Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[xBiffx]

So please explain how a person died. Are you claiming it was an accident or the victims fault? If so, what evidence do you have to support this claim?

If it wasn't an accident or the victims fault, that would mean it was the police's fault. In that case, you should support charges against the cops correct?

What do you say to the fact that they ignored their own procedures and refused to seat belt him in?

What do you say to the fact that multiple officers all ignored the victim pleading for help and needing medical assistance?

I claimed nothing about the death or what led to it. Why would anyone do that without evidence?

I have said that if he was denied medical assistance then someone should be disciplined for that. I have said that the charges against these six officers are going to be hard to prove and therefore hard to get to stick. Sorry if everyone fails at reading comprehension and thinks that's some sort of right wing culture war or conspiracy.

It's been said before, "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove in court." That seems pretty apropos here.

 

[xBiffx]

How is the depraved heart murder charge overblown? My non-lawyer and nonexpert opinion after reading the law is that it's possible the mere act of not buckling the guy in, if proven caused his death, would meet that definition. If the defense can prove that he would have died had he still been buckled in maybe but I don't see how they do that.

Without going back and rereading everything, it seems that you have changed your tune significantly in this thread. Why are you against personal accountability? The dead guy wasn't even breaking any laws to be arrested so you can't say that he put himself in that position.

I have changed no tune. I made no conclusions unlike the vast majority posting in this thread (including yourself) due to lack of evidence/information. All I've done is asked for people to stay open minded before all the facts are known. I've also stated what an uphill battle the prosecution is going to have in this case give the charges.

I will also add that just because someone dies due to injuries while in police custody doesn't automatically mean something criminal took place. Again, not concluding anything about this case, just making yet another observation.

 

[OverVolt]

I claimed nothing about the death or what led to it. Why would anyone do that without evidence?

I have said that if he was denied medical assistance then someone should be disciplined for that. I have said that the charges against these six officers are going to be hard to prove and therefore hard to get to stick. Sorry if everyone fails at reading comprehension and thinks that's some sort of right wing culture war or conspiracy.

It's been said before, "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove in court." That seems pretty apropos here.

What!? Reason!?

Lets gang up on him on the internet until he gives up.

 

[werepossum]

No they don't. Getting tired of FUD that spreads around the internet so many times it becomes fact.

But its still FUD. Its just a media narrative. I haven't ever had any problems with cops. You guys should KNOW better because everyone also knows the media is full of shit these days and yet here you are talking about stuff you never personally experienced and just read about on the internet. Cause we all know if it was on the internet media its true.

Alot of you guys have been sucked in 110% by this.

I'd venture to say the vast majority of us with some age on us know white guys who have the crap beaten out of them by cops. Most of the ones I know admit it's their own fault.

Holy shit, they still haven't let that poor lady bury her son!!! They have video evidence of what happened so yeah, 5 1/2 months sounds pretty absurd, what new evidence could they possibly collect?

lol Video evidence makes it more difficult to close the case, not less. Especially if it gets out. True, it would make it much quicker if there was no pre-set desirable (perhaps even necessary?) conclusion, but that's not the case here.

We already have it. They're called the FBI. And they dont always bother to investigate. And they dont always find anything.

Excellent point.

 

[Exophase]

We already have it. They're called the FBI. And they dont always bother to investigate. And they dont always find anything.

I know. Emphasis on "performing."

 

[werepossum]

I have changed no tune. I made no conclusions unlike the vast majority posting in this thread (including yourself) due to lack of evidence/information. All I've done is asked for people to stay open minded before all the facts are known. I've also stated what an uphill battle the prosecution is going to have in this case give the charges.

I will also add that just because someone dies due to injuries while in police custody doesn't automatically mean something criminal took place. Again, not concluding anything about this case, just making yet another observation.

