's as far as their interest goes into "protecting" themselves. A lot of folks just don't care about educating themselves more, and that's something Microsoft prayed for.
And have you heard of Mac OS X? Not all corporations use nothing but Windows. I'd also manage a guess that those percentages would have risen in a year's time. Especially after the disappointment that is IE7.In an e-mail poll conducted by Computerworld over the past two months, 86% of the 105 IT managers who responded listed IE as the sole browser standard at their companies.
....
IBM announced last year that it would offer Firefox as an option to its 330,000 users. So far, 18% have added the browser or its Mozilla predecessor to their systems, IBM said.
....
70% of the respondents said that Firefox is having a positive effect on the IT industry
....
Nearly half of the respondents (45%) said they use Firefox as their sole browser or in addition to others, such as IE, Safari or Opera. And 21% said their IT departments have added support for Firefox.
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Let me guess. You're using style sheets exclusively. LOL. Well, you got what you deserve for buying the l33t hype.
Never had a problem with tables + style sheets.
Originally posted by: Train
I really hate it when people bring up "standards" puhleese I.E. is the most used, the most coded for, therefore it IS the standard browser. Bitch and moan all you want about some 3rd party published so called standard.
Look at turbo pascal through the 80's and 90's Borland was the standard because they dominated the market. When the ISO or whoever it was claiming to define the pascal standard didnt keep up with the times, Borland went ahead without them. Colleges taugh using Borland's version, guess what the real standard was? Borland Pascal, not the "internationaly accepted standard"
Originally posted by: Hyperblaze
Originally posted by: Train
I really hate it when people bring up "standards" puhleese I.E. is the most used, the most coded for, therefore it IS the standard browser. Bitch and moan all you want about some 3rd party published so called standard.
Look at turbo pascal through the 80's and 90's Borland was the standard because they dominated the market. When the ISO or whoever it was claiming to define the pascal standard didnt keep up with the times, Borland went ahead without them. Colleges taugh using Borland's version, guess what the real standard was? Borland Pascal, not the "internationaly accepted standard"
All I hear is the wail of a MS drone.....
I do agree though that MS have their own standards, and they truly do not care about the www standards.
PS: Internet Explorer does not dominate the market.
The only traffic you are potentially losing is site visitors who don't return to your site because they remember that it sucks. But if your content is decent and at least accessible, they come back anyway and put up with it. Hell, I even put up with flash sites occasionally if I need to see the content.
Originally posted by: jw0ollard
At my first IT job, there was a huge list of security settings you had to change for IE6. So for every single freaking new computer that came in, we'd have to spend 15 minutes configuring IE so that it wouldn't compromise the entire network. The guy that keeps trolling about IE, and "the corporate approach" needs to stop talking. He is correct that IE is popular with the computer illiterate, but his defense that it comes "pre-installed" and is therefore superior is negated by the fact that if you want to run it safely, you must spend 15 minutes configuring it. On the other hand, it takes me about 30 seconds to download and install Firefox, no configuration (for security) required.
Originally posted by: esun
The only traffic you are potentially losing is site visitors who don't return to your site because they remember that it sucks. But if your content is decent and at least accessible, they come back anyway and put up with it. Hell, I even put up with flash sites occasionally if I need to see the content.
But that's the point. I'm not saying that IE doesn't have a majority of the browser market. I'm not even trying to preach that people should design for FF, Opera, and/or other non-IE browsers. I'm simply saying that the arguments being made against designing for non-IE browsers by citing monthly traffic numbers make no sense. I just don't see how people can miss the stupidity of an argument like, "Well, most people that visited my site last month use IE, therefore I shouldn't care that my site looks like ass in non-IE browsers because I'm not missing out on many customers."
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Man...you need to learn about GPO and AD.
Also much easier to set the firewall up and leave the browsers alone.
I don't know if you understand security though.....
The rest of the stuff you posted is flawed as most that are running IE don't actively talk about it...those running niche apps want to get the word out.
While skoorb was using 4 9's, I am sure he meant it as an uber high percentage which is the case.
As far as your claim of OSX having any real market share it's not grounded in reality.
I didn't get what you were talking about with DW4 and not using FONT tags, but being you just came on board with IE6 I am thinking you have alot to learn.
...
This thread has turned into an advocacy one with most of the defenders probably coding about as deep as myspace allows.
Originally posted by: jw0ollard
I don't know if YOU understand security, sweety. Who mentioned anything about GPO and AD? Every time we got a new computer in we configured a lot more than IE. Don't be one of "those people" that just ASSume that if you don't mention something you obviously don't know what it is. I don't know where you've worked in IT, but we weren't lax on security. Not only did we safeguard IE and assign new GPO and AD policies, but we configured firewall, antivirus, and anti-spyware programs on every new computer.
Originally posted by: jw0ollard
You also obviously didn't read the Computerworld article I linked. Let me recap it: Out of 105 IT Managers, 86% responded that IE is their ONLY standard. 99.9999 - 86 = 13.9999%. That's a pretty big difference from what Skoorb stated (I'm also aware of something called hyperbole). ALSO, 45% responded that they only use Firefox OR that they use Firefox alongside other browsers. They're not denying that they use IE, so tell me -- pretty please -- how this is flawed?
Originally posted by: jw0ollard
RE: OS X... I could care less about your opinions on market share. Skoorb wasn't talking market share and neither was I. Regardless, 5-6% =/= .0001% -- he was about 50,000-60,000x times off. What I *was* stating is that corporations have a necessity for Mac OS X that everyone seems to dismiss here. Do businesses not require artists, designers, advertisers, fashion designers whom a good number of most likely prefer to do their work on a Mac? A niche it may be, but that niche doesn't take up <0.0001% market share.
Originally posted by: jw0ollard
RE: My joke about DW4 and FONT tags... umm... if you didn't get the analogy then god help you. If it must be explained, I was pointing out that the people proudly boasting that they ONLY code for IE might as well be "proudly boasting" that they use Dreamweaver 4 to do it, or that they style their text with FONT tags.
Originally posted by: jw0ollard
I also don't care how artificially bloated the browser statistics at W3C's site are.. It states that more of their visitors use Firefox than IE7 (edit: and IE6, not combined) as of September 2007, and if this trend doesn't stir any of you "IE Trolls" from your slumber, then I could give a shit. It just means that I and ~25% of the internet won't be visiting your site. (The ~25% came from averaging the non-IE % from 6 very conservative sources)
As for the MySpace jab, LOLcat! I'll just pretend it wasn't directed at me.