Free Trade versus Democracy

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Free Trade is the enemy of democracy. In ways.

Much as the US is at war with one Germany and allied with another Germany, it is at war with and allied with parts of Free Trade.

This is 'politically incorrect' to say. The right wants free trade to not only be Democracy's unqualified ally for the put purpose of the people accepting it; they not only want them to be synonymous, the way that 'John' and 'Jack' can be two names for the same guy; they want people to think that Democracy requires free trade, it's built on it, withough free trade you can't have Democracy.

This is wrong, and is the propaganda of the wealthy.

Like so much in politics, things aren't black and white. 'Revolution' is wonderful in one case, as disastrous in another, depedning on your point of view. Protectionism isn't only 'bad' or 'good' nor is free trade. It's simply a policy that serves some interests and harms some others.

To discuss this we have to go to the root theory of democracy, something that's all too fogotten today by too many.

Democracy is nothing but the principle that the people have the moral right to determine, as a group, the policies that affect them, rather than having 'rulers' set the policies for their own reasons who are not required to follow the wishes of the people. There are flavors of democracy - direct, representative - but the idea is the same.

So, the fundamental idea of democracy is that there are interests who want something that is at odds with the majority, and that the benefit of democracy is to hand over the power to block those interests to the majority. Mr. Billionare wants to declare the Grand Canyon his personal property, the public says no, you can have a nice house somewhere, but the canyon is for all the public to enjoy. And they can overcome whatever influence he has to make it stick - his money, his ability to hire thugs - the government can prevail.

So, back to free trade. The real history of 'free trade' is that it has often been used by a powerful nation against a weaker one as a weapon. A nation often grows its own industries and development by using protectionism, while it makes a weaker nation weaker and dependant on it by focing them to buy their products. There are centuries of poweful nations forcing this at gunpoint - see especially England. The very term "Gunboat Diplomacy" is from the US sending a gunboat to Japan, who had chosen to close its doors to the world for centuries, to tell them that they would either open those doors and allow US products to be sold, or be killed.

An example of the hypocrisy that exists was noted by Howard Zinn:

President Reagan, early in his administration, was part of a "North-South Summit" of twenty-three nations meeting in Mexico to discuss the problems of poor nations. Mexican writer Carlos Fuentes related an exchange between Reagan and the leader of Tanzania, Julius Nyerere:

Mr. Reagan... still insists that private enterprise do the job from scratch, which is not possible. When Reagan said that the problems of agriculture and food production could be solved only by private enterprise, Neyerer immediately shot back: "But Mr. President, you have the most heaviy subsidized agrculture in the world... It is an agriculture propped up by state interventionism, so what are you talking about?"

Over a century ago, President Grant said it very clearly:

?For centuries England has relied on protection, has carried it to extremes and has obtained satisfactory results from it. There is no doubt that it is to this system that it owes its present strength. After two centuries, England has found it convenient to adopt free trade because it thinks that protection can no longer offer it anything. Very well then, gentlemen, my knowledge of our country leads me to believe that within 200 years, when America has gotten out of protection all that it can offer, it too will adopt free trade.?

He only underestimated the speed in which it would happen - the US's power greatly accelerated after this, and by the end of WWII, the US was ready and made the basis of its foreign policy to push free trade. Nearly all the federal budget from the founding of the country until the 1910's was paid for not by the non-existent income tax, but by protectionist taxes, during which time America greatly developed our industries.

So, where does the conflict with Democracy come in?

Many places. A few examples:

International corporations, aided by international institutions including the world bank and the IMF, can create enormous pressures - sticks and carrots - for weaker nations' leaders to accept 'free trade' policies bad for the nations, by threatening the nations with economic harm if not war, and by offering a 'cut of the action' to the leaders. This is a direct attack on those nations' democratic systems, designed to represent the public interest over those powerful corporations.

Free Trade agreements have had written into them directly anti-democratic provisions; recognizing that the corporations have an interest in measures which democracy will reliably block, these agreements have provisions to subvert the elected governent's power to say 'no', with such indirect means as obligating the government to compensate any firm who loses profits to a government policy. Recognizing that some very fundamental level of protection of the public is needed, they set up a system whereby disputes are to be resolved by a private board, appointed by the private sector and unaccountable to anyone else, is given the power to rule on the issues, and the government has no appeal and must pay up to crippling sums if the board rules against them, creating a huge, hidden pressure on elected governments not to pass laws protecting the public that run the risk of that liability.

