For those still contending black people are not punished more for the same crime as a norm...

[HomerJS]

I give you 4 white men and a black woman. In this case the black woman thought she was eligible. The white guys were intentional. Hint: the black woman was sentenced to 6 years in prison. The white people got probation to a max of 3 days in jail.
GOP men hardly punished for illegal votes; Black woman given six years for sign-up error (msnbc.com)


I give you 4 white people and a black woman. This is the same retirement community that had the parade on golf carts chanting "white power". Remember INTENTIONALLY voted illegally.
4th resident of Florida retirement haven arrested for voter fraud (msn.com)

Crystal Mason who I've mentioned many times sentenced to 5 years in prison for voting when she thought eligible. Again an accident
Crystal Mason - Wikipedia

Once again another comparison to white people being sentenced

Supporters of Mason and voter rights activists have pointed out the discrepancy between Mason's sentencing and the sentencing of Terri Lynn Rote, who tried to vote for Donald Trump twice; Bruce Bartman, who voted under his own name and, using an expired identification, on his deceased mother's ballot; and Justice of the Peace Russ Casey, who admitted to forging signatures to get on the primary ballot. Rote, Bartman, and Casey received two and five years' probation instead of Mason's five-year sentence to jail.

Iowa woman who tried to vote for Donald Trump twice gets two years probation and $750 fine | The Independent | The Independent

 

[Moonbeam]

The only people who believe that the American justice system treats people equally are brain dead.

 

[K1052]

The end goal of Republicans is to make it illegal to even bring race into a discussion about racial disparities in the justice system. Since Roberts declared racism over its the next logical step.

 

[HomerJS]

The end goal of Republicans is to make it illegal to even bring race into a discussion about racial disparities in the justice system. Since Roberts declared racism over its the next logical step.

Irony of all ironies Roberts in the Alabama redistricting case said Republicans clearly violated the Civil Rights Act that a federal court said was racially gerrymandered.
Roberts claimed racism was over and those same Republicans engaged in an act that would have been stopped by the pre-clearance provision of the VRA gutted in 2013.

More evidence this country has been moving backwards in the last 10 years.

 

[K1052]

Irony of all ironies Roberts in the Alabama redistricting case said Republicans clearly violated the Civil Rights Act that a federal court said was racially gerrymandered.
Roberts claimed racism was over and those same Republicans engaged in an act that would have been stopped by the pre-clearance provision of the VRA gutted in 2013.

More evidence this country has been moving backwards in the last 10 years.

This is why it doesn't much matter what Congress passes in terms of election laws because this SCOTUS will simply decide to shit can it for any made up reasons that please them.

The court is freaked out about an escalating credibility and reputational crisis they've created for themselves. People like Alito and Kavanaugh blame us for having eyes and ears.

 

[interchange]

I don't know if individual case examples are the best way to illustrate this. It is crystal clear that on a number of levels people of color are systematically disadvantaged in our justice system, and in general it is fundamentally broken regardless of race. Any objective analysis would reveal racial bias and outright racism affect verdicts and sentencing.

As to whether these people are actually innocent as they claim, I have no idea. Even if guilty, the disparity in sentencing is very problematic.

 

[HomerJS]

I don't know if individual case examples are the best way to illustrate this. It is crystal clear that on a number of levels people of color are systematically disadvantaged in our justice system, and in general it is fundamentally broken regardless of race. Any objective analysis would reveal racial bias and outright racism affect verdicts and sentencing.

As to whether these people are actually innocent as they claim, I have no idea. Even if guilty, the disparity in sentencing is very problematic.

I illustrated these cases because the vote is such a front facing issue. It's not just the vote...

pot possession
traffic stops
searches after traffic stops
just a few

I challenged anyone to find one offense where white people are punished more severely then minorities.

 

[darkswordsman17]

The only people who believe that the American justice system treats people equally are brain dead.

And the only people that think both political sides are the same have chosen to be brain dead.

