For all you Liberals

[Brie]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Unions are not bad things. They are essential in many cases. I've been part of a union and have dealt with unions as part of management. I enjoy dealing with unions when they are fair in their demands and when they are not I've always been able to argue the reality that I saw to a reasonable conclusion. The odd hanger on is no pet of other union members... they seek fair pay for fair work. To this I agree.

I'm not saying all unions are bad - but the ones I work with all day everyday can be. I'd take an apprentise electrician that has motivation and a willingness to learn over the average union electrician anyday. I worked on a project that had a non-union electrician outfit doing the install and they worked great. Stayed till the job was done and done right. Can't say I've ever had that happen when a union was involved. Maybe it's just electricians though.

CkG

I'm speaking big picture. The contract issues. The P&L of the company etc. When I was a letter carrier and in grad school I was shop steward.. and little picture.. We didn't want more route loaded on us than was fair... fair for me might have been double my route given that I had time to "run the route" and hours to study... but, this was over 30 years ago and since then management have whittled away the slack and have loaded down the carrier to the point that I'd not be able to run the route in the time alloted when I was young.. so I guess the union was not totaly in control and the worker is paid to do what used to be about 12 hours work in 8..

I could maybe agree with unions if thats what they did - protect workers from being overworked by "evil" corporations- but they have lost sight of that IMO. Now it's about taking individual worker rights and putting them in a pool, instead of letting them stand up on their own merit. I will NEVER join a union if I can help it unless they change the way they operate. I think my work more than stands on it's own - and I will leave a company if I feel that I am getting shafted by them - I don't need a union to protect me.

josphII - The "funny" I got a chuckle out of what that moony said "If you're going to use all them words you might as well say something" - now if that isn't a pot-kettle-black scenario then nothing is.

CkG

I know I will get flamed for saying this but sometimes unions remind me of socialism. Cad, id say it?s an argument of a "necessary evil" and picking the "lesser of two evils"...unions have definitely made progress in the past it?s not too much of a stretch to say that they will do it again. Its all supply and demand anyway...there will always be unions

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Unions are not bad things. They are essential in many cases. I've been part of a union and have dealt with unions as part of management. I enjoy dealing with unions when they are fair in their demands and when they are not I've always been able to argue the reality that I saw to a reasonable conclusion. The odd hanger on is no pet of other union members... they seek fair pay for fair work. To this I agree.

I'm not saying all unions are bad - but the ones I work with all day everyday can be. I'd take an apprentise electrician that has motivation and a willingness to learn over the average union electrician anyday. I worked on a project that had a non-union electrician outfit doing the install and they worked great. Stayed till the job was done and done right. Can't say I've ever had that happen when a union was involved. Maybe it's just electricians though.

CkG

I'm speaking big picture. The contract issues. The P&L of the company etc. When I was a letter carrier and in grad school I was shop steward.. and little picture.. We didn't want more route loaded on us than was fair... fair for me might have been double my route given that I had time to "run the route" and hours to study... but, this was over 30 years ago and since then management have whittled away the slack and have loaded down the carrier to the point that I'd not be able to run the route in the time alloted when I was young.. so I guess the union was not totaly in control and the worker is paid to do what used to be about 12 hours work in 8..

I could maybe agree with unions if thats what they did - protect workers from being overworked by "evil" corporations- but they have lost sight of that IMO. Now it's about taking individual worker rights and putting them in a pool, instead of letting them stand up on their own merit. I will NEVER join a union if I can help it unless they change the way they operate. I think my work more than stands on it's own - and I will leave a company if I feel that I am getting shafted by them - I don't need a union to protect me.

josphII - The "funny" I got a chuckle out of what that moony said "If you're going to use all them words you might as well say something" - now if that isn't a pot-kettle-black scenario then nothing is.

CkG

I know I will get flamed for saying this but sometimes unions remind me of socialism. Cad, id say it?s an argument of a "necessary evil" and picking the "lesser of two evils"...unions have definitely made progress in the past it?s not too much of a stretch to say that they will do it again. Its all supply and demand anyway...there will always be unions

Yep, Some people need unions - I won't argue with that. The reason they need unions is a whole different question The day I need a third party to set my pay for me is the day I quit working. If my work ethic and job performance isn't recognized as a benefit to the company - then I will find an employer who will see me as an assest and pay me accordingly.

