Huh? Alonso won that race, yes?
There was no battle for the win with Red Bull.
Webber would not have been taking a victory from Vettel.
Webber was leading at Sepang...Vettel ignored team orders to take a win away from Webber. A win is huge.
Are you paying attention or not?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14145893
This was in Silverstone, not in Sepang.
Huh? Alonso won that race, yes?
There was no battle for the win with Red Bull.
Webber would not have been taking a victory from Vettel.
Webber was leading at Sepang...Vettel ignored team orders to take a win away from Webber. A win is huge.
The Constructor's Championship is really all that matters to the team. The team doesn't care who is first in a 1-2 finish, because the team gets the same number of points. The orders make perfect sense. A battle between the two drivers risks all the team points at once.
Vettel passing Webber when ordered not to also risks all the team points.
Vettel won Monza years ago in a Toro Rosso/Minardi.
And the fact is that if you put Webber, or Massa, or Button (all of which I'd say are on a comparable level) much more often than not they'll be slower than their teammates. Vettel won because he's a tier one driver (along with Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen) with the fastest car. If it was Alonso or Raikonnen in his position they would've won too, but to say that Vettel is not on the same level as them is BS. It's both him and the car.
Yeah, except that article failed to mention one thing: while Webber was pushing, Vettel's KERS had failed at one point. It's akin to the exact same thing, except of course that since Vettel is faster he maintained the lead.
And in that race, too, the strategy was to do a Multi 21 in case it was needed.
Stop defending Webber. He wants to win at all costs also, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you can't come here complaining about how what Vettel did was "unsportsmanlike" when Webber has done the same in the past. Webber has also NEVER helped Vettel out in the Championship; you can use the most recent examples of Abu Dhabi and Brazil 2012 to see that. Webber is simply slower and is Vettel's bitch which is why he's mad.
Not that I agree one way or another on this. But your using very odd and hypocritical logic based solely on the particular position. What if it was a battle for 3rd and 4th, one being a podium finish and one not being?
Either Team orders are Team orders and as the supplier of a several million dollar paycheck and several million dollar car is the one to rule them all and Vettel screwed up by ignoring them. Or Team Orders are bad and all racers should ignore them for their own personal gain because they have as much to lose in it as the teams.
Huh? Alonso won that race, yes?
There was no battle for the win with Red Bull.
Webber would not have been taking a victory from Vettel.
Webber was leading at Sepang...Vettel ignored team orders to take a win away from Webber. A win is huge.
I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Yes, Vettel is one of the best drivers on the field. Him Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton are the best on the grid at the moment.
What I'm trying to say is, I don't agree with you saying Red Bull is nothing without Vettel and that Any Good enough driver would win multiple Titles in a Red Bull. If there was a seat open at red bull, trust me a top driver will take that seat and would likely have won a few titles too.
Button already proved he can win a title when given the car, so I believe he would win a few more if he was in a red bull. Thats what I'm trying to say. I agree with you when you say vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are on the same level. What I don't agree with is you saying Red bull are nothing without vettel. Do you really think Vettel is worth more to Red Bull than Adrian Newey? They would toss vettel out in a second if it were between those 2.
Doesn't matter. That's not the point. The whole reason people are pretending to be angry at Vettel is because he ignored the stupid team orders. This sets precedent for the fact that Webber has done it before. You can also use Abu Dhabi and Brazil GP in 2012 as examples that Webber has never helped Vettel out, so even if they're enemies from now on that wouldn't change anything anyway.
I thought it was already well established that Webber and Vettel don't get along?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34788318&postcount=101
What miffed me most about this incident, was that Webber was complaining about it.
Now I can understand that Horner is upset by the result, but Webber is not the one to complain about the team result. I think he just got comfortable with a gifted win, and then had it taken from him, and threw a tantrum.
As a racing drivers, that's a bit of a low moment.
This sudden change to "team orders are to be followed" right the moment that he loses out on his team mate not sticking to them to the letter, it's a flaw in character.
On the other hand it could be, that Webber got an extra stern talking to before the race, with regard to his previous lack of respect of team orders. Then I'd be extra-miffed, if the other driver suddenly ignored them. But we'll see how the team deals with this luxury issue.
I've already said that Rosberg should have been allowed to pass Hamilton for the podium spot, so what are you talking about?
But the win is still a much bigger deal.
I've also already explained that I don't mind team orders when they make sense.
I believe I posted about Rosberg and Hamilton before mentioning Vettel and Webber.
[...]
To win you need the fastest driver, and the fastest car (taking also into account things like reliability).
I think it depends on what Webber knew or was told. If he was told Vettel would hold position, then he has a right to be mad, but at Vettel, not the team.
At any rate, both drivers now know for sure that the other doesn't give a damn about team orders, and it's every man for himself.
they had a plan, agreed to before each race: if they're 1-2 after the last pit stops, they hold position. vettel shoved that agreement up webber's ass.
at the same time, he announced to the world that red bull was his team and he was in charge. horner confirmed that with the least effective leadership i have ever witnessed:
"this is silly, seb. come on..."
Q: "why didn't you order him back?"
A: "do you think he would have listened?"
incredibly pathetic. horner is completely outranked by vettel. now that the team is built his job is done - he's just along for the ride.
they had a plan, agreed to before each race: if they're 1-2 after the last pit stops, they hold position. vettel shoved that agreement up webber's ass.
You've said this multiple times, but it looks like something you just made up. No one is reporting this was ever the case.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/...-vettelwebber-clash-and-mercedes-team-orders/
You've said this multiple times, but it looks like something you just made up. No one is reporting this was ever the case.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/...-vettelwebber-clash-and-mercedes-team-orders/
Webber revealed it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQYlpup_Rc
Listen what he says at 0:35.
There always is a race plan...
Out of all the parties involved, Webber is by far the least believable in this. If he is the only one saying it, it's probably a lie. The circumstances that unfolded during the race all point to no pre-race agreement. It doesn't even make sense for such an agreement to be made before the race. Once the last pit stop took place, it's obvious the team told Vettel to stay in place, which he didn't. If a pre-race agreement was in place, why would they have to tell him that during the race? He would have already known to stay put.
no, actually it refers to a setting for the engine, not car 2 ahead of car1 .