For those against universal healthcare like they have in Canada, why be against it?

[herm0016]

sounds great.
but, our for profit system also pays for most of the research that supports all of the not for profit systems in the world.

Do you want to do away with the hugely expensive process of medical research and approval of new treatments and drugs?

Are you one of the people that want to do away with patent law too?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

It's the same. However, the poor don't pay for the treatment of the elite in a private system. That's the distinction.

The rich don't pay taxes in Canada? They'll be quite annoyed to learn this given their deductions.

Also. What's the rate of incident for the preferential treatment you cite? I'm sure everyone in every profession has observed something similar over their careers. How often does it occur?

 

[actuarial]

It's the same. However, the poor don't pay for the treatment of the elite in a private system. That's the distinction.

It depends on what you consider poor. Most of the poor pay little taxes, so they pay very little of the healthcare costs. And the truly elite don't get care on Canadian taxpayer's dime at all. They pay for care down in the US.

But you are right, the poor don't pay for any care in the private system, and the poor don't get any care (other than emergency care).

If you think the poor in Canada get less out of UHC than they pay in, you are out of your mind.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

sounds great.
but, our for profit system also pays for most of the research that supports all of the not for profit systems in the world.

Do you want to do away with the hugely expensive process of medical research and approval of new treatments and drugs?

Are you one of the people that want to do away with patent law too?

You might be surprised to learn that a wealth of medical breakthroughs occur outside the US too. Guess how that was supported?

 

[herm0016]

spending from countries that are in situations like Greece.

 

[Zebo]

People are fuckin stupid. They rather see multimillionaire doctors and billionaire HC execs than get HC. We regulate the shit out of who and how can practice I see zero reason not to regulate prices as well. Problem is we only have protectionism on the supply side thus we pay 2.5x as much as anyone else.

If you want to fix it you either have to open it up on supply end or regulate demand as much as supply.

Editz: BTW I just built out a new clinic for my bro and state board said 400 sqft is to small for a clinic, they even regulate size you can operate in addition to license. Point is, besides me making a ton of cash for R&R, is market is not free.

 

[Macamus Prime]

America's healthcare "system" makes HUGE profits. So, when universal healthcare comes into light:
1) Rich people panic
2) Obama is a socialist
3) Universal healthcare will result in waiting 4 years to have a mole removed
4) Government will go broke

All of these things are NOT true - except for #1.

The stupidity that gets spewed from the pigs of America is just insane.

 

[soundforbjt]

Here's some talk of one.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2001977834_cihak13.html



The elite get preferential treatment and the poor pay for it.

The main problem in Canada is that the healthcare system is viewed as an essential part of the national character. Criticizing it is viewed as attacking the very heart of Canada itself, so these atrocities can't be corrected.

Your link is written by this guy: "Robert J. Cihak, M.D. (think@heartland.org) is a senior fellow and board member of the Discovery Institute and past president of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons."

Someone who has "skin" in the game and not a un-biased source.

 

[CanOWorms]

Your link is written by this guy: "Robert J. Cihak, M.D. (think@heartland.org) is a senior fellow and board member of the Discovery Institute and past president of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons."

Someone who has "skin" in the game and not a un-biased source.

It doesn't matter who wrote that opinion piece. I'm referring to the publication in the Annals of Internal Medicine that is mentioned in the opinion. That is independent of him.

 

[CanOWorms]

It depends on what you consider poor. Most of the poor pay little taxes, so they pay very little of the healthcare costs. And the truly elite don't get care on Canadian taxpayer's dime at all. They pay for care down in the US.

But you are right, the poor don't pay for any care in the private system, and the poor don't get any care (other than emergency care).

If you think the poor in Canada get less out of UHC than they pay in, you are out of your mind.

The poor pay a lot of taxes. There are more taxes than income taxes.

 

[earthman]

If I have my choice of waiting to see a doctor (who gets to see a doctor or specialist right away anyway?) or paying thousands of dollars for the privilege, I'll wait. We desperately need a universal system here that breaks the power of private insurance companies and the big drug companies. Most money spent on "healthcare" here ends up in their pockets. And to the person who thinks that Medicare and Medicaid don't work that well, you're delusional. They work great with a fraction of the overhead that you'd get if private companies did it. Health care is headed for a crisis in this country, and a privatized system is going to fail to keep this country healthy, and fail miserably.

 

[soundforbjt]

It doesn't matter who wrote that opinion piece. I'm referring to the publication in the Annals of Internal Medicine that is mentioned in the opinion. That is independent of him.

I'll bet he's a member of their's.

But not independent of american doctor's opinions; Annals of Internal Medicine: "Annals of Internal Medicine’s publisher, the American College of Physicians (www.acponline.org), is the largest medical specialty organization and the second-largest physician group in the United States."


And before you try "the Fraser Institute in Vancouver, B.C.,

"The Fraser Institute is a registered non-profit organization. We depend entirely on donations from people who understand the importance of impartial research and who support greater choice, less government intervention, and more personal responsibility."

 

[actuarial]

The poor pay a lot of taxes. There are more taxes than income taxes.

Way to gloss over the entire post. A poor person pays significantly less taxes than a rich person.

And I see you also selectively ignored the post that debunked your 'surgeons treat the elite first', when in fact it was 'surgeons treat other doctors/family of doctors first'.

 

[mattpegher]

As a doctor, I actually support the idea of universal health care, but that is because I am an emergency medicine physician and already provide universal health care. The system will require a broad range of changes in medicine, law and pharmaceutical science.

