Former Russian Spy and his daughter poisoned in Salisburygrad

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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,496
13,078
136
AP reporting that May says Russia guilty of attempted murder. Expelling 23 Russian "diplomats" (probably spies). All high level contacts with Russia suspended, visit by Russian FM Lavrov canceled. No UK gov presence at World Cup.
I hope the rest of the EU boycots as well.
 

skull

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2000
2,209
327
126

I can't say I didn't think it was either. I didn't even buy into the whole trump russia thing until he fired comey and its not because I liked trump at the time. I'd say thats a big difference between me/obama and trump. I see obama admitting he was wrong but we all know trump can't.
 
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uallas5

Golden Member
Jun 3, 2005
1,447
1,585
136
43 Diplomats might not seem like much but that's actually over 40% of Russia's diplomatic staff according to BBC Radio.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
Im not saying Obama wasnt wrong, but you do realize that those comments were made in 2012, not 2018, or to clarify the point even further, not even 2014?
I think it's interesting that Obama thought Romney should have said "al-Qaeda." I think the qualifying word "geopolitical" was specifically meant to exclude fanatical terrorist organizations.

Also, other semantics about the terminology used:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-1980s-foreign-policy/?utm_term=.1a09a37d8437
(video shows what Romney actually said and gives some context)
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
What do you think the oligarchs reaction to this will be? If this keeps up, people like Roman Abramovich could lose their ownership of their possessions in the UK like Chelsea F.C., and Abramovich is not going to be a happy camper if that happens.
His reaction will be whatever Putin tells him his reaction will be. Putin is not worried about the known oligarchs in business, he's worried about the secret oligarchs in his security services.
 
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Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
43 Diplomats might not seem like much but that's actually over 40% of Russia's diplomatic staff according to BBC Radio.

There was a time when the sun never set on the British empire. It was literally true. And they pronounced it with arrogance. Now with a nerve agent attack in their country, they are reduced to expelling diplomats.

What goes up must come down. There is a lesson of humility for all of us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
In another development, the leaders of US, UK, Germany and France have issued a joint statement condemning Russia. Quote: They condemned the "first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War", calling it an assault on UK sovereignty.

Impressive.

Imagine if this was done by the govt of Somalia or Nigeria. It feels like we are no different from a school bully, beating up the weak and defenseless. Except that a school bully does not spend trillions and trillions on his supposed might.
 

RayCathode

Member
Oct 10, 2001
194
18
76
Imagine if this was done by the govt of Somalia or Nigeria. It feels like we are no different from a school bully, beating up the weak and defenseless. Except that a school bully does not spend trillions and trillions on his supposed might.

What would you have NATO do? Invade Russia? Nigeria and Somalia are wimpy kids slapping a bully (to use your metaphor). A pretty big guy who knows how to defend himself doing it to big guy who really doesn't want to get into a huge fight at the moment is likely to just get an insult. Now if the pretty big guy keeps doing it over and over...

When you have nuclear weapons you can get away with more stuff. Why do you think Iran and North Korea want them? Why pick on just the West though? Russia and China aren't above bullying their weaker neighbors with their might. We still live in a might makes right world and governments would be stupid to pretend that it still isn't.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,835
9,070
136
Im not saying Obama wasnt wrong, but you do realize that those comments were made in 2012, not 2018, or to clarify the point even further, not even 2014?

Also, at the time Medvedev was President--Putin hadn't gotten around that pesky term limits issue yet. Even though Putin was pulling his strings, Medvedev and his Kremlin had struck a much more diplomatic tone with Obama initially (hence the whole "reset" effort.) All that changed when Russia put missiles in Kaliningrad and Obama responded by talking up missile defense for the EU Baltic states.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,554
7,611
136
NATO and its allies need a firm response. It may have been used in a targeted assassination, but nerve gas is a WMD. We need to act in a way that harms Russia's interests. So their calculation next time takes the cost into account. AND we need to work to isolate them and their agents in an effort to limit their reach. Such a brazen, sloppy assassination with a WMD on our soil is an act of war. If Russia wants to act like a terrorist state, then it must be treated as one. For our own protection from their hostile and harmful action(s).

It's time Europe moved in an emergency fashion to rid itself of Russian dependence. Because there is every sign that the cold war has returned.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,001
10,167
136
There was a time when the sun never set on the British empire. It was literally true. And they pronounced it with arrogance. Now with a nerve agent attack in their country, they are reduced to expelling diplomats.

What goes up must come down. There is a lesson of humility for all of us.

If the attack had happened on American soil, what do you think (assuming that you didn't have Trump in the WH) America would have done (or should do) about it?

Bear in mind that a new cold war is exactly what Putin wants: A "foreign threat" that he can posture against to show off to his people and distract them from domestic affairs.

The British empire was pretty much dead and gone by the end of WW1. Not a single British politician is even alive to notice its absence and lament its demise, and any still genuinely harbouring ideas of its continued existence aren't politicians but utter nut-jobs.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,640
34,461
136
NATO and its allies need a firm response. It may have been used in a targeted assassination, but nerve gas is a WMD. We need to act in a way that harms Russia's interests. So their calculation next time takes the cost into account. AND we need to work to isolate them and their agents in an effort to limit their reach. Such a brazen, sloppy assassination with a WMD on our soil is an act of war. If Russia wants to act like a terrorist state, then it must be treated as one. For our own protection from their hostile and harmful action(s).

