For those who believe in the power of prayer...

[OCNewbie]

You can discredit both if you want. Your choice, their choice.

Simple.

What is your opinion of the Quran?

 

[OCNewbie]

nt

 

[pelov]

You can discredit both if you want. Your choice, their choice.

Simple.

There's a difference, though.

Only I can explain mine.

Here's what I mean...

For all other religions, gods, prophets, -- for all intents and purposes you're an atheist. You don't follow their religion nor do you believe in their respective gods' existence. You won't believe them until they can show you, with absolute certainty, that their religion is the true religion and not your own.

I feel the exact same way and share the same sentiment...with 1 small detail: I went so far as to include yours in the same way you discredited theirs.

Therefore, I'd consider it quite apt to call both you and I atheists, with the only difference being that one extra step I was willing to take.

 

[Retro Rob]

What is your opinion of the Quran?

I don't know anything about it, to be honest. Never read it. So I have no opinion.

 

[OCNewbie]

I don't know anything about it, to be honest. Never read it. So I have no opinion.

With millions and millions (1.6 Billion, according to wiki) of followers around the world, using the Quran as the basis of their ticket to salvation in the afterlife, don't you think you owe it to your spirit that you look into it?

 

[Retro Rob]

There's a difference, though.

Only I can explain mine.

Here's what I mean...

For all other religions, gods, prophets, -- for all intents and purposes you're an atheist. You don't follow their religion nor do you believe in their respective gods' existence. You won't believe them until they can show you, with absolute certainty, that their religion is the true religion and not your own.

I feel the exact same way and share the same sentiment...with 1 small detail: I went so far as to include yours in the same way you discredited theirs.

Therefore, I'd consider it quite apt to call both you and I atheists, with the only difference being that one extra step I was willing to take.

So be it then.

The OT isn't discredited by me. A simple explanation is that Jesus' death fulfilled the OC (Old Covenant) and we no longer have to observe the Sabbath... if one is a Christian anyway.

So, that what makes it a history book for the Jews. Mind you, Christianity wasn't started back then, Jesus name doesn't even appear in the OT. With the establishement of Christianity on the First Centrury, Christians follow Jesus, hence, the term Christian.

The OT isn't irrelevant, thought. But it's not something Christians are obligated to follow.

 

[Retro Rob]

With millions and millions (1.6 Billion, according to wiki) of followers around the world, using the Quran as the basis of their ticket to salvation in the afterlife, don't you think you owe it to your spirit that you look into it?

No, not really.

 

[OCNewbie]

No, not really.

I see, so you don't want to talk about it?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Jeff7:

Your objection is that faith works exactly as I said it does and can be helpful in many ways.

I'm not advocating prayer and nothing else; but from a pragmatic point of view you've done nothing but prove that prayer is a good thing.

 

[Retro Rob]

I see, so you don't want to talk about it?

Honestly, Im thinking that regardless what I say for or against Muslim faith, you're going to find a way to descredit my beliefs.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

If anyone truly believed in the power of prayer when they were having a heart attack they'd pray rather than calling an ambulance. When their house was on fire they'd pray rather than calling the fire department. When caught in a gang shoot-out they'd pray and keep walking rather than diving behind cover. When seeing a hurricane bearing down on them they'd pray rather than buying food/water, flashlight batteries and plywood for their windows. The power of prayer is a sham and even the people who claim to pray know it. When the chips are down people turn to who they trust most and that trust is placed in the police and fire department, doctors and EMTs far more quickly and readily than it is placed in the invisible man in the sky. People only start praying AFTER they've called for real help.

 

[OCNewbie]

Honestly, Im thinking that regardless what I say for or against Muslim faith, you're going to find a way to descredit my beliefs.

I'm just wondering if you've considered that your faith (Christianity) and the faith of Islam both base the entirety of their beliefs on a book, and everything stems from those books. As I mentioned earlier, the Islamic faith includes 1.6 billion followers worldwide, whereas the Christian faith (according to a brief Google search) has approximately 2.2 billion.