This is not the 'honest debate' of the era of the Federalist Papers, with each side making its case. This is a situation where one side - the corporate side - knows the public wouldn't agree, and so the policies are hidden and they deny any conflict with democracy - forcing opposnents to convince an apathetic public to get involved, all the while funding massive propaganda programs to build support for 'free trade', in which the anti-democratic policies are buried in the small print.

An example of 'free trade', hearkening back to the 18th 1and 19th centuries and the England-CHina Opium wars, which England foughtto force China to allows the Britihs to sell Opium in their country, is how even while President Obama this week signed an anti-tobacco bill, the US pushed free trade policies to protect its tobacco industries' right to sell tobacco into foreign countries - for example, again quoting Zinn:

[Under the first President Bush]... the United States was putting pressure on Thailand , which banned tobacco, to accept American tobacco exports. But there was a strong dissenting voice from Dr. C. Everett Koop... surgeon general of the United States, in obvious disagreement with many government policies. Koop told a public hearing in Washington:

Years from now, I'm afraid that our nation will look back on this application of free trade policy and find it scandalous, as the rest of the world does now... At a time when we are pleading with foreign governments to stop the export of cocaine, it is the height of hypocrisy for the Unites States to export tobacco.

Koop ended his testimony with devastating statistics. "Last year, in the United States, 2000 people died from cocains. In the sameyear, cigarettes killed 390,000 people."

It's about power, the power to profit not only within the areas the public will approve, but the ones they won't - by defeating democracy.

Whether by evasion, by cheating, by crossing borders, by corrupting policitians to insert languae they want, by the influence of their money in the election system, the result is the same, an effort under the 'branding' of "free trade", with the public conditioned to accept the phrase as good policy, to defeat the system of democracy in its ability to represent the public interest when the public interest and the interests of corporations conflict.

They will never run a candidate who says these things honestly and in a straightforward manner. They will nominate candidates who are good salesman who can sneak them in.

Such as ones with grandfatherly images and a devastating ability to toss out pithy sayings about how 'the most frightening words in the language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here ot help'' - ha, ha, until the real agenda's revealed as the sort of deregulator policies that led to the economic crash now.

The public needs to understand not to blindly trust and accept the phrase 'free trade', and to look for the wolf in sheep's clothing, and to vigilantly protect democracy.

Or to lose it - in substance, if not in skeletal form.

Consider an example of this: who is Eric Schaeffer? You don't know; I didn't know until reading about him in a book. But we all should know.

He was an example of a common situation during the Bush presidency - a pulblic servent who ran headfirst into corruption and was flattened. The EPA was highly compromised; as its first Secretary under Bush, Christine Whitman, said, there was a scientific consensus in the agency on issues, but it could not speak out, because it was overruled by a group with no scientists, the White House Council on Environmental Quality; it was tun by James Connaighton, a former lobbyist for power and electric utilities.

To quote from "Banana Republicans":

Eric Schaeffer, the EPA's director of enforcement, resigned from the agency in 2002 to protest White House interference in EPA assessments. "I'm used to compromise,'" Schaeffer said. "I've worked in government most of my life. Under the Bush administration I saw something else. This was not a matter of ttying to find a reaonabple balance, but of taking whatever the industry gave us and feeling like we had to eat it. We had to accept it no matter how wrong it was."

Some issues were debated - the Iraq war, to a lesser extent the Bush borrowed tax cuts - but this should have been a major public issue. Do you remember ever hearing it reported in the media? No, it was buried by the 'big' issues. It's an example of how there can be a massive yet silent corruption of the government by these economic interests.

These are the real issues that threaten our nation's well-being - the interests know they're in conflict with democracy in the lang run, and are working on how to defeat it.

Are our citizens limited in their 'defense of the nation's democracy' to following the lead of Rush for the day, or can they get a bit more informed and learn what the real threats are?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Free Trade is Democracy. It is the Government that attempts to create laws that interfere with free trade. One major problem is that banking investigators did not do their job, and enough people involved in the housing industry have not gone to court or jail. The problem is a lot of them are dirty democrats. Frankly, I think there is a lot of dirt on both sides and we need term limits in the House and the Senate. We need to kick all the cronies out. We also need term limits on the Supreme Court. I think 8 years is enough time for any supreme court judge. After that time they become too jaded and dont have a clue what it means to work for a living.

