Ford says only Mustang & Focus will live on in North America as it drops slow-selling sedans

[Kaido]

Halo car Coupe (Mustang)

The Mustang has been weird. A 4-banger is like, un-American, but after test-driving it, I was sold. Feels & sounds absolutely fantastic (although iirc the sound is just from some kind of speaker system?), and I would definitely take it over the non-turbo 6-cylinder.

Curious to see what they do with the hybrid version - it would be fun if they did it as a boost like they did with the Fusion Hybrid for police offers:

https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/10/ford-s-hybrid-cop-car-has-electric-boost-for-high-speed-chases/

It will go into pursuit mode when the throttle is held down for five seconds, engaging both the gas and electric motors. While not as quick as the 3.7-liter turbocharged Taurus-based Interceptor, Ford figures it'll be fast enough to earn law enforcement's "pursuit" rating.

 

[Bubbleawsome]

and I would definitely take it over the non-turbo 6-cylinder

Have to now, they only sell the i4 and v8.

I don't think the mustang will really alienate the younger generation anytime soon, they're still popular. their base price is creeping up though.

 

[Zorba]

This seems like the classic shoot yourself in the foot executive decision of "Look this product only has a margin of 8%, while that product has a margin of 15%. Let's kill the low margin product and only make the high margin product! We'll be rich!" 2 years later, when every one that liked the killed product goes to the competitor, they are loosing money like crazy because of all the lost revenue they can't cover their overhead.

I worked for an airline that was really stupid about "Premium Passengers." Yeah, first class has a great margin on it, but 90% of your revenue comes from coach, maybe you should try to keep those people coming instead of giving them the bird.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Have to now, they only sell the i4 and v8.

I don't think the mustang will really alienate the younger generation anytime soon, they're still popular. their base price is creeping up though.

I don't understand that at all. The 400HP 3.0T V6 from the MKZ would be the PERFECT engine for the Mustang.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

In the 80s and 90s, Toyota and Honda's care were SOOOO much better than Ford, that many people who consider a Toyota or a Honda will not even give a second thought to Ford. It's going to take them a long time to dig out of that hole, even if their reliability has improved a lot since then, it's hard to fix a reputation. That said, I think they still have some design issues, seems like they are using lots of components which are not designed to live much more than 150k or 10 years.

MIL's explorer, with only 160K miles ... she nurses it like it's her baby, transfer case died recently, radiator leaked and dumped coolant all over the place last fall, and before that her power steering pump had died, and before that the brakes were leaking fluid...
Wife's edge, had issues like fuel filler vents clogging up, and light in the gear selector burned out, and CEL codes for sensors after not even 100K

Subaru has a bit of a reputation for being shit quality, but, my forester at 125K has been far more reliable than both of their cars, and brakes and tires seem to last like 2-3 times as long. Yes, the head gasket job at 125k was expensive, but, for the other 10ish years I have owned it, it's been cheap to own other than needing more frequent tire rotations and having to pay to change the diff fluid.

People's anecdotes about reliability crack me up. The tone is always different when talking about their imports. All kinds of issues are glossed over as no big deal, an outlier. Sure I had to pay a ton of money to replace a blown headgasket at 125,000 miles, but besides that it was totally reliable. I agree your Subie sounds more reliable then your family's Fords overall. But I would have been furious if I had to replace a headgasket in my Focus, and it lasted to 240K miles before I junked it due to rust.

 

[PeterScott]

People's anecdotes about reliability crack me up. The tone is always different when talking about their imports. All kinds of issues are glossed over as no big deal, an outlier. Sure I had to pay a ton of money to replace a blown headgasket at 125,000 miles, but besides that it was totally reliable. I agree your Subie sounds more reliable then your family's Fords overall. But I would have been furious if I had to replace a headgasket in my Focus, and it lasted to 240K miles before I junked it due to rust.

So you add your own anecdote.

If skip anecdotes, and look at reliability surveys, I believe Subaru scores higher than Ford.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

So you add your own anecdote.

If skip anecdotes, and look at reliability surveys, I believe Subaru scores higher than Ford.

Way to miss the point. Let me put it another way: People with imports gloss over major and minor reliability issues as "no big deal" because of the general perception that they are more reliable. Nowhere did I imply Ford, or domestics in general, are more reliable than Subaru.

 

[Bubbleawsome]

I don't understand that at all. The 400HP 3.0T V6 from the MKZ would be the PERFECT engine for the Mustang.

My bet is they'll wait to see how fuel economy restrictions go in the next few years before committing to that. The NA 5.0 is such a huge part of the mustang now that I doubt they'll get rid of it, but I'm not sure how much more power they can wring out of it. The 2018 is rumored to make over 500hp at the crank. With a rated 460hp/420lb-ft v8 and a 310hp/350lb-ft i4 there's not tons of room for a 400/400 v6. Especially with the i4 power pack making 335/390, and that power pack could be standard in a year or two when Chevy ups the Camaro i4 output.

 

[jtvang125]

I think other car manufacturers are experiencing this shift in the market too. The Toyota RAV4 outsold every one of their other models. But you can bet they're going to hold out as long as they can with their sedans. The Accord and Camry aren't going anywhere.