I'd say it's the defense that has an uphill battle here. I agree that generally speaking, just because someone dies due to injuries while in police custody doesn't automatically mean something criminal took place. But can you see any scenario where a man has his larynx crushed, his spine almost severed, and sustains numerous other serious injuries, AND is denied medical care for days, without something criminal taking place? I'm fairly pro-cop and I cannot see any possible scenario where these things happen without intentional criminal acts being committed. I'm guessing that the Baltimore jury pool is, on average, somewhat less pro-cop than am I. And while it's true that it is very difficult to convict a cop, I think most of that is prosecutorial reluctance. I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like we have that here.

 

[railer]

Cops harass and beat down white Americans now. Unless it looks egregious, we tend to just say "dumbass" and move on, but many, many such cases result in legal action. Somehow looting and burning our neighborhoods just doesn't seem particularly productive.

^This. Police brutality vs. a white person equals a stupid white person. Police brutality vs. a black person is racism, even if the cops are black. <shrug>

This thread has gone insane. Somehow its a right wing culture war yet things will only happen a certain way if the jury is a) racist b) white (same thing apparently) c) rich d) conservative (same as all of the above) e) all of the above.

Gotta love P&N sometimes.

Simple minds look for simple solutions. The lib/con scam never gets old to some.

 

[HumblePie]

So on NPR yesterday a neck and spine surgeon called in to weigh a bit of his opinion medically speaking of what he saw happened in the video he watched of Gray's arrest. He said it looked like the officers broke his back when arresting him and neck which explains the floppy legs and head when they were carrying him to the vehicle. That they didn't buckle him in, and more than likely a previous severe injury to the area was what caused the death in the end due to the broken vertebra with a rough unbuckled ride and a previous injury to the area. Which may have caused the death in the end.

The other big issue I'm seeing is the reason for the arrest in the first place. It was supposedly because he was carrying an "illegal" knife on him which isn't illegal under Maryland law, but supposedly in Baltimore it is. Which is basically a trumped up municipal statute made to give cops an excuse to "hassle" who they think may be gang members with knives. It is basically the same reason that law is effect around San Antonio as well. IMHO an un Constitutional law in the first place.

The point being the arrest was really illegal to make, making the actions of the officers illegal. Which led to the death of Freddie Gray. That an their subsequent actions of not treating an obviously wounded man that they wounded during the arrest is illegal as well since all first line responders, including police, are required to provide medical aid FIRST to anyone requiring it unless it jeopardizes their life to do so. Which was obviously not the case here. Cops fucked up here and should due the time for their misconduct in this case.

 

[werepossum]

So on NPR yesterday a neck and spine surgeon called in to weigh a bit of his opinion medically speaking of what he saw happened in the video he watched of Gray's arrest. He said it looked like the officers broke his back when arresting him and neck which explains the floppy legs and head when they were carrying him to the vehicle. That they didn't buckle him in, and more than likely a previous severe injury to the area was what caused the death in the end due to the broken vertebra with a rough unbuckled ride and a previous injury to the area. Which may have caused the death in the end.

The other big issue I'm seeing is the reason for the arrest in the first place. It was supposedly because he was carrying an "illegal" knife on him which isn't illegal under Maryland law, but supposedly in Baltimore it is. Which is basically a trumped up municipal statute made to give cops an excuse to "hassle" who they think may be gang members with knives. It is basically the same reason that law is effect around San Antonio as well. IMHO an un Constitutional law in the first place.

The point being the arrest was really illegal to make, making the actions of the officers illegal. Which led to the death of Freddie Gray. That an their subsequent actions of not treating an obviously wounded man that they wounded during the arrest is illegal as well since all first line responders, including police, are required to provide medical aid FIRST to anyone requiring it unless it jeopardizes their life to do so. Which was obviously not the case here. Cops fucked up here and should due the time for their misconduct in this case.