 

[Dave_5k]

I illustrated these cases because the vote is such a front facing issue. It's not just the vote...

pot possession
traffic stops
searches after traffic stops
just a few

I challenged anyone to find one offense where white people are punished more severely then minorities.

Demonstrating examples of the opposite is far easier From other thread, linking again the egregious Minneapolis example, if anything the disparity is worse for lower level (more discretionary) offenses

MPD stop and search black drivers at 29 times the rate of white drivers for equipment violations

MPD stop and search black drivers at 29 times the rate of white drivers for equipment violations. Racial disparities in police stops continue despite pledged reform.

www.kare11.com

And studies showing 3x more likely to charge Black people with small amounts of marijuana possession, despite similar levels of usage; and up to 9.6x more likely to charge Black people with low level discretionary charges like loitering.

Study Documents Extreme Racial Disparity in Arrests for Low-Level Offenses | American Civil Liberties Union

www.aclu.org

 

[hal2kilo]

Well, they are certainly asked questions by Republican Senators of a possible black female SCOTUS nominee, that are never asked of while male SCOTUS nominees.

The Offensive, Bizarre, and Offensively Bizarre Questions Republicans Have Asked Ketanji Brown Jackson – Mother Jones

 

[nakedfrog]

Well, they are certainly asked questions by Republican Senators of a possible black female SCOTUS nominee, that are never asked of while male SCOTUS nominees.

The Offensive, Bizarre, and Offensively Bizarre Questions Republicans Have Asked Ketanji Brown Jackson – Mother Jones

Massive eye roll:

1. Are you aware of the dark money left wing group Demand Justice?
a. Are you aware that you are on their “shortlist” for the Supreme Court?

Federalist Society, anyone?

 

[vi edit]

Massive eye roll:

Federalist Society, anyone?

Right. Hell when it was still *CANDIDATE* Trump he was peddling a list of names for SC picks. Spare me the faux outcry.

 

[vi edit]

Also, this happened last year and absolute crickets. Not sure if it moved over to Senate.

House passes bill to end crack and powder cocaine sentencing disparity

The House passed legislation on Tuesday that would eliminate the federal disparity in prison sentences for crack and powder cocaine offenses, in an effort to enact criminal justice reform on a bipa…

thehill.com

Crack cocaine and cocaine are the same drug. One's just cheaper than the other and sentenced at almost 100:1. Guess which one impacts minorities more.

The EQUAL Act would finally close the cocaine sentencing disparity

Crack still carries harsher criminal penalties than powder cocaine — a racist legacy of the war on drugs.

www.vox.com

"The cocaine sentencing disparity is one of the most notable and obvious manifestations of the racist impact of these laws. The 1986 Anti-Drug Abuse Act created a 100 to 1 disparity between the amount of crack cocaine that triggers a federal mandatory minimum sentence versus powder cocaine. Five grams of crack mandated a five-year sentence — 500 grams of powder cocaine was required to trigger the same sentence."

 

[HomerJS]

Even on the worldwide Olympic stage. Both athletes failed drug tests for banned substances. The white girl was allowed to compete. The black girl was suspended.
Sha’Carri Richardson calls out double standard in Valieva case (nypost.com)

 

[maluckey1]

A good place for actual numbers without opinion.

Some Black intellectuals believe that culture and perceived socioeconomic status, not necessarily nature, are the primary cause of much of the imbalance. This, coupled with the Law of the Instrument are a bad combination. I know this won't sit well with the forum, and its affirmation bias, but it's worth a shot to put actual numbers out there for people to discuss as they see fit.

