for those who drive manual trans vehicles

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
It's not the "emergency" brake, it's the "parking" brake. It's what should be holding the car in place. The transmission is the fail-safe just in case the parking brake fails.
ZV

damn you are the asshat. semantics really doesn't fit in motorsports.

You one of those guys that preach it's not an accident, it's a wreck?

On top of that, you don't understand how turning an engine at the crank is any different than at the connecting rods even when I added 'most of the time it doensn't matter'

wear your geek crown proud, you earned it.

You're just not worth it, you know that?

 

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
It's not the "emergency" brake, it's the "parking" brake. It's what should be holding the car in place. The transmission is the fail-safe just in case the parking brake fails.
ZV

damn you are the asshat. semantics really doesn't fit in motorsports.

You one of those guys that preach it's not an accident, it's a wreck?

On top of that, you don't understand how turning an engine at the crank is any different than at the connecting rods even when I added 'most of the time it doensn't matter'

wear your geek crown proud, you earned it.

I would take Zemmervolts worst advice over your best advice anyday of the week.

 

[Firus]

Originally posted by: Tommunist
leave it in 1st and pull the e-brake (unless i'm on very very very flat ground and then maybe i'll just leave it in first).

This is what I do as well.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
You should always leave the car in either 1st or reverse when parked. The emergency brake is exactly what it means...for emergencies. It is not meant to be the only thing holding the car still when parked.

And it is easier for the car to roll in the higher gears, as someone mentioned, so don't leave it in 4th or 5th thinking it won't roll down a hill....it will.

It's not the "emergency" brake, it's the "parking" brake. It's what should be holding the car in place. The transmission is the fail-safe just in case the parking brake fails.

I always set the parking brake, put the car in neutral, let the brake take a set and make sure it holds the car, then I put the transmission in gear (if manual) or in park (if automatic). The transmission is _not_ supposed to be what holds the car.

ZV

ZV, if that's the case, then why do automatic transmissions have Park?

Because it's the exact same thing.

Take two cars that are identical except one's an auto and one's a manual.

They have the exact same, identical, not-a-damn-bit-of-difference E-brakes. Or parking brakes, whatever.

So why is the brake supposed to be the main thing that holds the stick, and the tranny is what holds the automatic?

I'll tell you: The brake is not and never was supposed to be the main safety device. That's why the were originally called "emergency brakes". They are called parking brakes now so people will think they are supposed to use them when they park.

What's more likely to give way, an E-brake ratchet or the transmission? Obviously not the transmission, stick or automatic.

Again, with a stick car, you should ALWAYS leave it in gear, and ALWAYS have the E-brake engaged.
Never leave just the brake on, and if you do on flat surfaces, then make damn sure you don't do it on a hill.
I'll put the holding power of the tranny in first or reverse on a steep incline over the e-brake any day.

 

[arcenite]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
You should always leave the car in either 1st or reverse when parked. The emergency brake is exactly what it means...for emergencies. It is not meant to be the only thing holding the car still when parked.

And it is easier for the car to roll in the higher gears, as someone mentioned, so don't leave it in 4th or 5th thinking it won't roll down a hill....it will.

It's not the "emergency" brake, it's the "parking" brake. It's what should be holding the car in place. The transmission is the fail-safe just in case the parking brake fails.

I always set the parking brake, put the car in neutral, let the brake take a set and make sure it holds the car, then I put the transmission in gear (if manual) or in park (if automatic). The transmission is _not_ supposed to be what holds the car.

ZV

ZV, if that's the case, then why do automatic transmissions have Park?

Because it's the exact same thing.

Take two cars that are identical except one's an auto and one's a manual.

They have the exact same, identical, not-a-damn-bit-of-difference E-brakes. Or parking brakes, whatever.

So why is the brake supposed to be the main thing that holds the stick, and the tranny is what holds the automatic?

I'll tell you: The brake is not and never was supposed to be the main safety device. That's why the were originally called "emergency brakes". They are called parking brakes now so people will think they are supposed to use them when they park.