That's pretty much what I'd guessed, although supposedly there is footage of Gray standing just before he was put in the van. Either way, even a broken vertebra not leading to paralysis can easily become permanent paralysis and death if someone is flopping around the back of the van, especially if the cops are intentionally trying to rough him up on the ride.

 

[boomerang]

I'd say it's the defense that has an uphill battle here. I agree that generally speaking, just because someone dies due to injuries while in police custody doesn't automatically mean something criminal took place. But can you see any scenario where a man has his larynx crushed, his spine almost severed, and sustains numerous other serious injuries, AND is denied medical care for days, without something criminal taking place? I'm fairly pro-cop and I cannot see any possible scenario where these things happen without intentional criminal acts being committed. I'm guessing that the Baltimore jury pool is, on average, somewhat less pro-cop than am I. And while it's true that it is very difficult to convict a cop, I think most of that is prosecutorial reluctance. I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like we have that here.

I have seen no report anywhere of his larynx being crushed. I have only read that here.

I have seen no report anywhere of him being denied medical care in fact, I have read that an ambulance was called at Gray's request 30 minutes after his arrest. The ambulance was called because Gray had asked for medical attention and an inhaler.

I have seen no report anywhere of him having had other serious injuries. I had read of a bolt in the van matching an injury to him but I read it once and never saw it again.

I have read that he was not belted in. That, I would classify as some form of negligence. I certainly would not classify it as an 'intentional criminal act'. What charges that would bring upon the officer that shouldered that responsibility I do not know. I am not a lawyer.

What I'm getting at it that is important to deal with the facts as we know them and not innuendo and assumptions of which there are plenty within this thread. With that, I will present what I see as a possible explanation for his partially severed spinal cord.

He was not belted in.* I have seen nothing saying otherwise. We have a prisoner also being transported in the van saying that there was noise that sounded like Gray throwing himself around in the van. I'd say the combination of not being belted in, Gray's own actions and the movement of the van all led to him experiencing a partially severed spinal cord. This is my guess based upon what is known so far.

We have not seen the autopsy results. We have not seen any toxicology reports. We have seen next to nothing that could be classified as actual evidence.

Here is my current source for information:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/22/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

*To elaborate a bit more, were there in fact seat belts available in the van? A van that was customized to transport prisoners? I don't know. I do know that I am still reading about school buses that are not equipped with seat belts.

I am open to any information that runs counter to what I've stated here. I have no dog in this fight. I honestly don't care how it plays out. We are on a path to massive race riots and I see no way around it. If our media is going to focus on white cop on black killings while ignoring statistics on white cop on white killings, black perp on white cop killings and black perp on black cop killings, etc., the race war will come as surely as summer is coming.

I heard this evening that 35 cops have lost their lives in the line of duty since the first of this year. How many even made the news? I don't care if they did or they didn't. The point is that the media pulls the ring in our noses in the direction they wish to lead us. It's up to us to decide to resist or acquiesce.

 

[boomerang]

That's pretty much what I'd guessed, although supposedly there is footage of Gray standing just before he was put in the van.

The link to that video is right here in the thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YV0EtkWyno
He was standing under his own power, turned his head towards the phone recording him and talked prior to entering the van. 2:24

 

[railer]

It was supposedly because he was carrying an "illegal" knife on him which isn't illegal under Maryland law, but supposedly in Baltimore it is.

The point being the arrest was really illegal to make, making the actions of the officers illegal. Which led to the death of Freddie Gray.

Your two above statements conflict each other.

Also, police arrest people all the time, only to release them later, and "no charges were filed..." You see this in the media all the time. Is it right? Probably not. Is it "illegal"? I'm not sure what that even means relative to improper police arrests when no charges are filed. I'd be pretty surprised if any cop has ever been charged for that type of arrest.

 

[OverVolt]

..

 

[werepossum]

I have seen no report anywhere of his larynx being crushed. I have only read that here.