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

In 1980 I went to Ireland to build a factory and hire a workforce. The factory was easy... the workforce was very difficult... I talked to unions to help me and they did. They found folks, vetted them and represented them in a very fair way. When a 'bloke' was not up to snuff I'd talk to the union rep and together we'd sort out the issue.. well the Works Manager but, I oversaw it. I was not concerned about the little picture... I wanted stability and I got stability. I agreed a fair wage and sought a fair return and got it. I've never seen a situation where it was different... sure there are little issues that occur but, on the whole I'd rather deal with a union than individual folks. Especially when differential wage demands come into play.. merit increases and the agruments that occur. Nah.. I'd rather deal with a set wage for lots of reasons among which is knowledge of the Direct component of cost... for pricing and competitive issues.. If we are more productive fine every one gets a share... then if someone is a slacker his buddies will let him know... I don't need to deal with line management and the worker issues at all.. simple and I like simple..

 

[Brie]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
In 1980 I went to Ireland to build a factory and hire a workforce. The factory was easy... the workforce was very difficult... I talked to unions to help me and they did. They found folks, vetted them and represented them in a very fair way. When a 'bloke' was not up to snuff I'd talk to the union rep and together we'd sort out the issue.. well the Works Manager but, I oversaw it. I was not concerned about the little picture... I wanted stability and I got stability. I agreed a fair wage and sought a fair return and got it. I've never seen a situation where it was different... sure there are little issues that occur but, on the whole I'd rather deal with a union than individual folks. Especially when differential wage demands come into play.. merit increases and the agruments that occur. Nah.. I'd rather deal with a set wage for lots of reasons among which is knowledge of the Direct component of cost... for pricing and competitive issues.. If we are more productive fine every one gets a share... then if someone is a slacker his buddies will let him know... I don't need to deal with line management and the worker issues at all.. simple and I like simple..

Don?t want to deal with the worker eh? Yes let the Union control (<= CAD?) the people err worker. Your transition to the dark side is nearly complete Obi Wan.

I do see the potential problems you might encounter when you mention a fair wage. Understanding and best intentions immediately get thrown out the window when the worker has a problem.

 

[IGBT]

Sooner or later liberals run out of other peoples money. Look at the wreck california is in due to a democratic legislature increasing the budget 38% in less then 48 months and in the shadow of the legislature induced energy deregulation disaster..it's a liberal controlled legislature. Complete with a full spectrum of booo hooo touchy feely social programs sucking the taxpayer lifeless. Put you wallet on the table and let the booo hooo libs take your money..go on...go ahead..you asked for it...

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: IGBT
Sooner or later liberals run out of other peoples money.

LOL... So what do you call this god-awful deficit Bushy's gotten us into? Is he borrowing against his own wallet?

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: BigJelly

Originally posted by: Zebo

however, things changed when she got her first sallery job and the government takes over 50%.

You must have missed the cheap-labor-conservative ploy here "Cheap-labor conservatives hate the progressive income tax like the devil hates holy water". . Sorry , Cheap-labor conservatives have shifted the tax burden to middle and middleupper class because of this. Taxes used to be around 10% for your average american and 70-90% for the uber rich from the time of Eisenhower until Reagan came along. Your blame is misdirected.

Sorry you are again misdirected because my argument is that the middle class is screwed by the government's wasteful spending and the liberals always supporting the scum of society. After welfare was cut heavily, over 50% of the people on welfare got jobs. Not only are they not sucking the money out of the middle class' pockets but they are paying taxes.
And like i said if politicians would stop wasting money on useless programs and stop throwing money on problems (education system) no one, of any class, would need to be taxed 50%. Your comment, about the upper class being taxed 70-90%, just screams the brainwashing of the left--let the strongest few hold up the laziest society has to offer. What this country needs is a new party one for the middle class that says to current politicians--stop wasting tax dollars, to the lazy people--work or starve, and tells the rich--pay your share; no more, no less. (Keywords YOUR SHARE not everyone else's share).