What's more likely to give way, an E-brake ratchet or the transmission? Obviously not the transmission, stick or automatic.

Again, with a stick car, you should ALWAYS leave it in gear, and ALWAYS have the E-brake engaged.
Never leave just the brake on, and if you do on flat surfaces, then make damn sure you don't do it on a hill.
I'll put the holding power of the tranny in first or reverse on a steep incline over the e-brake any day.

Because park is meant to keep the car from moving. The driving gears are supposed to help the car move.

Edit: Always remember, the easier it is for the motor to turn the wheels, the harder it is for the wheels to turn the engine. Try this some time: Put your car in 5th or 6th gear, and have your friends push. Try again in first.

I use the same method ZV uses, usually using Reverse (cause it sounds cooler than saying I use first)

 

[SilentRavens]

Hmmm I always put it into 2nd for some unknown reason, but, it is typically in -a- gear when parked.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: arcenite

Because park is meant to keep the car from moving. The driving gears are supposed to help the car move.

I use the same method ZV uses, usually using Reverse (cause it sounds cooler than saying I use first)

And the method he described is fine, but never forget to leave the trans in gear. That's what some folks are saying isn't necessary.

And no, the trans isn't just for moving the car. It's for slowing it, and holding it still. Read the owner's manual.

 

[arcenite]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: arcenite

Because park is meant to keep the car from moving. The driving gears are supposed to help the car move.

I use the same method ZV uses, usually using Reverse (cause it sounds cooler than saying I use first)

And the method he described is fine, but never forget to leave the trans in gear. That's what some folks are saying isn't necessary.

And no, the trans isn't just for moving the car. It's for slowing it, and holding it still. Read the owner's manual.

The trans isn't built to keep the car from moving, while it can, that's not what it's built for. I never said it was for acceleration, I said movement (or motion read: anything but stopped)

That's why you use it as a fail-safe, not an only-safe.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Again that is incorrect. You're much less likely to have a tranny fail and let a car roll than to have an e-brake fail and let the car roll.

And nowhere did I say that you only need to do one or the other. I recommend, as do all manufacturers, to use the e-brake AND leave it in gear, preferably first or reverse.

What I am saying is that they call them emergency brakes for a reason, and that reason is, they are the backup restraint....the tranny is the first thing that's supposed to be holding the car.
That's why they were called "emergency brakes" in the first place.

Again, the transmission, whether it's an automatic or a manual, is much stronger and less likely to fail than any e-brake.

 

[arcenite]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Again that is incorrect. You're much less likely to have a tranny fail and let a car roll than to have an e-brake fail and let the car roll.

Oh

And nowhere did I say that you only need to do one or the other. I recommend, as do all manufacturers, to use the e-brake AND leave it in gear, preferably first or reverse.

No argument there

What I am saying is that they call them emergency brakes for a reason, and that reason is, they are the backup restraint....the tranny is the first thing that's supposed to be holding the car.
That's why they were called "emergency brakes" in the first place.

They're also commonly called parking brakes

Again, the transmission, whether it's an automatic or a manual, is much stronger and less likely to fail than any e-brake.

I agree, but the parking brake (e-brake) is the front line. There is no reason to keep the load on the transmission unnecessarily.

 

[Pacfanweb]

But why would you want the weight of the car on just two rear brakes, a ratchet assembly and some cables, rather than heavy-duty gears, clutch and the engine?

They are designed to hold up when accelerating and decelerating the car.....so why wouldn't you want them to be the main thing that's holding the car still, when there's no momentum or inertia?

Edit: How about this....you don't slow down with your e-brake, right? Because it's not designed to stop the car.

But you do decelerate with the tranny, and it is definitely designed to do this. (actually, it's technically the engine slowing the car down, but it does it through the trans)

So again, why wouldn't you want the trans, which is a much heavier-duty component than 1/2 your braking system, to do something as simple as hold your car still?