 

[PeterScott]

Way to miss the point. Let me put it another way: People with imports gloss over major and minor reliability issues as "no big deal" because of the general perception that they are more reliable. Nowhere did I imply Ford, or domestics in general, are more reliable than Subaru.

Not at all. You are complaining about the anti-domestic bias you perceive, in his anecdote. Already that smacks of your own bias, but then you followup with your own anecdote about how your own anecdote about how your domestic went so many more miles without needing the repair he did.

All I see is one biased guy complaining about the bias he sees in other peoples anecdotes, posting his own to counter them.

It would be best if all just avoided the anecdotes, because they are largely meaningless.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Not at all. You are complaining about the anti-domestic bias you perceive, in his anecdote. Already that smacks of your own bias, but then you followup with your own anecdote about how your own anecdote about how your domestic went so many more miles without needing the repair he did.

Pointing out flaws in people's perceptions does not inherently make an observation bias. If that's what you read into my post, maybe it's you projecting your own bias?

It would be best if all just avoided the anecdotes, because they are largely meaningless.

Agreed.

 

[BurnItDwn]

People's anecdotes about reliability crack me up. The tone is always different when talking about their imports. All kinds of issues are glossed over as no big deal, an outlier. Sure I had to pay a ton of money to replace a blown headgasket at 125,000 miles, but besides that it was totally reliable. I agree your Subie sounds more reliable then your family's Fords overall. But I would have been furious if I had to replace a headgasket in my Focus, and it lasted to 240K miles before I junked it due to rust.

I'm only comparing it to the cars we have, and cars I have owned in the past.

The head gaskets were upsetting, but, in the grand scheme of things, it's still the least expensive to own car I have ever had by a longshot

91 Ford escort, transmission problems after 80K miles, and after warrantied rebuild, and after 2nd rebuild, AC stopped working at 90K, alternator died at 60K ... (was my mom's old car she sold me for 'trade in value' when she bought here Olds)
94 Pontiac grand am, AC stopped working at 100K, electric windows both driver and front passenger stopped working, or worked intermittently, engine & transmission were generally ok, but, it leaked oil pretty bad and just had terrible fit and finish. (was my aunts old car she sold me for 'trade in value' when she bought her minivan)
99 Chrysler 300m, nice car, when it worked, but, transmission issues around 60k, and lots of electrical issues started around 90k. After battery, alternator, starter were changed, mechanic finally redid all the cables and finally the voltage drop stopped. Also, the alloy wheels were garbage, barely lasted 5 years before they corroded so bad they leaked. Car got like 16MPG and interior surfaces cracked from the sun even though the car wasn't that old.

Maybe I've had shit cars or shit luck. But, the subaru is the only car I've ever owned that has never left me stranded by the side of the road. I did get it towed one time, but, it was drivable at the time, just I was paranoid about it.

 

[zinfamous]

Yeah heard that this morning. Sad. I was hoping that a Focus ST/RS would be my next car ~10 years from now.

crossover/SUVs...such garbage. Can't stand them anywhere.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I'm only comparing it to the cars we have, and cars I have owned in the past.

The head gaskets were upsetting, but, in the grand scheme of things, it's still the least expensive to own car I have ever had by a longshot

91 Ford escort, transmission problems after 80K miles, and after warrantied rebuild, and after 2nd rebuild, AC stopped working at 90K, alternator died at 60K ... (was my mom's old car she sold me for 'trade in value' when she bought here Olds)
94 Pontiac grand am, AC stopped working at 100K, electric windows both driver and front passenger stopped working, or worked intermittently, engine & transmission were generally ok, but, it leaked oil pretty bad and just had terrible fit and finish. (was my aunts old car she sold me for 'trade in value' when she bought her minivan)
99 Chrysler 300m, nice car, when it worked, but, transmission issues around 60k, and lots of electrical issues started around 90k. After battery, alternator, starter were changed, mechanic finally redid all the cables and finally the voltage drop stopped. Also, the alloy wheels were garbage, barely lasted 5 years before they corroded so bad they leaked. Car got like 16MPG and interior surfaces cracked from the sun even though the car wasn't that old.

Maybe I've had shit cars or shit luck. But, the subaru is the only car I've ever owned that has never left me stranded by the side of the road. I did get it towed one time, but, it was drivable at the time, just I was paranoid about it.

You had shit cars. And if you'd bought a '98 Mazda and an '02 Honda, you'd have had similar issues. (Bad transmissions, etc.)

Cars today, domestic or otherwise, are waaaaay superior to what they were 20+ years ago. Not as easy or cheap to fix, and everything's automatic, which pisses off the "car guy" contingent, but 90%+ of them last 200k+ miles with basic maintenance.

Except for Chryslers - those are still mostly crap.

But people are crazy-brand-loyal with cars.

 

[zinfamous]

Hybrid is fine - there are enough hybrid (and battery-powered) supercars to show that you don't have to sacrifice performance. FWD won't happen for the Mustang, there's no real reason to. But certainly things will change - if a V8 is maintained it will become a much smaller, more efficient, likely super- or turbo-charged version. CAFE is real, and the numbers are unattainable without some progress (which I guess is the point).

