France waves discreet goodbye to 75 percent super-tax

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
When will populist socialist ever learn. You can't eat the goose that lays the golden egg and expect not to be hungry and poor the next day. What is even more hilarious is how utterly horrible this police was at addressing the reason why it was enacted, i.e. to attempt to cover France's budgetary deficit woes which it did absolutely nothing to address when you consider the diminishing returns after the first year and the massive budget deficit they have going on in France. Worse of all it put them in a bad position relative to other European nations when it comes to attracting investors and allowing French businesses to attract top tier talent to the private sector.


(Reuters) - When President Francois Hollande unveiled a "super-tax" on the rich in 2012, some feared an exodus of business, sporting and artistic talent. One adviser warned it was a Socialist step too far that would turn France into "Cuba without sun".

Two years on, with the tax due to expire at the end of this month, the mass emigration has not happened. But the damage to France's appeal as a home for top earners has been great, and the pickings from the levy paltry.

"The reform clearly damaged France's reputation and competitiveness," said Jorg Stegemann, head of Kennedy Executive, an executive search firm based in France and Germany.

"It clearly has become harder to attract international senior managers to come to France than it was," he added.

Hollande first floated the 75-percent super-tax on earnings over 1 million euros ($1.2 million) a year in his 2012 campaign to oust his conservative rival Nicolas Sarkozy. It fired up left-wing voters and helped him unseat the incumbent.

Yet ever since, it has been a thorn in his side, helping little in France's effort to bring its public deficit within European Union limits and mixing the message just as Hollande sought to promote a more pro-business image. The adviser who made the "Cuba" gag was Emmanuel Macron, the ex-banker who is now his economy minister.

The Finance Ministry estimates the proceeds from the tax amounted to 260 million euros in its first year and 160 million in the second. That's broadly in line with expectations, but tiny compared with a budget deficit which had reached 84.7 billion euros by the end of October.

SOCCER STRIKE THREAT

A first version of the tax payable by the earners themselves was thrown out by the Constitutional Court as punitive. A final version obliged companies to pay the levy instead.

French soccer clubs briefly threatened to go on strike, and actor Gerard Depardieu took up Russian residency in a one-man protest against the French tax burden, among the highest in the world. Others were making more discreet arrangements.

"A few went abroad -- to Luxembourg, the UK," said tax lawyer Jean-Philippe Delsol, author on a book on tax exiles called "Why I Am Going To Leave France".

"But in most cases, it was discussed with their company and agreed to limit salaries during the two years and come to an arrangement afterwards," he told Reuters by telephone.

Hollande and his government have since sought to relieve business of around 40 billion euros of taxes and other charges, as unemployment at over 10 percent drives home the urgent need to attract investment to the sickly French economy.

It was no accident that Prime Minister Manuel Valls -- alongside Macron the main reformer in Hollande's cabinet -- chose a visit to London in October to confirm that the super tax would not be renewed: his British counterpart David Cameron famously offered to "roll out the red carpet" to French tax exiles.

But Delsol said the saga had made his clients more nervous about investing their time and money in France and had only added to mistrust of a complex tax system which successive governments have failed to reform.

"People have lost confidence," he said. "That is not something you can restore overnight."

($1 = 0.8216 euros)

(Additional reporting by Jean-Baptiste Vey; Editing by Ruth Pitchford)


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/23/us-france-supertax-idUSKBN0K11CC20141223
 
Last edited:
Dec 11, 2014
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Rich people, who bring jobs and make things that other people want/need, don't want to move to a country that steals 75% of their earnings?

And if said rich people leave, tax revenues go south and deficits go higher?

Who would've thought?
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
I think the real story is how most of them decided to simply game the system by deferring compensation until after this retarded tax expired on its own.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
126
How do nations elect "leaders" who by all appearances have little to no common sense? Do they not listen to their advisers or do they surround themselves with like-minded yes men dummies or just what is it? I sometimes think that on some levels humans have hit the wall on their capacity for logical thought. We have a tendency to keep revisiting methodologies that we've proven don't work and we do it over and over.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,656
5,346
136
I thought it was expected that this was going to fail. I'm surprised that they actually generated some extra revenue out of it.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
How do nations elect "leaders" who by all appearances have little to no common sense?

It fired up left-wing voters and helped him unseat the incumbent.
Answered in the article. Appeal to an envy-driven voter base of economic nitwits who worship at the altar of big government, whose #1 motivation is "getting even with some rich guy for daring to be successful" and for whom fiscal sanity isnt even a recognized concept.
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
Rich people, who bring jobs and make things that other people want/need, don't want to move to a country that steals 75% of their earnings?

And if said rich people leave, tax revenues go south and deficits go higher?

Who would've thought?

Rich people don't "bring jobs" or "make things," it's the workers who make things

No one is "stealing" anything

A 75% top bracket doesn't mean taking 75% of earnings

If said rich people leave, they're traitorous fucks and don't belong in our society

Answered in the article. Appeal to an envy-driven voter base of economic nitwits who worship at the altar of big government, whose #1 motivation is "getting even with some rich guy for daring to be successful" and for whom fiscal sanity isnt even a recognized concept.

Yes, let's all project ridiculous pseudo-psychological explanations for things and imagine that the practical and moral arguments against your position must just not actually exist
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Sometimes I wonder how we ever survived on tax rates from the 50's.