Remember, some e-brakes on rear disc cars are only little mini-drum brakes inside the rear discs. They are not meant to hold the car alone.

 

[funboy6942]

How hard would it really be to design a switch that if the car is in gear disables the remote start?
Like a ground contact switch so if it is in nutural it will make a complete ground and car will start. In any gear and it will not.

If you make this I want a part of the royalties.

 

[HiTek21]

If i'm on a flat level surface i'll leave it in neutral but if i'm parked on an incline i'll put it in 1st gear.

 

[arcenite]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
But why would you want the weight of the car on just two rear brakes, a ratchet assembly and some cables, rather than heavy-duty gears, clutch and the engine?

They are designed to hold up when accelerating and decelerating the car.....so why wouldn't you want them to be the main thing that's holding the car still, when there's no momentum or inertia?

It just seems wrong to me. The pads are easy to replace and that's what they are there for, the tranny is not. While you're correct the trans is stronger, I still don't think that it holding 2000lbs+ on a hill (flat doesn't matter obviously) can be any good for it.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Again, I don't see how you think that holding the car in place is bad for a trans, considering all the other work it does. It is still more suited to the job than 1/2 of your braking system.

Oh, and read my edit above.

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: arcenite

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
But why would you want the weight of the car on just two rear brakes, a ratchet assembly and some cables, rather than heavy-duty gears, clutch and the engine?

They are designed to hold up when accelerating and decelerating the car.....so why wouldn't you want them to be the main thing that's holding the car still, when there's no momentum or inertia?

It just seems wrong to me. The pads are easy to replace and that's what they are there for, the tranny is not. While you're correct the trans is stronger, I still don't think that it holding 2000lbs+ on a hill (flat doesn't matter obviously) can be any good for it.

Along with that the only thing holding your car in place is actually the cars compression. What if you have a weak engine and the compression is lost over a period of time the cars gonna roll. Id stick with the application of both or atleast the hand brake. I read a few here that leave in gear without using the hand brake. I really wouldnt reccomend doing that at all.

The trans is NOT what is holding you in place on a Manual trans vechile. Its the engines compression that is so it is not doing anything to your trans at all. Also more food for thought is if you have a week clutch. The weight wont be supported by the engine compression because the clutch or pressure plate will not apply enough force against the flywheel and may slip causing your call to roll.

In any case the E-brake is there for both Automatic and Manual trans. Neither trans or engine was designed to hold your car from moving on flat ground or on a hill. You think because a automatic has park you dont need to use it??? The only thing keeping it in park is a tiny pin. One good wack to the car will break the pin leaving you with out park and watching your car go rolling down the hill. So really the e-brake should be used at all times no matter which trans your car is eqquiped with. And since the car is not moving causing any friction between the rotor/drum/pad you are not causing any wear whatsoever to the brakes.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: arcenite

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
But why would you want the weight of the car on just two rear brakes, a ratchet assembly and some cables, rather than heavy-duty gears, clutch and the engine?

They are designed to hold up when accelerating and decelerating the car.....so why wouldn't you want them to be the main thing that's holding the car still, when there's no momentum or inertia?

It just seems wrong to me. The pads are easy to replace and that's what they are there for, the tranny is not. While you're correct the trans is stronger, I still don't think that it holding 2000lbs+ on a hill (flat doesn't matter obviously) can be any good for it.

Along with that the only thing holding your car in place is actually the cars compression. What if you have a weak engine and the compression is lost over a period of time the cars gonna roll. Id stick with the application of both or atleast the hand brake. I read a few here that leave in gear without using the hand brake. I really wouldnt reccomend doing that at all.

You are correct, the compression is holding the car in place. And if your engine has enough compression to run (which is about 90psi), then it has enough to hold the car in place.
BUT, as always, I recommend that the e-brake be used in conjunction with leaving the car in gear.