While an interesting theoretical overgeneralization of the political system, your arguments are frought with inadequacies that are clearly delineated by your (self admittedly) lack of real life experience. Let me give you a little practical real world information about your beloved conservatives. I live in Florida, Jeb Bush is our governor. After 9/11 when the feds squandered the largest surplus on record, the states economies (who face the stigma of having to have a balanced budget every fiscal year) had to make up for the lack of dollars entering into their economy. The state of Florida had to cut 1 billion dollars from our spending programs. $650million of that cut came from education while spending for social programs actually increased, this is a documented event, and was endorsed by our conservative republican governor (of the same ideological preference as his brother and the majority of the hard line right in this country) They squandered the youth's future so they could buy the votes of the bleeding hearts. Florida already had one of the worst public school systems in the country (thank god for private school) yet your beloved conservatives sought to cut even more funding from the already understaffed and underfunded education budget. Brilliant.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: IGBT
Sooner or later liberals run out of other peoples money. Look at the wreck california is in due to a democratic legislature increasing the budget 38% in less then 48 months and in the shadow of the legislature induced energy deregulation disaster..it's a liberal controlled legislature. Complete with a full spectrum of booo hooo touchy feely social programs sucking the taxpayer lifeless. Put you wallet on the table and let the booo hooo libs take your money..go on...go ahead..you asked for it...

When the class war starts and we strip the rich of their ill gotten gains then we can move to rational conservatism. In the old testament, I believe, the Jews started fresh every 50 years. Keeps the worst elements of the human race, those interested in accumulating, from ruining everything.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUYYep, Some people need unions - I won't argue with that. The reason they need unions is a whole different question The day I need a third party to set my pay for me is the day I quit working. If my work ethic and job performance isn't recognized as a benefit to the company - then I will find an employer who will see me as an assest and pay me accordingly.

CkG

So when the economy's in the crapper and unemployment is creeping up higher and higher, you don't think you might have a little bitty problem? I seriously doubt anyone is contemplating switching jobs in this economic climate. Especially if they don't have to. Underemployment is also a problem. The two are connected.

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam In the old testament, I believe, the Jews started fresh every 50 years. Keeps the worst elements of the human race, those interested in accumulating, from ruining everything.

[/i]


Why do you dislike Jewish people so much? ...you really think they are "the worst elements of the human race?"

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx

Originally posted by: Moonbeam In the old testament, I believe, the Jews started fresh every 50 years. Keeps the worst elements of the human race, those interested in accumulating, from ruining everything.

[/i]


Why do you dislike Jewish people so much? ...you really think they are "the worst elements of the human race?"

Are you defensive or something? I was complementing them on the wisdom of their law. We need to do the same. Almost all my idols are Jews. Why is it that people with sore toes tend to leave them in the aisle.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: LunarRay
In 1980 I went to Ireland to build a factory and hire a workforce. The factory was easy... the workforce was very difficult... I talked to unions to help me and they did. They found folks, vetted them and represented them in a very fair way. When a 'bloke' was not up to snuff I'd talk to the union rep and together we'd sort out the issue.. well the Works Manager but, I oversaw it. I was not concerned about the little picture... I wanted stability and I got stability. I agreed a fair wage and sought a fair return and got it. I've never seen a situation where it was different... sure there are little issues that occur but, on the whole I'd rather deal with a union than individual folks. Especially when differential wage demands come into play.. merit increases and the agruments that occur. Nah.. I'd rather deal with a set wage for lots of reasons among which is knowledge of the Direct component of cost... for pricing and competitive issues.. If we are more productive fine every one gets a share... then if someone is a slacker his buddies will let him know... I don't need to deal with line management and the worker issues at all.. simple and I like simple..

Don?t want to deal with the worker eh? Yes let the Union control (<= CAD?) the people err worker. Your transition to the dark side is nearly complete Obi Wan.

I do see the potential problems you might encounter when you mention a fair wage. Understanding and best intentions immediately get thrown out the window when the worker has a problem.

Without Unions the Owners and Management will find ways to reduce the costs at the expense of the worker. We will then be back to the Molly Maguires... There are a myriad of reasons to have Unions I like them for my own reasons the worker ought to like them for their reasons and the owners and customers benefit at the end of the day as well..
I was a worker bee... worked as a letter carrier and a union member and shop steward... I liked to argue with management who often had something up their sleeve... little things like; give a carrier help by giving an hour OT to another carrier to carry two hours of route (per the last inspection) then record this... we had these little white cards that we put in a machine and all the activity was recorded... then they had proof that this part of the route could on average be carried in an hour... but we figured this out and everyone knew the standard time for each 'swing' on each route... and we took the appropriate amount of time to carry the portion we were given... or we'd not sign up for OT.. or we'd not sign up for use of our personal vehicle... so that they (management) would find it good to deal fairly with the worker... The evil empire seeks the evil empire... true it is, "Packy the Mule" some are...!