We have plenty of laws about free trade. For instance every CEO is suppose to sign off on every stock report. So how come more CEO's are not in jail?
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
Free Trade is Democracy. It is the Government that attempts to create laws that interfere with free trade. One major problem is that banking investigators did not do their job, and enough people involved in the housing industry have not gone to court or jail. The problem is a lot of them are dirty democrats. Frankly, I think there is a lot of dirt on both sides and we need term limits in the House and the Senate. We need to kick all the cronies out. We also need term limits on the Supreme Court. I think 8 years is enough time for any supreme court judge. After that time they become too jaded and dont have a clue what it means to work for a living.

We have plenty of laws about free trade. For instance every CEO is suppose to sign off on every stock report. So how come more CEO's are not in jail?
Republican Party?

 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Blind faith in free trade is like blind faith in any idealogy - total fail. Some places it makes sense to enact reasonable tarriffs. However, many pro-business interests and economists have almost tried to make 'tarriff' a dirty word when it comes to policymaking. If we do not act, we will see more evaporation of American industry and quality of life.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Craig234 is the enemy of democracy.

Economic equality is not a defining characteristic of democracy, nor does economic equality guarantee political equality. Likewise, heavily regulated or even state-controlled trade does not guarantee economic equality.

The OP was basically one rambling non sequitur. The only thing he was right about is that there is no black and white, although he did spend the rest of the post trying to disprove himself on that point.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Its really simple really. People talk about equality, but in reality men are NOT equal. "Free trade" and all the other freedoms we talk about give an advantage to the smarter harder working people. On one end this seems great that we are benefiting those who the best qualities in life, however the problem is it also means you have a HUGE class divide.

Its a problem of philosophies which in theory work together but in practice work against each other. We say everyone is equal and everyone is free. In our country we act like these are a very similar philosophy, but in practice the ore freedom and less control you put on people the more they will become LESS EQUAL. Those who have nto been blessed with the talents needed to succeed in this world point out that it is unfair that they birth (nature and nurture) has doomed them to poverty. Those who work the hardest cry foul jsut the same that they produce so much and yet half of it goes to those who produce very little. Life is unfortunately not fair, and so free trade is in reality as inherently unfair as any other form of trade (its just who your personal philosophy tells you SHOULD benefit that you have to follow, and in reality for 95% of people their personal philosophies rather suspiciously turn out to be in favor of whatever most benefits THEMSELVES).
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
free trade is evil argument from our resident socialist, I'm shocked.
 

ModerateRepZero

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2006
1,572
5
81
We say everyone is equal and everyone is free. In our country we act like these are a very similar philosophy, but in practice the ore freedom and less control you put on people the more they will become LESS EQUAL.

That depends on how you define 'equality'. If you think of it as a concept dealing with moral value and legal rights / privileges, we are all roughly equal.....Killing someone is usually a tragedy, and usually is prosecuted absent mitigating factors (ie self defense). Furthermore, as a general principle, there's no difference between Bill Gates and a lowly pauper who brings a lawsuit or complaint before a court. Both are entitled to have their chance in court to argue the merits of their legal proceeding.

The Founding Fathers meant to ensure equality of OPPORTUNITY, not equal outcomes, and in that respect they have succeeded admirably. This is not to say, however, that there is little work to be done (there certainly is), but the US is not an aristocracy.
 

DerekWilson

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2003
2,920
34
81
Fuck Democracy; I want my Constitutional Republic back.

I don't care about democracy, I care about LIBERTY.

::EDIT:: okay I'll clarify just a little bit...

The idea of liberty requires the protection of the individual from other individuals and groups including other individuals. A Constitutional Republic protects the minority and the individual form the majority by limiting what the majority can do (via the rule of law as spelled out in the constitution). Real representative republican government also has interesting effects that mitigate the "popular" vote effect.

We really need senators to be appointed by state legislators and for the electoral college to return to what it was meant to be.

Democracy puts the minority and the individual at the mercy of the majority in all ways.

Government "regulation," in many cases (I'm not an anarchist or even capital L libertarian), is at odds with the idea of liberty because it puts people in charge of other people.

Free trade allows the market to regulate it self -- it is very hard to manipulate on a country wide (or global) scale. Putting people or "free trade agreements" (which are the antithesis of free trade) in charge of it takes the power and concentrates it in the hands of men. I could give you plenty of historical context to show just how much damage this can cause, but I've not got the time right now.