FBI — Table 67

 

[dank69]

"Some Black intellectuals" can kiss my ass:

Police response to N.J. mall fight sparks outrage after Black teen cuffed as white teen watches

“Although an investigation is still gathering the facts about this incident, I’m deeply disturbed by what appears to be racially disparate treatment in this video," Gov. Phil Murphy said.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[woolfe9998]

Anecdotes are pointless. Are the five cases mentioned the sum total of all people who have ever been arrested for voter fraud? I'm guessing not. See, this is the problem with people trying to make a political point, any political point, these days. Use an anecdote like this, and who knows whether there are black people who got off easy or white people who did hard time who are not part of the selected sample under discussion.

I would point out a few things about this particular case. First, the white people mentioned all plead guilty, while she took her case to trial. Being found guilty after trial almost always results in a longer sentence than pleading guilty. Most likely under some sort of plea bargain arrangement.

Second, the woman in this case wasn't allowed to vote because she had been imprisoned for tax fraud. The fact of this prior criminal conviction is something her judge likely considered when deciding her sentence. I do not know if any of those other people had prior felony convictions.

Third, it being a "mistake" is what she claims. Clearly her jury did not believe her or she wouldn't have been convicted to begin with. Because the law requires intent. Hence, her claim of mistake is not relevant here. If she really did make a mistake, the sentence isn't the issue. Her being convicted is the issue. Once someone is convicted, the judge will deliver a sentence based on the assumption that the person is guilty, and any defenses become irrelevant at that point.

 

[maluckey1]

Something else to think about.

Dupree-Fiske-2019.pdf (squarespace.com)

 

[dank69]

Anecdotes are pointless. Are the five cases mentioned the sum total of all people who have ever been arrested for voter fraud? I'm guessing not. See, this is the problem with people trying to make a political point, any political point, these days. Use an anecdote like this, and who knows whether there are black people who got off easy or white people who did hard time who are not part of the selected sample under discussion.

I would point out a few things about this particular case. First, the white people mentioned all plead guilty, while she took her case to trial. Being found guilty after trial almost always results in a longer sentence than pleading guilty. Most likely under some sort of plea bargain arrangement.

Second, the woman in this case wasn't allowed to vote because she had been imprisoned for tax fraud. The fact of this prior criminal conviction is something her judge likely considered when deciding her sentence. I do not know if any of those other people had prior felony convictions.

Third, it being a "mistake" is what she claims. Clearly her jury did not believe her or she wouldn't have been convicted to begin with. Because the law requires intent. Hence, her claim of mistake is not relevant here. If she really did make a mistake, the sentence isn't the issue. Her being convicted is the issue. Once someone is convicted, the judge will deliver a sentence based on the assumption that the person is guilty, and any defenses become irrelevant at that point.

How often do you think white people are the victims of discrimination in our justice system all the way through from arrest to release/death. I'll venture a guess and say it has happened exactly zero times in the entire history of the US. How many black people are such victims each year, if you had to guess? 5? 50? 500? 5000? More? Zero?

 

[woolfe9998]

How often do you think white people are the victims of discrimination in our justice system all the way through from arrest to release/death. I'll venture a guess and say it has happened exactly zero times in the entire history of the US. How many black people are such victims each year, if you had to guess? 5? 50? 500? 5000? More? Zero?

I don't know man. How many? That is exactly the issue. We need better information that what anecdotes provide.

So far as white people being discriminated against in the system, it happens every day. But not because they're white. Because they're poor. Poor people can't hire good lawyers. They are stuck with public defenders who themselves can't afford to hire investigators and experts/labs. That is socioeconomic discrimination which is built right into the system.

Since black people are on average less well off economically than are white people, it presents a challenge to determine whether getting worse results from the system is evidence of racial discrimination or just the socioeconomic discrimination which is indisputably part of the system.

I have little doubt that black people face some amount of discrimination in the system, and everywhere else. Because racism toward black people still exists, it logically follows that there is some race based discrimination. But knowing how much requires a lot better data than what OP provides. We don't even know if race was a factor at all in the particular cases he presented.

 

[dank69]

I don't know man. How many? That is exactly the issue. We need better information that what anecdotes provide.