I have seen no report anywhere of him being denied medical care in fact, I have read that an ambulance was called at Gray's request 30 minutes after his arrest. The ambulance was called because Gray had asked for medical attention and an inhaler.

I have seen no report anywhere of him having had other serious injuries. I had read of a bolt in the van matching an injury to him but I read it once and never saw it again.

I have read that he was not belted in. That, I would classify as some form of negligence. I certainly would not classify it as an 'intentional criminal act'. What charges that would bring upon the officer that shouldered that responsibility I do not know. I am not a lawyer.

What I'm getting at it that is important to deal with the facts as we know them and not innuendo and assumptions of which there are plenty within this thread. With that, I will present what I see as a possible explanation for his partially severed spinal cord.

He was not belted in.* I have seen nothing saying otherwise. We have a prisoner also being transported in the van saying that there was noise that sounded like Gray throwing himself around in the van. I'd say the combination of not being belted in, Gray's own actions and the movement of the van all led to him experiencing a partially severed spinal cord. This is my guess based upon what is known so far.

We have not seen the autopsy results. We have not seen any toxicology reports. We have seen next to nothing that could be classified as actual evidence.

Here is my current source for information:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/22/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

*To elaborate a bit more, were there in fact seat belts available in the van? A van that was customized to transport prisoners? I don't know. I do know that I am still reading about school buses that are not equipped with seat belts.

I am open to any information that runs counter to what I've stated here. I have no dog in this fight. I honestly don't care how it plays out. We are on a path to massive race riots and I see no way around it. If our media is going to focus on white cop on black killings while ignoring statistics on white cop on white killings, black perp on white cop killings and black perp on black cop killings, etc., the race war will come as surely as summer is coming.

I heard this evening that 35 cops have lost their lives in the line of duty since the first of this year. How many even made the news? I don't care if they did or they didn't. The point is that the media pulls the ring in our noses in the direction they wish to lead us. It's up to us to decide to resist or acquiesce.

You are probably correct about the voice box injury. I'm assuming that people in here are more informed than I, but a quick search reveals no credible source claiming multiple injuries. The claim apparently stems from Gray's family. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32400497 However, something was up. Gray was a drug dealer; being arrested was hardly something new for him. Yet he was screaming and claiming he couldn't breath. That's not "without incident", yet that's how the arrest record reads. Dr. Ben Carson looked at the autopsy report and concluded that it would be almost impossible for the injuries sustained to be self-inflicted due to their severity. http://www.christianpost.com/news/f...in-a-van-says-neurosurgeon-ben-carson-138563/

Also, cops looked in on him several times; each time he asked for medical aid. Each time he was denied. Only after lapsing into unconsciousness was an ambulance called. Given that at least two other men have been paralyzed by similar rides in police wagons, repeated failures to secure Gray are criminally negligent in my opinion. Given that history, repeatedly stopping to check up on Gray - but not securing him or getting him medical attention as asked - seem to me to be more likely evidence that they intended to severely injure him before actually taking him in. Also, while there may be major trauma caused by a bolt, can such a trauma fracture no less than three vertebrae?

As for the seatbelts, there were definitely seat belts in the van, as the officers are being charged for their failure to secure him. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ts-what-we-know-about-the-freddie-gray-arrest

The link to that video is right here in the thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YV0EtkWyno
He was standing under his own power, turned his head towards the phone recording him and talked prior to entering the van. 2:24

Makes me think about spinal cord trauma. Not uncommonly, someone sustaining a severe neck injury is not immediately paralyzed. However, as the damaged spinal cord swells, it begins to press on the inside of the vertebra. That quite often does major damage resulting in permanent paralysis. And of course, if there are broken vertebrae there are also sharp edges to cut into the spinal cord, greatly increasing damage. There is a witness claiming that a cop had a knee on Gray's neck while another bent his legs forward, which could cause enough damage to cause the screaming. I take that with a big grain of salt. There are people on tape yesterday claiming that cops had shot a black man in the back when in fact cops had not fired, the gunshot was the man's pistol discharging as it struck the ground when he dropped it while fleeing, and in fact no one had been shot. But it's certainly true that Gray is dead, and at a minimum it's because he was not secured in the back of the van even though that is Baltimore PD's policy, several people have been paralyzed and otherwise severely injured from similar trips, and several cops looked in on him on multiple occasions. That isn't something being rotten in Denmark, that's Denmark being the Jalalabad dump.