I wouldn't be surprised if F1 > Supercar technology like regenerative breaking, among others, are standard features in midrange cars within the next 10 years. It's amazing how much tech becomes standard where, 10 years before, they were high performance and prohibitively expensive.

But that shouldn't be surprising--it's like that in every industry and economy of scales factor in everywhere.

 

[zinfamous]

I sort of wonder if its not a sort of run down in anticipation of self driving cars. That's their long game anyways.

Well, I think their commitment to self-driving fleet cars is stronger than any other US manufacture, and unless they have changed it, there time-table was something like a ~2024 roll-out. I do believe that is a large part of the decision here, where they see the standard car-based transportation model to be dependent on fleet/subscription services for your daily work, general needs, and actual ownership will move to more specialized needs, like larger cars you take on vacation or for runs to Giant Box Turd Home Store version 236-B.

 

[BurnItDwn]

You had shit cars. And if you'd bought a '98 Mazda and an '02 Honda, you'd have had similar issues. (Bad transmissions, etc.)

Cars today, domestic or otherwise, are waaaaay superior to what they were 20+ years ago. Not as easy or cheap to fix, and everything's automatic, which pisses off the "car guy" contingent, but 90%+ of them last 200k+ miles with basic maintenance.

Except for Chryslers - those are still mostly crap.

But people are crazy-brand-loyal with cars.

Well, we will see what Ford's 2020 Mustang Hybrid looks like and how much it costs. By then my subaru will be around 13 years old, and I'm bored of it the 9 months of the year we don't get snow.
(Though I will be cross shopping stuff like used GS450H from Toyota or used hybrid Q50 from Nissan.)

 

[zinfamous]

Not going miss any of them. Mustangs and F150's sounds about right to me.

Does anyone really care if the Fusion and Focus go away? Plenty of other, most likely better, options.

The Fusion is a solid sedan that doesn't really lose any quality to Camry or Accord. It's been a legit option against those stalwarts for several years now (I don't know about resale, but it's probably always going to be impossible to beat Toyota or Honda).

The Focus and Fiesta hatches are very popular, very quick sporty little cars (ST+ versions) and Ford is the only manufacturer that can proudly wave the US flag when competing against VW, Fiat, et al in that decades-long, extremely popular class of car. (I am purposefully ignoring the Chevy "Cruz")

 

[quikah]

Only reason they do it is because they got that 25% tariff on light trucks to jack up their profits. Wonder how long that will last with Trump throwing all these tariffs around.

 

[Pneumothorax]

Good going Ford, Crude oil is probably going to go over $100 again soon and these stupid American manufacturers are going to be caught flat footed again with no product. Even if they continue building them overseas, it'll take about a half model generation to get them Fed certified. Plus, you're going to have start from scratch again building up a line.

 

[PeterScott]

Good going Ford, Crude oil is probably going to go over $100 again soon and these stupid American manufacturers are going to be caught flat footed again with no product. Even if they continue building them overseas, it'll take about a half model generation to get them Fed certified. Plus, you're going to have start from scratch again building up a line.

This isn't like the past where domestics got caught with big body on frame SUVs. The Ford lineup is full of car based crossovers, that only get 2-3 MPG less than the cars they are based on. MPG impact of doing this is negligible.

There are also a lot more domestic oil sources today blunting any potential price jumps.

We might see $80 in the next 5 years, but there pretty much no credible predictions of $100.

I am not a fan of SUVs, but this seems like a pretty safe bet by Ford.

 

[Brainonska511]

I can see that Ford will not be on the list of manufacturers I look to the day it comes to replace my '12 Fusion (even though it won't be anytime soon). I don't want to drive a crossover, truck, or SUV. I'd rather have a sedan or hatchback.

 

[ElFenix]

I wouldn't be surprised if F1 > Supercar technology like regenerative breaking, among others, are standard features in midrange cars within the next 10 years. It's amazing how much tech becomes standard where, 10 years before, they were high performance and prohibitively expensive.

But that shouldn't be surprising--it's like that in every industry and economy of scales factor in everywhere.

i've never once seen an F1 car fix itself.

 

[mindless1]

Don't believe this fake news. They'd scale back one sedan at a time. Maybe some are misinterpreting a more logical approach which would be to just lengthen the product lifecycle, not reinvest in a new design as often.

That does makes sense as the ICE vehicle is fairly mature by now besides adding electronic gadgetry that helps do things like drive and park itself.

 

[Brainonska511]

Don't believe this fake news. They'd scale back one sedan at a time.

Why is this fake news? It's in their quarterly statement:

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/2018/04/25/1q18-financials.pdf

Building a winning portfolio and focusing on products and markets where Ford can win. For example, by 2020, almost 90 percent of the Ford portfolio in North America will be trucks, utilities, and commercial vehicles. Given declining consumer demand and product profitability, the company will not invest in next generations of traditional Ford sedans for North America. Over the next few years, the Ford car portfolio in North America will transition to two vehicles - the best-selling Mustang and the all-new Focus Active crossover coming out next year."