The problem with "free trade agreements" and "fair trade" and extensive government regulations is that they distill something down to a degree that makes it ripe for abuse.

You can't have real free trade with embargoes that are not considered acts of war. You can't have real free trade with "free trade agreements" that actually regulate the trade (I love how our government manipulates us with names so easily). No, what we have in this country is not free trade -- it hasn't been for a while. But it should certainly return there as quickly as possible.

And you can't have real freedom without constant vigilance against the tyranny of the majority and the tyranny of a government that wields WAY too much power.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: DerekWilson
Fuck Democracy; I want my Constitutional Republic back.

I don't care about democracy, I care about LIBERTY.

::EDIT:: okay I'll clarify just a little bit...

The idea of liberty requires the protection of the individual from other individuals and groups including other individuals. A Constitutional Republic protects the minority and the individual form the majority by limiting what the majority can do (via the rule of law as spelled out in the constitution). Real representative republican government also has interesting effects that mitigate the "popular" vote effect.

We really need senators to be appointed by state legislators and for the electoral college to return to what it was meant to be.

Democracy puts the minority and the individual at the mercy of the majority in all ways.

Government "regulation," in many cases (I'm not an anarchist or even capital L libertarian), is at odds with the idea of liberty because it puts people in charge of other people.

Free trade allows the market to regulate it self -- it is very hard to manipulate on a country wide (or global) scale. Putting people or "free trade agreements" (which are the antithesis of free trade) in charge of it takes the power and concentrates it in the hands of men. I could give you plenty of historical context to show just how much damage this can cause, but I've not got the time right now.

The problem with "free trade agreements" and "fair trade" and extensive government regulations is that they distill something down to a degree that makes it ripe for abuse.

You can't have real free trade with embargoes that are not considered acts of war. You can't have real free trade with "free trade agreements" that actually regulate the trade (I love how our government manipulates us with names so easily). No, what we have in this country is not free trade -- it hasn't been for a while. But it should certainly return there as quickly as possible.

And you can't have real freedom without constant vigilance against the tyranny of the majority and the tyranny of a government that wields WAY too much power.

If you don't understand the symbiotic relationship between liberty and democracy, you're missing a very important part of understanding the issues.

Democracy does NOT necessarily, as you say, put the minority and the individual at the mercy of the majority - I'd meant to write a comment on that - that's what constitutional rights are for, when the majority recognizes the benefits of protecting some of those core rights and limiting its own power to override them, as our constitution does in the Bill of Rights and the super-majority requirement to override them.

That's a more effective prtotection for those rights than the representative system you suggest for the purpose - representatives are far more easily caught up in their own agenda that might offer protection from one group - the popular majority - but not from another - the representatives. Do you really feel safe with majority votes in Congress replacing the constitution for protecting individual rights?

You sound to me, despite not being a 'capital L Libertarian', like you share their having what I view as a radical view of the role of government and of democracy as not including 'regulation' because it "puts people in charge of other people". There is a sort of faux-'independance' from that that certain people think exists, but in my view it's naive, it's misguided, and it leads the way to a loss of freedom.

What are your freedoms as an individual aginst any organized group who tell you they own the land, the property, the food and water, and you own nothing - you are their economic slave, accept it or perish. You need to hope there is some counter-power to a group like that - and the only 'counter-power' that works in that role is one based on democracy.

Ultimately, you have to trust in other people in some way - because it's the only real alternative to the abuse of power by smaller groups.

The romantic days of popular revolution in a nation like the US - and our own revolution even then with an ocean protecting us was nearly lost, saved only by France - are long over. There are no alternatives to 'making democracy work'. The power of the people to have any leverage is dangeroulsy precarious. It runs the risk of resting on a foundation of ony being rolerated as a facade because it keeps people cooperating but without any real foundation should the people try to actually challenge power.

The battles of democracy such as campaign finance reform are no less important and essential to democracy than the battles now obsolete fought with guns in the streets.

There is a stereotype of a certain type tech person who has a sort of libertarian mindset, and when you list ONLY the dangers of the public majority and the government, with nary a word of the dangers of private, concentrated power of wealth, you sound like you fit the stereotype, and are dangerously unaware of real versus imagined dangers to democracy.

You posted fairly limited details; I suspect we could find some common ground if we pursue them, but I also have concern about some of your fundamental points made.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Edit: there is a poster who does not deserve a reponse, who I have decided to withdraw a response to for that reason. Those who have followed the board a while can guess who.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
While free trade and democracy are certainly not one in the same... not even close really... there can be no doubt that the economic policies are extremely important in the political scheme of a democracy.