Do you doubt that the followers of Islam aren't as convinced that their holy book, the Quran, is just as much a direct word of God than Christians believe of the bible? It appears there are scores of those worldwide that are willing to go to extreme lengths in support of the Islamic faith (suicide bombings, beheadings, killing innocents in non-Islamic countries, etc.). The followers of Islam are very devout, going to great lengths, and making many sacrifices in the name of "Allah", and the teachings of the Quran.

Basically, what I'm getting down to is, if that many people, undoubtedly many many of whom are very intelligent, and who have studied the Quran just as much as Christian scholars have studied the Bible, can be so convinced and confident in a religion that is so divergent from modern-day Christianity, so in a sense have been "duped" into the "wrong" belief system, what is different about the followers of Christianity that makes them immune to such an errant, misguided path?

Edit: In other words, they both use the same formula, with just different ingredients (stories, etc.).

 

[pelov]

So be it then.

No, you're still not getting it.

When it comes to all the other religions on this planet, both current and those gone, you're quite content to discredit them and require that they show proof -- just as all other atheists. Yet when it comes to your own religion you don't share the same approach, for no other reason than "because."

Don't you see an issue with that?

I guess my question is, why not that one extra step? It's not like it would be any different than your approach to islam or shintoism, yet, for you, christianity has to be kept in a bubble that protects it from your own onslaught of practicality.

You're a hypocrite.

 

[Jeff7]

Jeff7:

Your objection is that faith works exactly as I said it does and can be helpful in many ways.

I'm not advocating prayer and nothing else; but from a pragmatic point of view you've done nothing but prove that prayer is a good thing.

All prayer can do is put someone's mind at ease, if that's the kind of thing does it for them. But sometimes prayer is used in place of real treatments or actions that do real and measurable good. That's where it is damaging.

Interseting point. I tend to think that the people who spread disease and kill people are the ones to blame for it. Not God.

As far as allowing and being blamed for that? I used to think that. Until I thought about something.

When your children grow up, they can become whatever they want in life even if it's a killer, drug abuser and so on. We can't blame the parents for that because they were allowed to be what they wanted to be in life.

God has the power to stop it? True, he does. But he also give us free will. How we use/misuse it is totally up to each person. It's not like God didn't provide people something to live by, but most people disgard the Bible for various reasons. So, not following the instruction book results in us not doing things correctly, and causes others and ourselves to suffer. Not God's fault.

Thankfully, the book is so well-written that it is impossible for anyone to misinterpret or even contradict on any rational level, which is why there is a single religion that unifies everyone on the planet.
:hmm:

So, can we really blame God if we (1) choose to do bad things to others, (2) ignore the Bible.. the book provided to guide us (3) completely ignore the fact that the Bible says the world is under Satan's control?

I just took time to really think about that and come to a more reasonable conclusion.

The world is under Satan's control?
- That's a sign of pretty pitiful management, especially for a being of infinite power.
- Maybe the Bible was written and delivered by Satan, as his greatest trick ever. That'd be some excellent trolling right there, on his part. :awe:
So yeah, I'd pretty well lay some serious blame on God for even bringing an entity like Satan into existence. (And if God, maker of everything, didn't make Satan, where'd he come from? And why is God so very courteous as to let him run free and wreak havoc on his favorite planet in the Universe?)


I'm going to get a hamster and put him into a large and lavishly-appointed enclosure, and also put a spike-covered ball with an internal guidance system in there. The spike-covered ball isn't heavy enough to kill the hamster, but every so often it'll just up and pursue the critter, and make him bleed just a bit if it manages to catch him off-guard. The hamster is free to decide if he ever wants to venture to the ground level, which is where the water bottle is located. Otherwise, he can choose to remain in the upper levels, away from the spiked ball.
If I do that, I'm cruel and sadistic.
If God does it, he's loving and benevolent.

