Free Speech or Too Far?

[UglyCasanova]

This is uncalled for, $50K for KG's head - http://www.whio.com/news/national/n...or-kathy-griffin-head/BN4xqjt28tWIkPbc8dUAWJ/

Very stupid but again I don't care. People are allowed to say stupid stuff. This could be argued as inciting violence but I don't think anyone actually takes what they are saying seriously.

 

[pcgeek11]

It's all fun and games until someone losses a head...

 

[xthetenth]

I've got about as little use for Maher as I do for Coulter. They're professionally shocking and just because Maher professes views closer to mine doesn't mean he isn't an inflammatory jerk whose net contribution is negative.

 

[Roflmouth]

I've got about as little use for Maher as I do for Coulter. They're professionally shocking and just because Maher professes views closer to mine doesn't mean he isn't an inflammatory jerk whose net contribution is negative.

I'm sure he cares even a little bit.

 

[xthetenth]

I'm sure he cares even a little bit.

This is a perfect post. It demonstrates absolutely no understanding of the subject or course of discussion. It makes no point worth making. It's just a context-free encapsulation of your posting career and self. You understand nothing and contribute nothing.

 

[Zaap]

Do you actually understand the (poor taste) joke he made?

A sitting senator (man of power) offers to have him "work the fields" in Nebraska, playing off the old Real America/only rural folks work hard trope as a put down & power play to California-liberal Maher.

Everyone gets what he said.

That's not the point and even he recognized it was completely out of line. The discussion, working fields in Nebraska- none if had a thing to do with slavery- so the joke was him bringing a racially charged stereotype as his go-to.

My observation is just how leftists blame someone else, and cover for it every time a fellow leftist says something racist and stupid.

 

[xthetenth]

Everyone gets what he said.

That's not the point and even he recognized it was completely out of line. The discussion, working fields in Nebraska- none if had a thing to do with slavery- so the joke was him bringing a racially charged stereotype as his go-to.

My observation is just how leftists blame someone else, and cover for it every time a fellow leftist says something racist and stupid.

All that plus some implications that leave us wondering what his idea of house slaves' lives were actually like is.

The one thing I do actually like about Maher is that when people who lean right criticize him they display an understanding of race that can be used against their later willful ignorance. Yay?

 

[Zaap]

All that plus some implications that leave us wondering what his idea of house slaves' lives were actually like is.

The one thing I do actually like about Maher is that when people who lean right criticize him they display an understanding of race that can be used against their later willful ignorance. Yay?

Its a lot more telling that just the mention of field labor brings up a connection to black people in the minds of some leftists. In a subject where that connection wasn't even remotely appropriate. Like some cannot separate the two. Racism of low expectations. It's typical on the left, and of course most will cover for it when displayed by other leftists.

 

[IronWing]

I must have an abnormally small offense gene. I just can't get offended by the crap that people say when they have no power over me or anyone else. Griffen (not sure I could pick her out of a police lineup), Maher, and the rest of the wonderland gang have no capacity to do me good or do me harm so I don't really care about their ranting and whining. I pay more attention when the crap comes from elected officials who can do me or others real damage.

 

[xthetenth]

Its a lot more telling that just the mention of field labor brings up a connection to black people in the minds of some leftists. In a subject where that connection wasn't even remotely appropriate. Like some cannot separate the two. Racism of low expectations. It's typical on the left, and of course most will cover for it when displayed by other leftists.

This is a subpar parroting of the classic "racism of low expectations" argument. You may as well ask why those libs are showing so many black people as slaves in the antebellum south. It is an explicit reference to slavery intended to tie the policies the Republicans support to their predecessors in the opposition to civil rights, the Jim Crow era and finally back to the days of slavery. It's poorly done because Maher has all the grace and eloquence of a methed out howler monkey, but that's at least the idea. So saying "why are deliberate allusions to slavery connected to (black) slavery" is attempting to make something out of connecting a thing to itself. It's incoherent nonsense.

Also that argument is bunk. It only works if you don't acknowledge that history and racism exist. It's meant to give people a way to oppose affirmative action and feel like they're a good person, expecting so much of these poor benighted people, and it's really just a slick repackaging of a lot of the patronizing attitudes of the White Man's Burden.

Would you expect a person whose great-grandparents had subpar access to education (Brown vs. Board was in 1954 and that's only the start of desegregation), whose family holds considerably less wealth, making it much more likely they'll have to work to make ends meet and focus less on their education (Tell me when black people's resumes get treated as well as white people's resumes and we can start a countdown of a few generations at which point that might have evened out), and so on to have the same things to put on a college application? No? Why not? You'll note that none of that has to do with skin color, it has everything to do with a society and wealth distribution that were shaped by racism.

Also, I'm going to point out that that's a self-serving one because sometimes legislation is deliberately targeted at things that serve as a proxy for race. Voting restrictions keep getting thrown out because of it. Now, pray tell, who does that?

 

[agent00f]

Hey, at least I don't throw accusations toward other posters without anything to back up my statements. Just saying.

Don't like my sig? Choke on it.