And logically, had Gray been trying to injure himself, wouldn't he have chosen to bash his face against the many hard surfaces available, making bloody injuries suitable for claiming police brutality, rather than trying to break his own neck or stave in his own skull with a bolt he can't see in the attempt?

 

[HumblePie]

Your two above statements conflict each other.

Also, police arrest people all the time, only to release them later, and "no charges were filed..." You see this in the media all the time. Is it right? Probably not. Is it "illegal"? I'm not sure what that even means relative to improper police arrests when no charges are filed. I'd be pretty surprised if any cop has ever been charged for that type of arrest.

Detain and arrest are different and illegal arrest can carry consequences for officers.

 

[Dari]

You probably want Cleveland to be burned to the ground because of this too

Do you blame the Jews for the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (riots) as well?

 

[Fenixgoon]

Detain and arrest are different and illegal arrest can carry consequences for officers.

about the same as killing someone, i imagine (which is to say, the consequences are minimal)

 

[pcgeek11]

you don't know that, for a fact. thanks for the opinion piece.

And thanks for yours also... At this point it is all we have, opinions.

 

[pcgeek11]

Great job of concern trolling. I bet you asked "a lot of questions" about Obama's birth certificate as well. "I'm not a racist, I'm just asking a question"

Facts are, His legs were fine pre-arrest. It's a fact that he ran away and got caught, so prior to police involvement, he could run and use his legs.

Facts are that the police said no force was used in his arrest, and he had no injuries when put into the van. That is the cops report, not mine. That can lead to only two options:

#1 He was fine before getting into the van

#2 He was injured when put into the van, which means the cops lied on their report.

Fact: Cops didn't report an extra stop. Only video recording showed this. Ooops, cops lied again.

These are facts, do you care to dispute them?

Your first statement of this post shows you where you are just making crap up in an attempt to get me to respond with something equally stupid.

I refuse to answer your speculative post.

 

[ch33zw1z]

And thanks for yours also... At this point it is all we have, opinions.

There are some facts, which have been presented. We don't have all the facts yet, but what we do have is quite telling. Whether you choose to believe it, that's on you.

 

[fskimospy]

There are some facts, which have been presented. We don't have all the facts yet, but what we do have is quite telling. Whether you choose to believe it, that's on you.

It will be interesting to watch people become more and more adamant about their position as this thread goes on. By the end I wouldn't be surprised to see people say the police were 100% justified. It's the backfire effect.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Your first statement of this post shows you where you are just making crap up in an attempt to get me to respond with something equally stupid.

I refuse to answer your speculative post.

No, you are quite clearly concern trolling...you know it. Of course, you aren't the only one doing it in this thread.

Edit: nice dodge to ignore the facts of my post. Guess the facts don't matter to you....so again, concern trolling.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

It will be interesting to watch people become more and more adamant about their position as this thread goes on. By the end I wouldn't be surprised to see people say the police were 100% justified. It's the backfire effect.

Has Obama said anything about the charged cops yet? Because if he says anything about how he believes in the charges, that means the entire GOP will immediately proclaim the cops are innocent, "because Obama".

 

[xBiffx]

Yep, its a right wing conspiracy and culture war alright.

 

[fskimospy]

Yep, its a right wing conspiracy and culture war alright.

Who said anything about right wing conspiracies?

As for culture war, uhmm, yes. That much is obvious. Go look at differing perceptions of police actions in any range of cases by race and/or political ideology.