 

[Retro Rob]

I'm just wondering if you've considered that your faith (Christianity) and the faith of Islam both base the entirety of their beliefs on a book, and everything stems from those books. As I mentioned earlier, the Islamic faith includes 1.6 billion followers worldwide, whereas the Christian faith (according to a brief Google search) has approximately 2.2 billion.

Like I said, I don't know much about Muslim faith.

However, if they call themselves followers of whomever they follow, they only have recorded history.

You say it like it's a bad thing. I would remind you that we base our own american history off a book or books or we would not know anything about it. It's been recorded so we know about it because we weren't there to see it.

We all use "books" in school, science, everything. I think the difference is that people do bad things in the name of said",... pa "bookrticularly in religion. So then you all curse the "book" and not the people who do it.

How else can Christians and Mulsims or whatever religion, learn about the history of said religion?

Do you doubt that the followers of Islam aren't as convinced that their holy book, the Quran, is just as much a direct word of God than Christians believe of the bible? It appears there are scores of those worldwide that are willing to go to extreme lengths in support of the Islamic faith (suicide bombings, beheadings, killing innocents in non-Islamic countries, etc.). The followers of Islam are very devout, going to great lengths, and making many sacrifices in the name of "Allah", and the teachings of the Quran.

Yes I do.

Basically, what I'm getting down to is, if that many people, undoubtedly many many of whom are very intelligent, mentally gifted individuals, can be so convinced and confident in a religion that is so divergent from modern-day Christianity, so in a sense have been "duped" into the "wrong" belief system, what is different about the followers of Christianity that makes them immune to such an errant, misguided path?

I never said they are immune to a wrong path. In fact, even if there was s true religion, no human could follow Jesus' path perfectly. To answer, IMO, it boils down to how strong someone's faith is in the Bible. Simple. Not a religion per se' because religion can be horribly flawed in and of itself. We see the wars based on religion.

I would say to avoid that "miguided" path, do what Jesus did.. if one even believes he existed. He didn't wage war on people, kill infidels, mistreat people of different ethnic/religious background.

I heard a musilm say Muhammed would never condone violence or retaliate in like manner. Well, those who are killing aren't following him. If that's the case, remove yourself from the religion. I can't really say more than that.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, you're still not getting it.

When it comes to all the other religions on this planet, both current and those gone, you're quite content to discredit them and require that they show proof -- just as all other atheists. Yet when it comes to your own religion you don't share the same approach, for no other reason than "because."

What kind of proof do you want? Obviously, the Bible won't be enough or even acceptable. If you want proof, you have to be willing to entertain it.

I even made a post concerning why the Sabbath isn't something Christians are obligated to follow. What more do you want?

You never even addresssed that.

 

[pelov]

I'm not advocating prayer and nothing else; but from a pragmatic point of view you've done nothing but prove that prayer is a good thing.

CHICAGO — Praying for a sick heart patient may feel right to people of faith, but it doesn't appear to improve the patient's health, according to a new study that is the largest ever done on the healing powers of prayer.

Indeed, researchers at the Harvard Medical School and five other U.S. medical centers found, to their bewilderment, that coronary-bypass patients who knew strangers were praying for them fared significantly worse than people who got no prayers. The team speculated that telling patients about the prayers may have caused "performance anxiety," or perhaps a fear that doctors expected the worst.

http://seattletimes.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html

For the love of god, don't pray for anybody!

What kind of proof do you want? Obviously, the Bible won't be enough or even acceptable. If you want proof, you have to be willing to entertain it.

I even made a post concerning why the Sabbath isn't something Christians are obligated to follow. What more do you want?

You never even addresssed that.

The same kind of proof you'd require of any other religion.

 

[Jeff7]

What kind of proof do you want? Obviously, the Bible won't be enough or even acceptable. If you want proof, you have to be willing to entertain it.

I even made a post concerning why the Sabbath isn't something Christians are obligated to follow. What more do you want?

You never even addresssed that.

For my part, I don't know what it would take. Extraordinary claims, extraordinary evidence, all that.

This deity that's been created has:
- infinite power
- infinite knowledge
- infinite capability
- infinite benevolence

That's going to take some pretty serious evidence.