 

[arcenite]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Again, I don't see how you think that holding the car in place is bad for a trans, considering all the other work it does. It is still more suited to the job than 1/2 of your braking system.

Oh, and read my edit above.

I am not arguing that the brakes are stronger than the transmission. What I am arguing is a few things...

1.) When setting the e-brake (park brake) on a hill and letting it set, you are thereby giving the rear brake assembly all the load. There is very little wear to the pads/shoes. Anything that may wear and eventually break in this process is much simpler and cheaper to fix than your transmission.

2.) By using only the transmission (or setting the brake afterwards), you are obviously putting the unnecessary load on the transmission. While the transmission is stronger, the gears are still supporting the load unnecessarily)

3.) (We seem to agree on) It's best to use both the trans and the e-brake

4.) (We seem to disagree on) It's best to use it in the order of : Brake, Trans

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: arcenite

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Again, I don't see how you think that holding the car in place is bad for a trans, considering all the other work it does. It is still more suited to the job than 1/2 of your braking system.

Oh, and read my edit above.

I am not arguing that the brakes are stronger than the transmission. What I am arguing is a few things...

1.) When setting the e-brake (park brake) on a hill and letting it set, you are thereby giving the rear brake assembly all the load. There is very little wear to the pads/shoes. Anything that may wear and eventually break in this process is much simpler and cheaper to fix than your transmission.
I doubt you can find a lighter load for the trans than just holding the car. The engine is really what's holding the car anyway. Holding the car still is the easiest thing that a trans takes part in.
And I doubt you'll be able to find many incidences of transmissions actually failing and letting a car move, but I guarantee you can find plenty of folks who just let the e-brake hold the car by itself and had a failure and subsequent body shop trip

2.) By using only the transmission (or setting the brake afterwards), you are obviously putting the unnecessary load on the transmission. While the transmission is stronger, the gears are still supporting the load unnecessarily)
Take the word of someone who's been in the car business for 25+ years....this is a necessary load. The car is designed to do just that

3.) (We seem to agree on) It's best to use both the trans and the e-brake
Yes we do, which is the original topic anyway. :thumbsup:
4.) (We seem to disagree on) It's best to use it in the order of : Brake, Trans

Evidently, and that's what I'm trying to show you the light on. I say, let the car rest against the trans/engine, then engage the e-brake. The car is more likely to roll if you do it your way and the e-brake fails...if there is no load on the gearing, and the e-brake fails, the car will move several inches....and then you might get the engine to turn over and let the car keep moving, because of the slight running start". That won't happen my way, unless you are on one steep-ass hill or your engine is shot.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Leaving the car in gear helps keep it from rolling. But it's no guarantee. If the clutch is slipping, if the engine compression is low, or if the hill is just too steep...down you go. That's why you should always park a manual transmission car in Reverse or First (the gears with the biggest gear ratios) AND apply the parking brake. Just doing one or the other isn't sufficient.

Cartalk

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: arcenite

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
But why would you want the weight of the car on just two rear brakes, a ratchet assembly and some cables, rather than heavy-duty gears, clutch and the engine?

They are designed to hold up when accelerating and decelerating the car.....so why wouldn't you want them to be the main thing that's holding the car still, when there's no momentum or inertia?

It just seems wrong to me. The pads are easy to replace and that's what they are there for, the tranny is not. While you're correct the trans is stronger, I still don't think that it holding 2000lbs+ on a hill (flat doesn't matter obviously) can be any good for it.

Along with that the only thing holding your car in place is actually the cars compression. What if you have a weak engine and the compression is lost over a period of time the cars gonna roll. Id stick with the application of both or atleast the hand brake. I read a few here that leave in gear without using the hand brake. I really wouldnt reccomend doing that at all.

You are correct, the compression is holding the car in place. And if your engine has enough compression to run (which is about 90psi), then it has enough to hold the car in place.
BUT, as always, I recommend that the e-brake be used in conjunction with leaving the car in gear.