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx

Originally posted by: Moonbeam In the old testament, I believe, the Jews started fresh every 50 years. Keeps the worst elements of the human race, those interested in accumulating, from ruining everything.

[/i]


Why do you dislike Jewish people so much? ...you really think they are "the worst elements of the human race?"

I think I read Moonbeam's post to mean; folks who accumulate wealth or debt need relief and every fifty years seems at least historically, a starting reference... Call it a Jubilee. I think gold and silver are the worst elements that humans race after and oxygen and nitrogen and stuff like that is just taken for granite.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx

Originally posted by: Moonbeam In the old testament, I believe, the Jews started fresh every 50 years. Keeps the worst elements of the human race, those interested in accumulating, from ruining everything.

[/i]


Why do you dislike Jewish people so much? ...you really think they are "the worst elements of the human race?"

I know what I'm saying: Why can't that JohnGalt guy freakin' read? So sad, really...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUYYep, Some people need unions - I won't argue with that. The reason they need unions is a whole different question The day I need a third party to set my pay for me is the day I quit working. If my work ethic and job performance isn't recognized as a benefit to the company - then I will find an employer who will see me as an assest and pay me accordingly.

CkG

So when the economy's in the crapper and unemployment is creeping up higher and higher, you don't think you might have a little bitty problem? I seriously doubt anyone is contemplating switching jobs in this economic climate. Especially if they don't have to. Underemployment is also a problem. The two are connected.

And Unions can "fix" that?

Oh, and BTW the ecomomy isn't "in the crapper" and unemployment is a lagging indicator which has reversed course as of late I'm considering switching jobs and I know alot of people who are. Infact I know atleast 3 people who are SERIOUSLY considering quitting their job and striking out on their own. I guess it's all what and who you know and not what is handed to you.

CkG

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUYYep, Some people need unions - I won't argue with that. The reason they need unions is a whole different question The day I need a third party to set my pay for me is the day I quit working. If my work ethic and job performance isn't recognized as a benefit to the company - then I will find an employer who will see me as an assest and pay me accordingly.

CkG

So when the economy's in the crapper and unemployment is creeping up higher and higher, you don't think you might have a little bitty problem? I seriously doubt anyone is contemplating switching jobs in this economic climate. Especially if they don't have to. Underemployment is also a problem. The two are connected.

And Unions can "fix" that?

Oh, and BTW the ecomomy isn't "in the crapper" and unemployment is a lagging indicator which has reversed course as of late I'm considering switching jobs and I know alot of people who are. Infact I know atleast 3 people who are SERIOUSLY considering quitting their job and striking out on their own. I guess it's all what and who you know and not what is handed to you.

CkG

Unions give employees collective-bargaining power. Which is more power than they started with. I don't see what you have against it. You and Wal-Mart, anti-Union. It must come full-circle to that cheap-labor thing I keep hearing so much about. Or maybe it's that personal responsiblity thing. Geeze, I can't keep your conservative values straight anymore.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Brie

Originally posted by: LunarRay
In 1980 I went to Ireland to build a factory and hire a workforce. The factory was easy... the workforce was very difficult... I talked to unions to help me and they did. They found folks, vetted them and represented them in a very fair way. When a 'bloke' was not up to snuff I'd talk to the union rep and together we'd sort out the issue.. well the Works Manager but, I oversaw it. I was not concerned about the little picture... I wanted stability and I got stability. I agreed a fair wage and sought a fair return and got it. I've never seen a situation where it was different... sure there are little issues that occur but, on the whole I'd rather deal with a union than individual folks. Especially when differential wage demands come into play.. merit increases and the agruments that occur. Nah.. I'd rather deal with a set wage for lots of reasons among which is knowledge of the Direct component of cost... for pricing and competitive issues.. If we are more productive fine every one gets a share... then if someone is a slacker his buddies will let him know... I don't need to deal with line management and the worker issues at all.. simple and I like simple..

Don?t want to deal with the worker eh? Yes let the Union control (<= CAD?) the people err worker. Your transition to the dark side is nearly complete Obi Wan.

I do see the potential problems you might encounter when you mention a fair wage. Understanding and best intentions immediately get thrown out the window when the worker has a problem.