How is my engrish? Bite me.

Do you have anything to say beside ad hom attack?

Oh look, I am not crazy about your sig either but you don't see me whine and bitch about your sig or anyone else like low life bitches like you guys, right?

Its a lot more telling that just the mention of field labor brings up a connection to black people in the minds of some leftists. In a subject where that connection wasn't even remotely appropriate. Like some cannot separate the two. Racism of low expectations. It's typical on the left, and of course most will cover for it when displayed by other leftists.

I'm sure he cares even a little bit.

Exquisite posterkids for conservatism.

 

[xthetenth]

Exquisite posterkids for conservatism.

Comedy option: pick me. I used to be a conservative.

I'd like to flatter myself by thinking I'm a good example of an intellectually honest conservative.

 

[Roflmouth]

This is a subpar parroting of the classic "racism of low expectations" argument.

Oh look, the r-word. Everybody, run!

You may as well ask why those libs are showing so many black people as slaves in the antebellum south. It is an explicit reference to slavery intended to tie the policies the Republicans support to their predecessors in the opposition to civil rights, the Jim Crow era and finally back to the days of slavery. It's poorly done because Maher has all the grace and eloquence of a methed out howler monkey, but that's at least the idea. So saying "why are deliberate allusions to slavery connected to (black) slavery" is attempting to make something out of connecting a thing to itself. It's incoherent nonsense.

Or, it's completely apropos and you don't have the emotional continence to handle it.

Also that argument is bunk. It only works if you don't acknowledge that history and racism exist. It's meant to give people a way to oppose affirmative action and feel like they're a good person, expecting so much of these poor benighted people, and it's really just a slick repackaging of a lot of the patronizing attitudes of the White Man's Burden.

Would you expect a person whose great-grandparents had subpar access to education (Brown vs. Board was in 1954 and that's only the start of desegregation), whose family holds considerably less wealth, making it much more likely they'll have to work to make ends meet and focus less on their education (Tell me when black people's resumes get treated as well as white people's resumes and we can start a countdown of a few generations at which point that might have evened out), and so on to have the same things to put on a college application? No? Why not? You'll note that none of that has to do with skin color, it has everything to do with a society and wealth distribution that were shaped by racism.

There's a nice load of that white patrician horseshit we've all come to know and loathe. I wonder what the millions of successful black college graduates, entrepreneurs, and business owners might say about your hilarious attempts to remove the agency and free will of an entire minority class.

Also, I'm going to point out that that's a self-serving one because sometimes legislation is deliberately targeted at things that serve as a proxy for race.

"Proxy" in this case, meaning nonexistent, because it depends entirely on the amazing mind-reading powers of "progressive" shitheads who call everything racist.

Voting restrictions keep getting thrown out because of it. Now, pray tell, who does that?

Does what? Repeatedly and hilariously claim that blacks are too stupid to get photo IDs? Not the GOP, dear.

 

[HomerJS]

Oh look, the r-word. Everybody, run!
Does what? Repeatedly and hilariously claim that blacks are too stupid to get photo IDs? Not the GOP, dear.

Clearly this woman is too stupid to get photo ID. You are an asshole
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/...-certificate-required-bureaucrat-tells/60662/

 

[agent00f]

Comedy option: pick me. I used to be a conservative.

I'd like to flatter myself by thinking I'm a good example of an intellectually honest conservative.

The terms are somewhat confusing in the US due to their history. In the decades before when GOP was associated with conservatism and D's with liberalism it was pretty imperfect for numerous reasons, one of which was that access to higher ed & such was often outside the reach of unwashed masses. So there was a disconnect where the wealthier GOP conservatives were learning from liberal profs (ie students of the western enlightenment) and applying that knowledge to rationalize political policy in the interest of their more monied classes. So in all fairness that "traditional" american conservatism was rather well rationalized intellectually speaking.

This started to change as education became increasingly democratized (eg. deseg/civil-rights) and thus the "democratic" classes better aligned with the actual ideals of the enlightenment gradual came to thoroughly dominate schools, as they rightly should given a well educated public was always the ideal of western liberalism. Trump & fans in a lot of ways perfectly exemplifies that transition with his +14% pickup of non-college whites and similar exodus of the educated in the opposite direction. So the conservatism/GOP and liberalism/Democrat association is more true today than ever before.

 

[xthetenth]

Oh god, someone call the cops. Someone's kidnapped Roflmouth!

Seriously though, unironically, this is not only a significant step up in your posting but overall one of the better righty posts I've seen in this forum recently. It's responding to the arguments being raised and making actual counterarguments. I mean I don't agree with a single one of them, but it's actually raising points that can be meaningfully refuted rather than drive-by posts making unsupported claims.

Oh look, the r-word. Everybody, run!

Literal direct quote, and it's referring to an old, well-worn argument. If you're going to riff on the usual schtick of acting like mentioning that accusations of racism are a big deal then at least save it for an actual accusation. Incidentally it is entirely possible for things to be racist without the person who says them being A Racist, it has a lot to do with how emotionally mature their reaction to the resulting dialog is.