That democracy needs to design economic policy that actually works... in democracy that pretty much always includes a vestige of free trade.... and often much. much more.

I think I may see where some folks are going with this... that democracy is more about what it is good for the majority than for the individual or the elite... and that is supposed to be true. But you can't infringe on the rights and freedoms of a select few for the good of many... that is true in warrantless wire tapping and it is true of personal wealth.

Truly free trade, no strings attached no interfering government, is more or less a fantasy... there are so many historical examples of tremendous abuse (e.g. std oil). So now we have opted for a truce of sorts between the ultrawealth and the needs of the people (although the situation is pretty corrupt and laughable now).


With regards to the socio economic gap that IS the US these days:

The way to a more economically balanced society is not to simply saddle the wealthy with more and more of the tax burden simply because they are rich... that is both unfair to them in many cases and dangerous for our economy. Eventually we would push the wealthy/corporation out of this country whilst at the lower levels many of the poorer among us (and I'm one of them right now) would feel the lethargy of socialism where all of our fundamental needs are met... ease generally promotes sloth.

I think Norway, among others countries, has it right... there is a multiplier threshold on salaries in Norway so that at given companies the CEO and other big wigs may only a salary that is say 15x of the lowest paid salary in the company (it's bit more complicated of course but that is the jist). that way companies can't engorge their fat cats whilst leaving their other hardworking employees in the wake. So in order to pay their CEO 1 million they have to pay their lowest salaried employ at least 67k. Keeps thing from getting too top heavy and leaves more money to be distributed to reward blue collar workers etc.

Something like that will never pass here of course but I think it would be a good idea.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Craig234
Edit: there is a poster who does not deserve a reponse, who I have decided to withdraw a response to for that reason. Those who have followed the board a while can guess who.

:laugh:

Translation: "Vic pwns me."

Craig, every time you look in the mirror you see an authoritarian.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Craig234
Edit: there is a poster who does not deserve a reponse, who I have decided to withdraw a response to for that reason. Those who have followed the board a while can guess who.

:laugh:

Translation: "Vic pwns me."

Craig, every time you look in the mirror you see an authoritarian.

Bamacre, nothing you have posted previously has made me lose respect for you the way this post did. Good luck, I think we're done.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
While free trade and democracy are certainly not one in the same... not even close really... there can be no doubt that the economic policies are extremely important in the political scheme of a democracy.

That democracy needs to design economic policy that actually works... in democracy that pretty much always includes a vestige of free trade.... and often much. much more.

I think his is very reasonable - but SOME economic policy in a democracy does not need to 'work' in terms of productivity, it can be for humanitarian or other purpose.

I think I may see where some folks are going with this... that democracy is more about what it is good for the majority than for the individual or the elite... and that is supposed to be true. But you can't infringe on the rights and freedoms of a select few for the good of many... that is true in warrantless wire tapping and it is true of personal wealth.

It's a terrible analogy.

I'm going to return to Presidnet Grant for a comment:

"As we view the achievements of aggregated capital, we discover the existence of trusts, combinations, and monopolies, while the citizen is struggling far in the rear or is trampled to death beneath an iron heel. Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people's masters."

Your comment completely neglects the issue of the concentrated power and wealth that can come to exist beign a form of tyranny the public needs protection from.

Of *course* the public can infringe on the rights and freedoms of a select few for the good of others - it's done every time they prevent slavery, prevent monopoly, prevent tyranny.

But it can't be done for small reasons, a degree of inequality for those who deserve more is good for the society.

Truly free trade, no strings attached no interfering government, is more or less a fantasy... there are so many historical examples of tremendous abuse (e.g. std oil). So now we have opted for a truce of sorts between the ultrawealth and the needs of the people (although the situation is pretty corrupt and laughable now).

With regards to the socio economic gap that IS the US these days:

The way to a more economically balanced society is not to simply saddle the wealthy with more and more of the tax burden simply because they are rich... that is both unfair to them in many cases and dangerous for our economy. Eventually we would push the wealthy/corporation out of this country whilst at the lower levels many of the poorer among us (and I'm one of them right now) would feel the lethargy of socialism where all of our fundamental needs are met... ease generally promotes sloth.