So far as white people being discriminated against in the system, it happens every day. But not because they're white. Because they're poor. Poor people can't hire good lawyers. They are stuck with public defenders who themselves can't afford to hire investigators and experts/labs. That is socioeconomic discrimination which is built right into the system.

But that is a separate issue and beside the point of this thread entirely.

Since black people are on average less well off economically than are white people, it presents a challenge to determine whether getting worse results from the system is evidence of racial discrimination or just the socioeconomic discrimination which is indisputably part of the system.

That is sticking-our-heads-in-the-sand level bullshit. It's difficult to quantify because nobody is going to admit they're doing it but we ALL know it happens and we ALL know it happens often. Quantify how many black men have been put to death and post-humously exonerated by DNA or other methods, and those are only the most extreme examples. For every one of those there are likely hundreds more that don't end with execution but are still horrific.

I have little doubt that black people face some amount of discrimination in the system, and everywhere else. Because racism toward black people still exists, it logically follows that there is some race based discrimination. But knowing how much requires a lot better data than what OP provides. We don't even know if race was a factor at all in the particular cases he presented.

And how do we get better data? I'm not sure it's possible. Until then, what? Do nothing?

 

[woolfe9998]

But that is a separate issue and beside the point of this thread entirely.

No, it NOT a separate issue. The entire point is that you can mistake one form of discrimination for the other. If a given black person ends up with what seems like too high of a sentence, it could be because he's black, or it could be because he's poor and couldn't afford a good lawyer.

That is sticking-our-heads-in-the-sand level bullshit. It's difficult to quantify because nobody is going to admit they're doing it but we ALL know it happens and we ALL know it happens often. Quantify how many black men have been put to death and post-humously exonerated by DNA or other methods, and those are only the most extreme examples. For every one of those there are likely hundreds more that don't end with execution but are still horrific.

Then compile that data and analyze it. How many black people have been posthumously exonerated by DNA versus how many white people. And that in relation to the total number of capital sentences for each race. And then you have to control for socio-economics. It isn't easy but it is possible.

What doesn't work is anecdotes. You can't just say look, this one black person got exonerated by DNA after execution, so it must be because racism. Or even if it's 10. Because you aren't looking at how many white people had the same thing happen to them.

And how do we get better data? I'm not sure it's possible. Until then, what? Do nothing?

See above.

What I have trouble with is people on the left just assuming that every time a bad thing happens to a black person, it's always because it's racism. Years back there was a white guy in Texas who was executed for allegedly lighting his house on fire, killing his two daughters. Turns out the fire was likely an accident, but the governor refused to pardon or commute even after being presented with the exculpatory evidence. Had that guy been black, there would have been cries of racism. The governor would have been called racist for not pardoning him. But since he's white, then it's OK to consider other possible reasons. It doesn't make sense.

So far as how to fix it, that would require ending racism, or at least diminishing it. I know that "systemic racism" from CRT is the new zeitgeist, but unequal outcomes will not end until racism itself ends. You can't just reform a system and think it will go away. The criminal justice system is not racist on the surface of it. There are no rules which disadvantage black people per se. But if a judge or juror(s) are racist, there is nothing you can do about that except address the underlying racism in society. For the most part, it's not the system. It's some of the people in it, and the society in which they exist.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

There are numerous studies that show black people go to prison at a FAR HIGHER rate for drugs than white people. You can look at any number of Google results or Duckduckgo results or just look at the raw numbers broken down on sites like FBI.gov. We are talking like 5-8 times more black people in prison (proportionately) than white people.

You can also look at numerous studies and estimates on how many people use drugs by race. Usage rates are almost identical between black and white people with the exception that white people typically use a slight amount more (albeit within the margin of error). This holds true across multiple drug categories, as well as usage, possession, manufacturing, sale, and transportation of drugs. Given the NON disparity between drug crimes between blacks and whites, even a 50% higher rate of black people in prison should be offensive to a society that claims to treat races equally. We're talking more like a 500% disparity. Even the person most turned off by slogans like "Black lives matter" should be appalled at these numbers and should be able to see the need for slogans like this in a society that doesn't value black lives the way it claims to.