Without Unions the Owners and Management will find ways to reduce the costs at the expense of the worker. We will then be back to the Molly Maguires... There are a myriad of reasons to have Unions I like them for my own reasons the worker ought to like them for their reasons and the owners and customers benefit at the end of the day as well..
I was a worker bee... worked as a letter carrier and a union member and shop steward... I liked to argue with management who often had something up their sleeve... little things like; give a carrier help by giving an hour OT to another carrier to carry two hours of route (per the last inspection) then record this... we had these little white cards that we put in a machine and all the activity was recorded... then they had proof that this part of the route could on average be carried in an hour... but we figured this out and everyone knew the standard time for each 'swing' on each route... and we took the appropriate amount of time to carry the portion we were given... or we'd not sign up for OT.. or we'd not sign up for use of our personal vehicle... so that they (management) would find it good to deal fairly with the worker... The evil empire seeks the evil empire... true it is, "Packy the Mule" some are...!

More conspiracy crap. All corporations aren't "evil" -they look out for the bottom line -which is their right. If a company shafts their workforce too much people will leave causing the company to become less productive - and thus starts the downward spiral. I don't like business controls - it keeps those companies that should have failed due to poor workforce management afloat by forcing them to meet minimum standards. I say let the companies live or die on their own. If a company doesn't set their standards high enough to attract a productive work force then they should and will fade quickly away.

CkG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUYYep, Some people need unions - I won't argue with that. The reason they need unions is a whole different question The day I need a third party to set my pay for me is the day I quit working. If my work ethic and job performance isn't recognized as a benefit to the company - then I will find an employer who will see me as an assest and pay me accordingly.

CkG

So when the economy's in the crapper and unemployment is creeping up higher and higher, you don't think you might have a little bitty problem? I seriously doubt anyone is contemplating switching jobs in this economic climate. Especially if they don't have to. Underemployment is also a problem. The two are connected.

And Unions can "fix" that?

Oh, and BTW the ecomomy isn't "in the crapper" and unemployment is a lagging indicator which has reversed course as of late I'm considering switching jobs and I know alot of people who are. Infact I know atleast 3 people who are SERIOUSLY considering quitting their job and striking out on their own. I guess it's all what and who you know and not what is handed to you.

CkG

Unions give employees collective-bargaining power. Which is more power than they started with. I don't see what you have against it. You and Wal-Mart, anti-Union. It must come full-circle to that cheap-labor thing I keep hearing so much about. Or maybe it's that personal responsiblity thing. Geeze, I can't keep your conservative values straight anymore.

It's called work ethic and yes - personal responsibility- something you should look up. If you work hard and are an asset to a company you shouldn't need to give up your personal bargaining rights to someone who may or maynot have your personal best interests at heart.

CkG

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Unions give employees collective-bargaining power. Which is more power than they started with. I don't see what you have against it. You and Wal-Mart, anti-Union. It must come full-circle to that cheap-labor thing I keep hearing so much about. Or maybe it's that personal responsiblity thing. Geeze, I can't keep your conservative values straight anymore.

It's called work ethic and yes - personal responsibility- something you should look up. If you work hard and are an asset to a company you shouldn't need to give up your personal bargaining rights to someone who may or maynot have your personal best interests at heart.

CkG

Despite your limited experience with unions, I don't see how working hard and unions are mutually exclusive. There are fields that have benefited nicely because of them. Supermarket workers for one. They'd be paid minimum wage if it wasn't for unions. Dock workers. Auto workers. Entertainment production. All of these people can now make a decent salary because of unions. Why are you so against people making a living wage? One that provides for their families? Without unions, these industries would be front-loaded with "McJobs" paying minimum wage or a few dollars more. You can't raise a family on minimum wage...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Unions give employees collective-bargaining power. Which is more power than they started with. I don't see what you have against it. You and Wal-Mart, anti-Union. It must come full-circle to that cheap-labor thing I keep hearing so much about. Or maybe it's that personal responsiblity thing. Geeze, I can't keep your conservative values straight anymore.

It's called work ethic and yes - personal responsibility- something you should look up. If you work hard and are an asset to a company you shouldn't need to give up your personal bargaining rights to someone who may or maynot have your personal best interests at heart.

CkG

Despite your limited experience with unions, I don't see how working hard and unions are mutually exclusive. There are fields that have benefited nicely because of them. Supermarket workers for one. They'd be paid minimum wage if it wasn't for unions. Dock workers. Auto workers. Entertainment production. All of these people can now make a decent salary because of unions. Why are you so against people making a living wage? One that provides for their families? Without unions, these industries would be front-loaded with "McJobs" paying minimum wage or a few dollars more. You can't raise a family on minimum wage...