No one, I mean no one paid the top marginal tax rate in the 50's. Nevermind that options to legally shelter wealth back in the 50's were significantly more abundant and looser such that, again, no one paid the top marginal tax rate. Which is also one of the reasons why Kennedy lowered the rate when he got into office in the 60's.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Rich people don't "bring jobs" or "make things," it's the workers who make things

No one is "stealing" anything

A 75% top bracket doesn't mean taking 75% of earnings

If said rich people leave, they're traitorous fucks and don't belong in our society



Yes, let's all project ridiculous pseudo-psychological explanations for things and imagine that the practical and moral arguments against your position must just not actually exist

Your entire argument is just garbage and you are demonstrating your stupidity for everyone to read. Ignoring or worse actively punishing and hampering the vital necessity of profit taking by large investors (i.e. wealthy people) so that they can be incentivized to reap profits and thus reinvest in a economy is about as stupid as it gets. Its the same stupidity you see in such "thriving" and "robust" economies like Venezuela and Cuba.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
I think the real question is: what was the motivation to do this at all?

It was the stupid EU budget rules that was forcing cuts and tax increases onto France. The voters merely said "bullshit, we're not paying this." So they decided the people to pay it would be the ones who have the least votes and most money.

Perhaps it's some measure of triumph that they choose this austerity policy and not one that would have been more effective of extracting revenue and damaging growth from the struggling economy and bought them some time with Brussels.

France is actually doing well relatively to Europe. Fortunately the EU (at least the ECB) is coming to terms with their disastrous economic policies, and may start creating some wiggle room, flexibility and maybe some growth one day.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
It already has worked here. Look up tax rate during the 50s and 60s.

LOL, you actually believe people paid that rate. Liberals are every bit as gullible as conservatives, you'll believe anything your side tells you.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
The US is different. That will totally work here.

Even getting them to pay 20% tax would be a step in the right direction.
How about this. Everybody across the board pays a flat 20% tax on all income streams. The people who would become poor from this policy would still pay the 20% tax, but they would get free shit in return such as food stamps and vouchers to offset the cost. No more tax loop holes, no more 10% taxes for Mitt Romney.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Even getting them to pay 20% tax would be a step in the right direction.
How about this. Everybody across the board pays a flat 20% tax on all income streams. The people who would become poor from this policy would still pay the 20% tax, but they would get free shit in return such as food stamps and vouchers to offset the cost. No more tax loop holes, no more 10% taxes for Mitt Romney.

20% wouldn't be nearly enough to equal current tax receipts.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Rich people don't "bring jobs" or "make things," it's the workers who make things

No one is "stealing" anything

A 75% top bracket doesn't mean taking 75% of earnings

If said rich people leave, they're traitorous fucks and don't belong in our society



Yes, let's all project ridiculous pseudo-psychological explanations for things and imagine that the practical and moral arguments against your position must just not actually exist

Workers are the ones who bring the jobs? Sorry to burst your bubble, but without the company a worker wouldn't know what to make, how to make it, wouldn't have the supplies or tools needed and wouldn't have a place to make the product. Do you really not understand how a company works? How the direction a company takes means everything as far as their success goes? Take Apple for instance. They fired Steve Jobs and the company went in the shithole. They brought him back and Steve came up with the iMac, iPod, iPhone, etc, etc. Without Steve Jobs they still had the workers but without the direction you don't have a product to sell and have to lay off the workers.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
20% wouldn't be nearly enough to equal current tax receipts.

That's what the ultra rich want you to think. They point to the tax rate on job income and say that's the tax rate rich people pay. This is incorrect. Rich people don't pay regular income tax. They pay capital gains tax. Short term capital gains tax is the same as regular income tax, which is a good thing, but the long term capital gains are half that. If you're a Rockefeller, your fortune exists as long term investments.

At the very least, we should simplify the tax policy. If there are 1000 pages of tax code about sending your kids to grade school, which people are most likely to have that information? Romney probably knows the tax code very well. Other super rich people would be able to recite it as easily as nerds cite Monty Python. The people who don't know the tax code are people like us. The tax code needs to be simplified so it fits on a single sheet of paper. You earned X dollars, you pay Y taxes. Benefits would be the same. You made X dollars, you qualify for Y benefits.

20% might be too low for this to work. Let's bump that up to 25%.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
That's what the ultra rich want you to think. They point to the tax rate on job income and say that's the tax rate rich people pay. This is incorrect. Rich people don't pay regular income tax. They pay capital gains tax. Short term capital gains tax is the same as regular income tax, which is a good thing, but the long term capital gains are half that. If you're a Rockefeller, your fortune exists as long term investments.

At the very least, we should simplify the tax policy. If there are 1000 pages of tax code about sending your kids to grade school, which people are most likely to have that information? Romney probably knows the tax code very well. Other super rich people would be able to recite it as easily as nerds cite Monty Python. The people who don't know the tax code are people like us. The tax code needs to be simplified so it fits on a single sheet of paper. You earned X dollars, you pay Y taxes. Benefits would be the same. You made X dollars, you qualify for Y benefits.

20% might be too low for this to work. Let's bump that up to 25%.

Usually the way such a flat tax is instituted is through a consumption tax. GWB's administration looked at it and determined you would need about a 34% rate to cover things. So... keep climbing.
 
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