That last is ideology, IMO false ideology. I see all kinds of very hard-working poor - and issues of inhumane situations for them.

People have plenty of incentives to be productive. They do better when they are not struggling for the basic needs. Base the statement on facts, not ideology.

I think Norway, among others countries, has it right... there is a multiplier threshold on salaries in Norway so that at given companies the CEO and other big wigs may only a salary that is say 15x of the lowest paid salary in the company (it's bit more complicated of course but that is the jist). that way companies can't engorge their fat cats whilst leaving their other hardworking employees in the wake. So in order to pay their CEO 1 million they have to pay their lowest salaried employ at least 67k. Keeps thing from getting too top heavy and leaves more money to be distributed to reward blue collar workers etc.

Something like that will never pass here of course but I think it would be a good idea.

I think something like that has a lot of benefits. The people don't realize it, though.

So, we agree on some things, but not all your points.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Craig234
Edit: there is a poster who does not deserve a reponse, who I have decided to withdraw a response to for that reason. Those who have followed the board a while can guess who.

:laugh:

Translation: "Vic pwns me."

Craig, every time you look in the mirror you see an authoritarian.

Bamacre, nothing you have posted previously has made me lose respect for you the way this post did. Good luck, I think we're done.

I can't speak for Bamacre, but I'd take that as a compliment coming from you.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Craig234
Edit: there is a poster who does not deserve a reponse, who I have decided to withdraw a response to for that reason. Those who have followed the board a while can guess who.

:laugh:

Translation: "Vic pwns me."

Craig, every time you look in the mirror you see an authoritarian.

Bamacre, nothing you have posted previously has made me lose respect for you the way this post did. Good luck, I think we're done.
I have this vision of Craig as a child.

Craig would bring a bag full of balls to the park. A game of dodgeball would commence, and once he got knocked out, he would begin a long lecture about the unfairness of the game, how the teams were not balanced and the innate unfairness of the practice of picking teams. When everyone told him he was an idiot, he would collect his balls and explain calmly that he was going home and the game was over.

The next day he would arrive with a baseball bat, ball and glove. Rinse and repeat.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
We say everyone is equal and everyone is free. In our country we act like these are a very similar philosophy, but in practice the ore freedom and less control you put on people the more they will become LESS EQUAL.

That depends on how you define 'equality'. If you think of it as a concept dealing with moral value and legal rights / privileges, we are all roughly equal.....Killing someone is usually a tragedy, and usually is prosecuted absent mitigating factors (ie self defense). Furthermore, as a general principle, there's no difference between Bill Gates and a lowly pauper who brings a lawsuit or complaint before a court. Both are entitled to have their chance in court to argue the merits of their legal proceeding.

The Founding Fathers meant to ensure equality of OPPORTUNITY, not equal outcomes, and in that respect they have succeeded admirably. This is not to say, however, that there is little work to be done (there certainly is), but the US is not an aristocracy.

That about sums it up. Equality is not about equal outcomes.
 

DerekWilson

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2003
2,920
34
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
We say everyone is equal and everyone is free. In our country we act like these are a very similar philosophy, but in practice the ore freedom and less control you put on people the more they will become LESS EQUAL.

That depends on how you define 'equality'. If you think of it as a concept dealing with moral value and legal rights / privileges, we are all roughly equal.....Killing someone is usually a tragedy, and usually is prosecuted absent mitigating factors (ie self defense). Furthermore, as a general principle, there's no difference between Bill Gates and a lowly pauper who brings a lawsuit or complaint before a court. Both are entitled to have their chance in court to argue the merits of their legal proceeding.

The Founding Fathers meant to ensure equality of OPPORTUNITY, not equal outcomes, and in that respect they have succeeded admirably. This is not to say, however, that there is little work to be done (there certainly is), but the US is not an aristocracy.

That about sums it up. Equality is not about equal outcomes.

I certainly agree with this.

To respond to your response to me, Craig, I am not a corporatist and I believe there need to be more limitations on corporations than there currently are.

But I feel this is separate from the free market issue.

I agree that I did not go into the details and I would certainly like to do that at some point when I've got the time. I just wanted to present the conclusions I have drawn from my life and research with some brief explanation of some points.

I feel a lot of the problem is that our elected representatives end up being controlled by lobbyists and corporate interests rather than what's good for the people. Even beyond that, I believe that in order to be reelected (because "serving" is very lucrative), those who are sworn to uphold the constitution are more than willing to disregard what it says in order to placate the majority thus giving us a defacto democracy with no constitutional protection.