Or, it's completely apropos and you don't have the emotional continence to handle it.

That's a good posting style and I like it, what with it being a decent imitation of mine. I'm flattered. On the other hand, it revolves around the phrase "emotional continence" and you don't manage to connect that to anything I say, which rather diffuses the impact of an absolutely dictionary perfect use of apropos. Pity.

And no, the objection isn't to do with emotion, it's got to do with it being nothing but an incendiary phrasing of a particularly abstruse joke about Republicans being racist, which is some well trod ground at this point. Insightful humor works off of a novel connection between two ideas and from this perspective Maher's falling way short..

There's a nice load of that white patrician horseshit we've all come to know and loathe. I wonder what the millions of successful black college graduates, entrepreneurs, and business owners might say about your hilarious attempts to remove the agency and free will of an entire minority class.

Congrats, you actually managed to almost skewer one of the actual real problems on the left, which is that a lot of white people on the left are still really bad about confronting racial issues and listening to actual black people and their opinions. That's why Hillary got so much support from non-young black voters against Bernie incidentally. Even if some of what she supported was mistaken and disastrous when implemented by the monkey's paw that is American politics, it was reflective of actual desires from the black community.

Anyway, reread what you're responding to. Succeeding despite greater or any obstacles doesn't mean you have agency or free will, it just makes your achievements all the more impressive. You don't suddenly stop being a better sprinter just because you still won when jumping another two hurdles.

Frankly I'm playing life on easy mode and I freely acknowledge but if I had to overcome what a lot of black success stories did, I just wouldn't have overcome it and I very likely wouldn't be where I am or where they are today.

"Proxy" in this case, meaning nonexistent, because it depends entirely on the amazing mind-reading powers of "progressive" shitheads who call everything racist.

Nahh, sorry. In this case I'm referring to such things as the NC GOP failing to keep it off the record that they were specifically looking at which days of early voting were used most by minority voters when drafting up which days of early voting they'd restrict. Even after the Voting Rights Act got gutted, that particular shenanigan didn't pass muster with the Supreme Court. Things deliberately chosen to affect as many minorities as possible are proxies for race.

Does what? Repeatedly and hilariously claim that blacks are too stupid to get photo IDs? Not the GOP, dear.

Why did you just jump to the only reason why people can't get photo IDs is stupidity? Be intellectually curious. Look at the obstacles people mention.

Heck, even though it's based on the same well worn ideological bedrock of other arguments about leftists being patronizing, it's in your own words, engages well with the points it's contesting, and is a coherent argument. Well done!

The terms are somewhat confusing in the US due to their history. In the decades before when GOP was associated with conservatism and D's with liberalism it was pretty imperfect for numerous reasons, one of which was that access to higher ed & such was often outside the reach of unwashed masses. So there was a disconnect where the wealthier GOP conservatives were learning from liberal profs (ie students of the western enlightenment) and applying that knowledge to rationalize political policy in the interest of their more monied classes. So in all fairness that "traditional" american conservatism was rather well rationalized intellectually speaking.

This started to change as education became increasingly democratized (eg. deseg/civil-rights) and thus the "democratic" classes better aligned with the actual ideals of the enlightenment gradual came to thoroughly dominate schools, as they rightly should given a well educated public was always the ideal of western liberalism. Trump & fans in a lot of ways perfectly exemplifies that transition with his +14% pickup of non-college whites and similar exodus of the educated in the opposite direction. So the conservatism/GOP and liberalism/Democrat association is more true today than ever before.

I'm an unabashed leftist now, I was making a joke about that being an outcome of the conflict between intellectual honesty, what conservatism claims to be its endgoals, and the world as it exists.

 

[Sea Ray]

Very stupid but again I don't care. People are allowed to say stupid stuff. This could be argued as inciting violence but I don't think anyone actually takes what they are saying seriously.

She is allowed to say stupid stuff. She hasn't been arrested. Her freedom to speak is protected and I think we all agree that she should have that right

 

[justoh]

Free speech or too far? Free will or too high? Free market or too deep? All good thread ideas.

 

[UNCjigga]

Bump. Wasn't sure whether to create a new thread or just bump this one:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/11/arts/delta-airline-trump-public-theater-julius-caesar.html

Basically, Delta and Bank of America have pulled out and conservatives are in uproar over a NYC public theater Shakespeare play depicting a Trump-like Julius Caesar. Spoiler alert: He gets stabbed repeatedly and dies.

 

[BoomerD]

Unless the evil gubmint tries to shut her up, it's not a free speech issue. Is it distasteful? Sure is...but her employer is free to fire her for it...and any sponsors are free to pull their support as well.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Bump. Wasn't sure whether to create a new thread or just bump this one:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/11/arts/delta-airline-trump-public-theater-julius-caesar.html

Basically, Delta and Bank of America have pulled out and conservatives are in uproar over a NYC public theater Shakespeare play depicting a Trump-like Julius Caesar. Spoiler alert: He gets stabbed repeatedly and dies.

You should start a new thread

I read this earlier. I think it's silly, considering the plot is unchanged.