I would be more willing to entertain the idea that we're the result of a massive simulation, or the result of some "create-a-Universe" experiment, done up by some aliens that are a few billion years ahead of us in technology, like comparing the technology of bacteria to our capabilities. They're still not gods. They're just advanced life forms. But in either case, it would seem that the makers of this reality have little interest in meddling with daily affairs, so they effectively don't exist.

And still I would find those possibilities to be far more likely than this God of the Infinities entity.

...
The same kind of proof you'd require of any other religion.

Religion. Proof is not necessarily required.


And isn't it grand that we happen to live in a time period which includes the "correct" religion? Good thing we didn't live 35,000 years ago. Those guys are so totally screwed.

 

[pelov]

And isn't it grand that we happen to live in a time period which includes the "correct" religion? Good thing we didn't live 35,000 years ago. Those guys are so totally screwed.

I'm thankful to the old hippies who jotted down what the J-dude was saying, otherwise we'd have no bible and we'd all be fucked!

 

[Retro Rob]

http://seattletimes.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html

For the love of god, don't pray for anybody!



The same kind of proof you'd require of any other religion.

That's not what I asked.

And for the record, I don't require proof from any other religion.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

http://seattletimes.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html

For the love of god, don't pray for anybody!



The same kind of proof you'd require of any other religion.

Many flaws with that study; the most important of which is that I knew of it before hand and formulated my arguments while taking it into account.

The benefits I offered are based on our best social research on emotional contagion in a group.

So you've not actually answered anything... But then again i'm looking for intellectual honestly from someone who calls himself pedo-love on the internet.

But sometimes prayer is used in place of real treatments or actions that do real and measurable good. That's where it is damaging.

/agree

 

[pelov]

And for the record, I don't require proof from any other religion.

You discredit it and you know yours is right -- which is why you don't believe in the others. Therefore, there are reasons you don't believe in the others but believe in your own religion.

So you've actually answered anything... But then again i'm looking for intellectual honestly from someone who calls himself pedo-love on the internet.

I haven't read the actual study but I have read the reports of it. Granted, I haven't read the ones you're talking about either. Still, I don't understand why you're getting bitchy? Perhaps it's the full moon bringing out the wise and beautiful woman in you. Did the jesus-bashing strike a nerve? If so, I'll continue.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Because we live in a culture of the self. From Facebook to Twitter people believe they are the most important thing and only their selfish wants and desires matter.

They can't accept that they can belong to something greater than themselves and that their passions and needs aren't the most important thing in the universe. They only strive for more self adoration.

Do you understand how ironic it is that you sit there talking down to others so you can feel high and mighty and much better than them all while you are calling THEM self important?

I belong to something greater than myself but i am not one of the super self centered people who sit and think that while millions of innocent children die i am so important that god cares more for me than he does for them.

You are not gods special children, you're just another bag of meat who inhibits this planet and no more special than any other bag of meat here.

 

[Retro Rob]

You discredit it and you know yours is right -- which is why you don't believe in the others. Therefore, there are reasons you don't believe in the others but believe in your own religion.

Well, ok...

Whatever floats your boat.

You want proof, I ask you what. You dodge.

You don't want proof, you'd rather flap your gums.....

 

[Dr. Zaus]

You discredit it and you know yours is right -- which is why you don't believe in the others. Therefore, there are reasons you don't believe in the others but believe in your own religion.





I haven't read the actual study but I have read the reports of it. Granted, I haven't read the ones you're talking about either. Still, I don't understand why you're getting bitchy? Perhaps it's the full moon bringing out the wise and beautiful woman in you. Did the jesus-bashing strike a nerve? If so, I'll continue.

huh... I'm not upset?

Is it because I figured out what pe-lov means?

I was just trying to be funny

My religion is right because it works for me and I'm happy with who I am. If someone else is happy with who they are then they should keep on doing whatever they are doing; if not then I know of an alternate path and am happy to share how to get onto it (and accept anyone of any other path that would like to make the same offer)