Depending on the trans gearing or what gear you actually use this is not true. I have owned several cars that the e-brake was not working and no matter if it was in 1st or reverse it still rolled down hill. Unless you own a 1964 ford with 3 on the tree and some really tall gears, then that sucker aint going no where. A 6 speed trany will have gears so close together it wont hold much weight back if at all.

This really is also bad for the engine if you keep doing this all the time on a hill and dont let the E-brake take all the weight on a hill and over time may cause you to break a head gasket.

Think about it. When a car is running it has piston after piston n a row doing the compression and power stroke. And when you shut your car off it bassicly stops in a neutral place where there is no compression on one cylinder that is constant at all times. Have you ever done a tune up taking a spark plug out and it sounds like you opened a pop bottle?? No.
Here you are leaving one piston to hold 2000+ lbs of weight for a long period of time. Sooner or later something is going to give and no matter how good a compression you have it will get past the rings if left for a long enough period. Never just rely on your engine to hold your car. Its bad.

It really is e-brake first and if that should fail your engine will hopefully hold you from rolling. Take this from a guy who too has been in the automotive field for 25+ years.

Just my 2¢

 

[Pacfanweb]

Funboy,

I never said to just let one or the other hold the car. I said use both.

However, it isn't correct that only one piston or cylinder is holding the car. You have others that are in various stages of their compression strokes helping, too.
It is also true that, on a steep enough hill or with a worn-out-enough engine, the engine by itself won't hold the car. That is why you use both.

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Funboy,

I never said to just let one or the other hold the car. I said use both.

However, it isn't correct that only one piston or cylinder is holding the car. You have others that are in various stages of their compression strokes helping, too.
It is also true that, on a steep enough hill or with a worn-out-enough engine, the engine by itself won't hold the car. That is why you use both.

All 4 stroke engines only has one holding the compression back

All engines will be at different valve stages BUT only one piston will have both valves shut completly on the compression stroke. This is the only one holding your car from moving. All other pistions will have the exhaust or intake valve open slightly with no compression taking place unless the first one gives away. Thats why there is a firing order like 18436572 and not (1,4) (2,6) (3,5) because even on a 12cyl you will only have one piston at a time with all valves shut making compression being fired upon.

Well maybe a 12cyl will have a piston on the begining and one in the middle and end but your 4-8 cyl will not.

 

[Pacfanweb]

FB, whether you have only one piston with valves closed at once or not depends on 2 things: Valve timing, and # of cylinders. The more cylinders, the more you have with valves closed or open at the same time.

Also, even on a 4 cylinder, you have one at the top of the compression stroke, and one at the bottom of the compression stroke...either way, the valves on both are closed. Again, that's dependent on the valve timing. How much overlap and such.

But we're talking too much technical crap for most folks here now, I'd think. Bottom line, one cylinder is enough. It will hold for as long as you need to hold it, especially when used in conjunction with the e-brake. It really is going to take long, long time on a healthy engine to leakdown enough to let the engine turn.

 

[Vic]

LOL. This last page is hilarious. Engine internals and transmissions undergo tremendous forces during acceleration, and people who claim automotive knowledge and experience are concerned about those components merely holding the weight of the vehicle while parked?? :laugh:
What do you think those components undergo while they are launching that weight forward? What do you think that one piston undergoes when you put the pedal to the metal? At every combustion cycle, that single combusting piston and rod assembly accelerates (not holds, accelerates) the entire weight of the vehicle. Ah, you're gonna break it by parking it in gear!! Hilarious.

Oh... and valves are only open during 2 of the 4 cycles (intake and exhaust) and closed during the other 2 cycles (compression and combustion). So even in a 4 cylinder, there will always and at all times be 2 pistons with valves closed (and 3 with a 6 cyl., 4 with a 8 cyl., etc.). It is impossible for this to be otherwise. One, for mechanical reasons, and two, because (when turned off) the engine will always stop at a point of greatest resistance to turning, not a "neutral" spot with the least resistance.