Why does this matter? The long term effects of jailing a large portion of a community's young men are devastating. Despite those tear-jerker movies you've seen where prison makes the main character into a better person, prison does not make people better. Statistically, you are more likely to be violent, less likely to get a good paying job, more likely to be on drugs, and less likely to become educated if you have been to prison.

If you want to devastate a community and leave them mired in violence and poverty, you take away their opportunities in life, or you at the least make the opportunities VERY difficult to achieve. You make it so they lose their freedom, lose their loved ones, lose their opportunity to get student loans, lose out on the ability to get MOST jobs out there, and leave them hopeless and suffering from long term emotional problems from the abuse they experience in prison. And you make sure NOT to do those things in other (white) communities. That's where we are right now. And you can further compound it by condescendingly blaming them for where there are at in life despite the fact that you would never force these consequences on your own children.

I read a statistic that you'd have to put about 500,000 white men in jail RIGHT NOW just to have the same percentage of white male drug users in prison as black male drug users. That would be devastating to the future of these men and their communities. What is worse than living next door to a druggie? Living next door to a druggie who just got out of jail after 4 years and has PTSD, no hope of an education, no hope of a decent job, and is still a druggie since prison rape doesn't cure addiction. We just made that guy a worse human being and then released him into the community.

 

[HomerJS]

A good place for actual numbers without opinion.

Some Black intellectuals believe that culture and perceived socioeconomic status, not necessarily nature, are the primary cause of much of the imbalance. This, coupled with the Law of the Instrument are a bad combination. I know this won't sit well with the forum, and its affirmation bias, but it's worth a shot to put actual numbers out there for people to discuss as they see fit.

FBI — Table 67

You assume a lot. The numbers you provided are an interesting genesis for discussion, but they are not the topic of this thread.

 

[HomerJS]

No, it NOT a separate issue. The entire point is that you can mistake one form of discrimination for the other. If a given black person ends up with what seems like too high of a sentence, it could be because he's black, or it could be because he's poor and couldn't afford a good lawyer.



Then compile that data and analyze it. How many black people have been posthumously exonerated by DNA versus how many white people. And that in relation to the total number of capital sentences for each race. And then you have to control for socio-economics. It isn't easy but it is possible.

What doesn't work is anecdotes. You can't just say look, this one black person got exonerated by DNA after execution, so it must be because racism. Or even if it's 10. Because you aren't looking at how many white people had the same thing happen to them.



See above.

What I have trouble with is people on the left just assuming that every time a bad thing happens to a black person, it's always because it's racism. Years back there was a white guy in Texas who was executed for allegedly lighting his house on fire, killing his two daughters. Turns out the fire was likely an accident, but the governor refused to pardon or commute even after being presented with the exculpatory evidence. Had that guy been black, there would have been cries of racism. The governor would have been called racist for not pardoning him. But since he's white, then it's OK to consider other possible reasons. It doesn't make sense.

So far as how to fix it, that would require ending racism, or at least diminishing it. I know that "systemic racism" from CRT is the new zeitgeist, but unequal outcomes will not end until racism itself ends. You can't just reform a system and think it will go away. The criminal justice system is not racist on the surface of it. There are no rules which disadvantage black people per se. But if a judge or juror(s) are racist, there is nothing you can do about that except address the underlying racism in society. For the most part, it's not the system. It's some of the people in it, and the society in which they exist.

Being one where racism is an important issue I don't assume anything. I do however challenge a given situation to show equitable treatment. When I ask that equitable treatment is rarely found.

As for your comment on systemic racism I would for now settle for an acknowledgment of its existence, but a large group of people refuse. These same people bitch about CRT in public schools which really does not exist.

How about reality for starters??