It's time Europe moved in an emergency fashion to rid itself of Russian dependence. Because there is every sign that the cold war has returned.

Best way to hurt the people running Russia without hurting the Russian people at large is to go after their money. Putin and his regime's cronies have stashed enormous sums across Europe and the US. Start taking it. Seize bank accounts, property, investments, and anything else that you can trace back. Also drastically scale back their allowed diplomatic presence across the board which is mostly just a front for intelligence activities at this point.

Long term Europe needs to invest more heavily in getting off Russian natural gas starting with Germany who is an enormous customer but who also has the resources to switch to alternatives.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
NATO and its allies need a firm response. It may have been used in a targeted assassination, but nerve gas is a WMD. We need to act in a way that harms Russia's interests. So their calculation next time takes the cost into account. AND we need to work to isolate them and their agents in an effort to limit their reach. Such a brazen, sloppy assassination with a WMD on our soil is an act of war. If Russia wants to act like a terrorist state, then it must be treated as one. For our own protection from their hostile and harmful action(s).

It's time Europe moved in an emergency fashion to rid itself of Russian dependence. Because there is every sign that the cold war has returned.
Did they say this was a gas? I only heard "nerve agent."
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
In another development, the leaders of US, UK, Germany and France have issued a joint statement condemning Russia. Quote: They condemned the "first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War", calling it an assault on UK sovereignty.

Impressive.

Imagine if this was done by the govt of Somalia or Nigeria. It feels like we are no different from a school bully, beating up the weak and defenseless. Except that a school bully does not spend trillions and trillions on his supposed might.

Its only impressive if they do something other than condemn Russia. Invasion is not what to do, but anything they do to hurt Russia will likely hurt themselves as well. I don't know the political climate there, but, I did not see much of a reaction when Russia shot down an airliner. We shall see what happens.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
Best way to hurt the people running Russia without hurting the Russian people at large is to go after their money. Putin and his regime's cronies have stashed enormous sums across Europe and the US. Start taking it. Seize bank accounts, property, investments, and anything else that you can trace back. Also drastically scale back their allowed diplomatic presence across the board which is mostly just a front for intelligence activities at this point.

Long term Europe needs to invest more heavily in getting off Russian natural gas starting with Germany who is an enormous customer but who also has the resources to switch to alternatives.

So true. A few years ago, and only for a very brief minute, I actually believed we should focus on improving our relations with Russia. But that was only for a brief minute, and their actions have consistently shown that Russia cannot be trusted. The reason I'm quoting you is because what you mentioned is absolutely the best thing we can possibly do. Russia corrupts nations from within. They move into a local area, get people on their side by looking like they're doing businesses and communities a favor, and pay off politicians and police enforcement through bribes, extortion, and murder. Spain has actually started really combating this, and to great effect, but the money always leads back to the ones in power.

If you want to cripple the Russian bear, go after its assets. Go after it one by one. Only then will the awesome Russian people realize that its leaders are worthless and corrupt.

The great irony of your last statement is that both France and Germany are currently powered primarily by nuclear energy, but are shutting them down in favor of natural gas. They are both shutting down their nuclear power reactors and switched to Russian natural gas. I wonder how many are beginning wonder if this is the correct long term decision.

Edit - Corrected for accuracy.
 
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Stokely

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2017
1,771
2,319
136
NPR had a story on the immense amount of Russian dollars flowing through London. In the guest's view, expelling these diplomats and making a speech was about the bare minimum May could do. If you really want to go after Russia, go after the $ as someone said. The guest said that there are literally dozens of Russian billionaires with estates around London. Because of Brexit, it puts May in a shaky position to do anything that might injure the economy though.

Has Trump said word one about this? For all his childish fiery "I'll kick your ass" responses to anything (recall he would have run into the Parkland school unarmed) it is pretty telling his wimpy response on this one.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
NATO and its allies need a firm response. It may have been used in a targeted assassination, but nerve gas is a WMD. We need to act in a way that harms Russia's interests. So their calculation next time takes the cost into account. AND we need to work to isolate them and their agents in an effort to limit their reach. Such a brazen, sloppy assassination with a WMD on our soil is an act of war. If Russia wants to act like a terrorist state, then it must be treated as one. For our own protection from their hostile and harmful action(s).

It's time Europe moved in an emergency fashion to rid itself of Russian dependence. Because there is every sign that the cold war has returned.

You are generally correct but if possible can we tone down the self righteousness? West has been assassinating people in other countries since ages ago as well. So either everyone is a terrorist or no one is. Agreed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,802
29,553
146
You are generally correct but if possible can we tone down the self righteousness? West has been assassinating people in other countries since ages ago as well. So either everyone is a terrorist or no one is. Agreed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


..with WMDs?
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
..with WMDs?

Depends on how WMD is defined. It is a subjective, vague term used primarily for political purposes. It is not like water = H2O.

I think there is a consensus though that West used WMD in Japan. And napalm / agent orange use in Vietnam...

It is actually quite understandable that the Russian regime would do these things. The only thing that has held back powers (going back all the way to when we lived in tribes) is the fear of consequences. Not a sense of any right, wrong and all those noble things. Putin knows the west is now impotent and in decline, so yes, why not.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,496
13,078
136
You are generally correct but if possible can we tone down the self righteousness? West has been assassinating people in other countries since ages ago as well. So either everyone is a terrorist or no one is. Agreed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Assange & wikileaks associates? Snowden?
 
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