Government service should really be "service" with little compensation (possibly proportionate to one's means in order to allow anyone to serve -- see, I'm not Libertarian) and none of the ridiculous perks that we see handed out left and right on capitol hill.
 

themusgrat

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2005
1,408
0
0
The whole thing is retarded. Free trade does not necessarily go with democracy, you are right about that. But nobody actually has Free Trade, what we have is a regulated version of Free Trade. You're kind of right that truly limitless free trade would be at odds, in some regards, with democracy. But fortunately, things aren't black and white, as you very astutely pointed out. The whole thing is useless of course, our democracy wants free trade, and that's that.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Democracy is the enemy of Free Trade and Freedom. In a democracy 51% can vote to take from and oppress the minority 49%.

Unfortunately, even though a benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government that can provide the most freedoms, it can turn the other way and become oppressive.

So we settle for a Republic, which is a form of democracy with controls in place to make it difficult for the majority to take from the minority. However, recent history has shown that the Republic is not perfect and can become an effective democracy.

The evolution of this government is a Republic that turns into an Obamaic Democracy where the majority oppress the minority and hopefully to a revolution (bloody or not) and start from scratch. Rinse repeat.

But knowing how high the standard of living is these days and the fact that most people are complacent, I'm not holding my breath for true "change" anytime soon.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
I can't speak for Bamacre, but I'd take that as a compliment coming from you.

If we fill the thread with such comments - the same can be said of my view of you - itd be filled with crap.

So let's not do that.

If you have something on-topic to say - your off-topic post above is all you have had to say - post that.

To alchemize: your post reflects your own delusion, not anything about my posts.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: JS80
Democracy is the enemy of Free Trade and Freedom. In a democracy 51% can vote to take from and oppress the minority 49%.

There are two problem (at least) with your statement.

1. That's why we have the legal structures, as I said previously, of constitutional rights and super-majority requirements to change them.

2. 51% (or 70% or 90%) are better for representing the interests of society than 0.1% are or 5% are, generally.

Unfortunately, even though a benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government that can provide the most freedoms, it can turn the other way and become oppressive.

No, it's not. Can one person s*sometimes* have a better postion than the majority? Yes. But as you say, that's not at all something you can count on.

We're re-debating here, with claims like yours, issues the founding fathers settled that the 'least bad' way to govern society is with the majority being the most trustable group.

With the caveats satated above to protect individual rights.

Is it imperfect? Of course, how many times have I pointed out ways our society has badly screwed up on violating rights, for minority races, the poor, women, gays, and many other times - and yet, then you look at the other system, and you look at the gradual progress we've had towards equality, and you can see why democracy is viewed as best.

So we settle for a Republic, which is a form of democracy with controls in place to make it difficult for the majority to take from the minority. However, recent history has shown that the Republic is not perfect and can become an effective democracy.

Yet better than your imagined 'benevolent dictatorship' much less the real thing.

It's the same basic process that the 'benevolent dictator' either has policies the public agrees with - in which case democracy would do the same thing - or policies he has to force on them against their will, creating increasing repression to protect his power, creating a situation democracy addresses.

The evolution of this government is a Republic that turns into an Obamaic Democracy where the majority oppress the minority and hopefully to a revolution (bloody or not) and start from scratch. Rinse repeat.

But knowing how high the standard of living is these days and the fact that most people are complacent, I'm not holding my breath for true "change" anytime soon.

There will never be another successful violent revolution in the US, as I said. That's why people need to do better at exercising their rights and responsibilities as citizens.

If they act like farm animals to serve a corporatocracy - that's the power they'll get.

One sad thing is, that if the people do ever get more politically organized to exercise that power, there's a good chance it'll be led by a demagogue with a worse agenda.

What we need instead is simply for the public to get better informed - I've many times posted ways to do that - and to push for a healthier democracy.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Craig234
1. That's why we have the legal structures, as I said previously, of constitutional rights and super-majority requirements to change them.

2. 51% (or 70% or 90%) are better for representing the interests of society than 0.1% are or 5% are, generally.


You are contradicting yourself here. You seem to suggest that the minority are protected from the majority, yet then suggest that the majority better represents the interest of society. Of course, the majority get to decide what is best for society, no? At the expense of the minority, no?

You seem to believe that "society" has rights. I find this contradictory to my belief that only individuals have rights.
 
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