I didn't say they were mutually exclusive - YOU made that leap - not I. How many jobs has a union created?(and more management to deal with them doesn't count) I am not ANTI-Union - I am pro-worker. Dock workers and and Automakers and Supermarket? workers could earn a decent living without having the union "protecting" them if they stood up to their employers. I'm not against people making a living wage - I'm for people WORKING to EARN their wage. See - more of good 'ol personal responsibility and work ethic
If you aren't paid enough - go find someone who is willing to pay you enough for your hard work - they are out there

CkG
PS - learn how to use the quotes.

 

[LunarRay]

CAD Says..
More conspiracy crap. All corporations aren't "evil" -they look out for the bottom line -which is their right. If a company shafts their workforce too much people will leave causing the company to become less productive - and thus starts the downward spiral. I don't like business controls - it keeps those companies that should have failed due to poor workforce management afloat by forcing them to meet minimum standards. I say let the companies live or die on their own. If a company doesn't set their standards high enough to attract a productive work force then they should and will fade quickly away.
*********************

All companies are in search of the bottom line reality... "For profit companies" ... To the extent this is evil they are evil.. Without a union acting as the employees agent the employee has little power to negotiate his craft or technical skill worth, unless he is lucky enough to have an expertise that is unique and in demand. You don't need to work in a Union shop... perhaps your expertise is not a unionized craft.. I don't know... If a vote is held among the craft employees within your organization and it comes out in favor of unionization you can quit. This is one of them Res Ipsa Louquitor issues... if unions did not benefit the workers they would not exist... it they were unneeded because most or all companies treated all their employees fairly, unions would not exist... sorta like snow shoes on Oahu beaches..
We are in a market where there are more workers than jobs.... the employer can and will take advantage of this condition... there are many laborers, masons, slurry pumpers... etc. looking for work... keep in mind the unions represent crafts not dafters, designers and engineers, usually.
A company exists as long as the consumer consumes the product offered and shuns alternative products or direct competition no matter the quality of the offered product... (think computer operating systems) However, introduce a viable alternative that the consumer will consume and that competition drives the evil actions of that company to remain profitable while achieving your aforementioned criteria.

 

[MonkeyK]

Most of this personal responsibilty/work ethic stuff is a bunch of hooey. What it really comes down to is sales. Can you sell yourself? If so, you will make a lot of money.
I work very hard, and know that I contribute a lot to any company that I work for. Bosses tend to like me because I make them look good. But every time that I have looked for a job, it has been very difficult for me to find one (even in good times). Why? Because I don't sell myself well. It is a process that I find frustrating and difficult.

Sure, sure, the company has to choose their workers somehow. All I'm saying is that there is more to it than hard work.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Unions give employees collective-bargaining power. Which is more power than they started with. I don't see what you have against it. You and Wal-Mart, anti-Union. It must come full-circle to that cheap-labor thing I keep hearing so much about. Or maybe it's that personal responsiblity thing. Geeze, I can't keep your conservative values straight anymore.

It's called work ethic and yes - personal responsibility- something you should look up. If you work hard and are an asset to a company you shouldn't need to give up your personal bargaining rights to someone who may or maynot have your personal best interests at heart.

CkG

Despite your limited experience with unions, I don't see how working hard and unions are mutually exclusive. There are fields that have benefited nicely because of them. Supermarket workers for one. They'd be paid minimum wage if it wasn't for unions. Dock workers. Auto workers. Entertainment production. All of these people can now make a decent salary because of unions. Why are you so against people making a living wage? One that provides for their families? Without unions, these industries would be front-loaded with "McJobs" paying minimum wage or a few dollars more. You can't raise a family on minimum wage...

I didn't say they were mutually exclusive - YOU made that leap - not I. How many jobs has a union created?(and more management to deal with them doesn't count) I am not ANTI-Union - I am pro-worker. Dock workers and and Automakers and Supermarket? workers could earn a decent living without having the union "protecting" them if they stood up to their employers. I'm not against people making a living wage - I'm for people WORKING to EARN their wage. See - more of good 'ol personal responsibility and work ethic
If you aren't paid enough - go find someone who is willing to pay you enough for your hard work - they are out there

CkG
PS - learn how to use the quotes.