The system must:
1. Maintain physician salaries. Cut salaries and smart students will go to other fields. I certainly would. And I dont want my urologist to be the guy that couldn't get into business school.
2. Severe changes in the right to sue. The goverment is not going to fund the current system of jackpot payouts. The cost of taking a case to trial is about $200,000 and thats if you win. The cost of my malpractice is about $90,000 per year, and that is without any judgements.
3. The goverment will need to subsidize the pharmaceutical industry. Much like industries such as defense. We will need to pay for costly research. And it will likely lead to less research being done.
4. The goverment will have to purchase all the property of the private physicians/hospitals/ labs and xray facilities. This alone could bankrupt the goverment.
5. Our current tax system could not in any fair way figure out how to distribute the increase in taxes.

As was stated before, decouple health insurance from employment. Make group rates illegal. Encourage the development of plans that allow for high deductables with HSA's (ones that dont expire at the end of the year). These things could allow for a more efficent private healthcare system. My employer pays me a stipend for being a full time employee, I use it to buy a PPO plan with a $5000 deductable. I save $7000/year for the same plan with a $1000 deductable. I put $5000 into an HSA and use it to pay for medical expenses. This allows me to properly deduct these expenses from my taxes without having to pay the 7% of my income first.

Any UHC system would have to be rolled out in phases.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

UHC works fine if you're a racist xenophobic homogeneous country

Also works pretty well over here, where we're neither racist, xenophobic nor homogeneous.

 

[Michael]

I grew up in Canada and moved to the USA in my mid-twenties. I then spent 20 years in the USA with the exception of 3 in Singapore (and I just moved to Shanghai).

Although I am conservative in my beliefs, I want good service for the best cost. UHC is the most fair and protects the most citizens for the least money. The single biggest failure that Obama has made in so far was the stupid health bill he passed. He had a majority in both Houses and still passed something that will make the current system worse.

Moving to UHC in the USA would be tricky because the current system has been running for a while, but it is doable. It does eliminate Medicare and Medicaid, so there are savings there.

The real tricky part is that most medical assets are in private hands right now. How do you deal with MRI machines and such? You need to make sure that the doctors make enough to pay for them, but there probably are more than is needed by any rational model.

Michael

 

[WackyDan]

Medicare has much lower overhead than private insurance anyways.

Because they don't have as good all around coverage as private insurance and impose limitations on frequency of regular checkups, dental, etc. It's called too many fucking people on the program, and too little money to fund said program EQUALS.... Are you ready?? RATIONING.

Before you jump on me... My daughter was born at 1 pound 4.2 ounces and due to that has a Medicaid card ( Feds consider any baby under x amount of birth weight disabled ). I get all the lovely Medicaid mail for her. Thanks to my private insurance we don't need to leverage Medicaid. So... I know a thing or two about how bad it sucks, and yes, absent other insurance Medicaid is just dandy!!! - Because a lot of the adults on it don't know any better.

 

[WackyDan]

Illegal immigrants are not do not come close to accounting for the disparity between our two systems. (illegal immigrants actually utilize the health care system at vastly lower levels than we do due to their demographics and fear of deportation)

Well.. that is partially true. Their children (born here) have coverage under Medicaid.

 

[Red Dawn]

The US has the best in medical care... if you are R$ch

 

[IronWing]

The opposition to single payer systems seems to come from folks who are so totally focused on the idea that someone unworthy might gain a benefit that they ignore the benefits that they themselves would enjoy. So rather than vote for their own self interest they vote their hate and fear.

 

[Asane]

Way too many people in the US cares too much about their healthcare to entrust it in someone else's hands. Add to that the universal healthcare reeks of communism in American eyes as well.

 

[RbSX]

The poor pay a lot of taxes. There are more taxes than income taxes.

Ugh most here don't know anything about how the Canadian medical system works.

Rich or poor, you pay into a fund monthly that is dedicated to paying for the health system, here in BC, it's called the MSP. Depending on the size of your family, you pay a certain rate.

If you're a rich family making 500,000 a year, or a middle income family at 50,000 a year, or a lower middle income at 30,000 a year you pay the same fee for a family of 4.

If your familial income is less than 28,000 or so you get a percentage off, sliding down to 18,000 a year where it is free.

 

[Craig234]

1. Maintain physician salaries. Cut salaries and smart students will go to other fields. I certainly would. And I dont want my urologist to be the guy that couldn't get into business school.

Have you looked at other countries who pay doctors less (pretty much all of them is my impression)? Do you have studies showing the effect on quality of service?

Maybe having doctors who want to help people instead of ones who wouldn't be there except for big bucks will IMPROVE care.

I find it interesting that money is your #1 item.

2. Severe changes in the right to sue. The goverment is not going to fund the current system of jackpot payouts. The cost of taking a case to trial is about $200,000 and thats if you win. The cost of my malpractice is about $90,000 per year, and that is without any judgements.

That tells me only about the insurance companies. Are they gouging? It doesn't prove lawsuits are excessive - or that 'reform' wouldn't be an injustice.

3. The goverment will need to subsidize the pharmaceutical industry. Much like industries such as defense. We will need to pay for costly research. And it will likely lead to less research being done.

I like that - democracy-driven research. There's no reason it has to be less.

4. The goverment will have to purchase all the property of the private physicians/hospitals/ labs and xray facilities. This alone could bankrupt the goverment.

That's why we create a plan. And the government is already paying for a lot of that equipment, through Medicare/Medicaid, just much less efficiently.

5. Our current tax system could not in any fair way figure out how to distribute the increase in taxes.

Political problem.

 

[JSt0rm]

sounds great.
but, our for profit system also pays for most of the research that supports all of the not for profit systems in the world.

Do you want to do away with the hugely expensive process of medical research and approval of new treatments and drugs?

Are you one of the people that want to do away with patent law too?

Actually the NIH does most of the research.

 

[JSt0rm]

The stupidity that gets spewed from the pigs of America is just insane.

now that the schools produce rocks don't expect critical thinking skills from this side of the pond.