Cad, you said, and I quote, "If you work hard and are an asset to a company you shouldn't need to give up your personal bargaining rights to someone who may or maynot have your personal best interests at heart." That implies that you don't need unions if you work hard. Which implies that union workers don't work hard. Sometimes I can't even believe how you dodge responsibility of your own statements ... but I digress. If telling your boss "to stick it" and finding a different job actually worked in these people's cases, unions wouldn't exist. They exist for a reason. You just don't like them because you feel superior somehow, like maybe you work harder or something? Who knows. You have your agenda...

And don't give me $hit about the quotes, I don't need a lecture

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Unions give employees collective-bargaining power. Which is more power than they started with. I don't see what you have against it. You and Wal-Mart, anti-Union. It must come full-circle to that cheap-labor thing I keep hearing so much about. Or maybe it's that personal responsiblity thing. Geeze, I can't keep your conservative values straight anymore.

It's called work ethic and yes - personal responsibility- something you should look up. If you work hard and are an asset to a company you shouldn't need to give up your personal bargaining rights to someone who may or maynot have your personal best interests at heart.

CkG

Despite your limited experience with unions, I don't see how working hard and unions are mutually exclusive. There are fields that have benefited nicely because of them. Supermarket workers for one. They'd be paid minimum wage if it wasn't for unions. Dock workers. Auto workers. Entertainment production. All of these people can now make a decent salary because of unions. Why are you so against people making a living wage? One that provides for their families? Without unions, these industries would be front-loaded with "McJobs" paying minimum wage or a few dollars more. You can't raise a family on minimum wage...

I didn't say they were mutually exclusive - YOU made that leap - not I. How many jobs has a union created?(and more management to deal with them doesn't count) I am not ANTI-Union - I am pro-worker. Dock workers and and Automakers and Supermarket? workers could earn a decent living without having the union "protecting" them if they stood up to their employers. I'm not against people making a living wage - I'm for people WORKING to EARN their wage. See - more of good 'ol personal responsibility and work ethic
If you aren't paid enough - go find someone who is willing to pay you enough for your hard work - they are out there

CkG
PS - learn how to use the quotes.

Cad, you said, and I quote, "If you work hard and are an asset to a company you shouldn't need to give up your personal bargaining rights to someone who may or maynot have your personal best interests at heart." That implies that you don't need unions if you work hard. Which implies that union workers don't work hard. Sometimes I can't even believe how you dodge responsibility of your own statements ... but I digress. If telling your boss "to stick it" and finding a different job actually worked in these people's cases, unions wouldn't exist. They exist for a reason. You just don't like them because you feel superior somehow, like maybe you work harder or something? Who knows. You have your agenda...

And don't give me $hit about the quotes, I don't need a lecture

I'm not dodging Sh!t. I stand behind everything I posted. You are making the leaps. I never said all union workers don't work hard - but I did state that I'd rather have a non-union person working my jobs. Mainly because they don't have to follow the rules of the union. They(non-union) will stay an extra hour on a friday afternoon to finish something up if I ask or make sure things are done right before leaving, but in my experience, a union electrician wouldn't. Like I said - maybe it's just electricians or the couple companies I've worked with but it HAS happened. This doesn't mean these people are lazy - they just don't have to do anything "extra" and in some cases would get in trouble for doing so.

Yes, I believe if you work hard and do your job well, you don't need someone to look out for you because if the company shafts you, you should be able to find employer who will treat you right. What you people need to realize is that a job isn't a right, it is a mutual contract for services. If either wants to end the contract it is their right as long as they follow the rules.

I guess it boils down to how you look at the corporate world. If you feel you need protection - find a Union. If you feel that you can stand up for yourself - you may not need a union. Whatever though, to each their own - just don't sell yourself short.

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

Cad,
Just a comment regarding OT work.

Many union shops will not pay overtime without authorization from their supervisor. Many non union shops are the same. I speak about Construction and Engineering Companies in my area. I'm CFO/Controller of a Construction Co. presently and if a job needs OT to complete we will provide it if we have to in order to finish by a dead line etc. but, if it is simply for the clients convience and the OT is not built into the contract we'd lose $ on this. It all depends... you want a job finished are you willing to pay the premium pay to get it done? You'll want liquidated damages if it is in the contract and we don't finish per the contract so.... it all depends on the contract and not the union or non union in lots of cases... the workers like the OT pay and we don't like to pay it unless we collect it from the client... just being fair and all...