Free Vegetarian Starter Pack

[Sesopedalian]

"it is not possible to be *optimally* well biologically and be a meat eater."

Wow! I have seen people couch their biased arguements in pseudo-science before, but that statement really shines through as an example.

The vegetarian crowd that says: "I am more healthy than you because you eat meat" have a dirty little secret. It is that there is NO scientific evidence that proves a healthy vegetarian diet is superior to a healthy diet which includes meat products. Vegetarians don't live longer either. I bet that really steams them! It's great to be a vegetarian, go ahead and be one, but don't claim you are any healthier or will live longer than those that include meat in their diet, because it is not true.

 

[Cleaner]

Alright Anthropology 101: Before the invention of the plow in 10,000 bc man was growing taller and living longer than his ancestors. This was cause by a diet consisting mainly of meat and supplemented with nuts/berries/vegatables. A typical hunter/gatherer society. With the invention of the plow comes a change in the diet of these people to a mainly grain or wheat diet. At this time, post 10,000 bc, we see a DECLINE in the average lifespan of these civilized peoples. When I say civilized I mean communities who are no longer migratory. We also see a sharp decrease in the average heigth of these people. Changing to a diet consisting of grains takes far more grains (carbs) to equal the same amount of meat (protein). Thus they have to eat larger amounts of them. They aren't intaking the equivalent numbers of calories as their ancestors and thus live shorter and ARE shorter. The average height of men and women during Roman times, 235 bc to 415 ad, was 4' 11' for men and 4' 4" or so, they ate mostly grains. However the Gauls and Visogoths, their barbarian neighbors who subsisted off of a meat (mostly chicken) diet were closer to our current heights in averages (~= 6' 0"). A history lesson for those less informed.

Secondly, someone mentioned earlier that Britain outlawed factory farmed animals because it was inhumane. No they outlawed it to protect their own cattle industry. If Britain allows factory farmed animals then they are open to the importation of American Cattle. However if they close it then they protect British cattle farmers and help their trade deficit. Britain exports a large amount of Beef to the other European countries who also ban factory farmed animal products. In fact MOST European countries do not even allow the production of foods containing preservatives, Germany for instance. This makes them immune to American imported food stuffs. Thus they selfcreate a need for locally produced goods. That's why the local market is so popular in Europe and why its NOT in America.

Third I'm into Bodybuilding and while most protein supplements are made with soy protein I haven't met a single Vegan Bodybuilder. Their diets just can't compete on the level with meat eaters in muscle growth and production. Beef and other red meats naturally contain Creatine and other ATP catalysts, soy doesn't, nor does fish. Vegan might maintain thier current amount of musclulature but they won't be growing anytime soon.

Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to lay out some facts and opinions. Thanks.

 

[Justincase]

LOL Sesopedalian.

TENS OF THOUSANDS of studies say otherwise.


I keep thinking that if this were 1492 and I were telling you that the world is round, y'all would be telling me that there is no proof, so it must be flat.

 

[bluemax]

Here's another fun fact:

The body needs a small amount of cholesterol to survive.
The body CREATES a small amount of cholesterol, as needed.
Too much cholesterol will kill you.
Cholesterol is found ONLY in animal tissue, not in a single plant.
hmmmm.....

 

[Fritzo]

You know the hardest part about eating a vegetable?

The wheelchair!


<condemed>oh man...I am SO going to hell </condemed>

 

[Sesopedalian]

Justincase - If it's proof you really want, stop reading the "scientific" studies you find in "veggie today" magazine, and just open your eyes. Every professional athlete career depends on being the most physically fit, and the healthiest. Most of them look for any edge, any small measure, to perform better, faster. The top performers in EVERY sport are the healthiest and fittest.

Now, check to see how many are vegetarians. Whoops, looks like we hit a BIG snag here, doesn't it? Guess you know more about health, fitness, and diet than they do, huh? Maybe you should notify the International Olympic Committee before the games in Athens with your secret vegetarian diet! LOL right back at you!

Reminds me of what John McEnroe said when he was asked why professional tennis players don't wear sunglasses. He said: "Well, if it helped us to see the ball better, we would."

 

[CPA]

<< >>>Just curious, but do you know something the rest of us don't. You seem to be implying that there will be this huge 180 degree change in people's minds regarding meat.<<<

I believe there will be a major change in the production/availability of meat in the future.


>>>I do like lean hamburgers, bacon, eat chicken daily and fish 3 to 4 times a week. And for those that think the type of food leads to leanness and other benficial factors to healthy living, I counter with it's the frequency and calorie consumption, not just the type that leads to healthy living.<<<

That's conventional wisdom, but conventional wisdom is not always correct. Regarding the last part of your statement, I know for a fact that there are people that have been put on a very healthy vegetarian diet and fed 8,000 calories per day, and have lost tons of weight (including 1 guy that lost over 400 pounds; I kid you not). [I'm pretty sure that when they finish reconstructing the site and re-linking the searchable health articles, Garynull.com will have that information back online].

Regarding the first part of your statement...the scientific/medical literature is filled with overwhelming evidence is that while it is of course possible to be a meat eater and not exhibit any *outward* signs of disease...it is not possible to be *optimally* well biologically and be a meat eater. >>




It is not conventional wisdom, it is fact. If you look a little further in my statement I eat 6 time at 250 to 500 calories a setting. That is between 1500 and 3000 calories a day. To lose weight I would need to adjust my calorie intake by a reduction of 500 calories and to increase weight I would need to increase calorie intake about 500. It doesn't matter what type of food I eat to reduce, the fact is if you reduce calories you will lose weight, be it vegetarian calories or totally meat-eating calories. Calories + activity = weight movement; type of foods does not equal weight movement.

 

[Justincase]

>>>Justincase - If it's proof you really want, stop reading the "scientific" studies you find in "veggie today" magazine<<<

I have never seen nor read a copy of "veggie today"; in fact, I read no magazines. No, what I meant, and should have made more clear, were studies cited in The New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, The British Medical Journal, the journal Cancer, and similar mainstream medical publications. The info is there for those that choose to read it.


>>>The top performers in EVERY sport are the healthiest and fittest. Now, check to see how many are vegetarians. Whoops, looks like we hit a BIG snag here, doesn't it?<<<

Maybe it is you that has hit a snag. On the contrary, there are MANY top athletes that are vegetarians.

Ever heard of Joe Namath, football player, vegetarian?

No?...then maybe you've heard of Carl Lewis, Olympic track star, vegan.

Does that name ring a bell? No? How about...

Edwin Moses,[/b] Olympic champion, vegetarian
Leroy Burrell,[/b] Olympic champion, vegetarian
Murray Rose,[/b] Olympic swimmer, vegetarian
Bill Manetti,[/b] powerlifting champion, vegetarian
Martina Navratilova,[/b] tennis player, vegan
Billy Jean King,[/b] tennis player, vegetarian
Peter Burwash,[/b] Tennis champion, vegan
Debbie Lawrence,[/b] 5k record holder, vegetarian
Dave Scott,[/b] 6-time Ironman Triathlon, Vegan
Lucy Stephens,[/b] tri-athlete, vegan
Andreas Cahling,[/b] International Bodybuilder, vegetarian
Stan Price,[/b] world record bench press, vegetarian
Pat Reeves,[/b] power lifter, vegan
Ruth Heidrich,[/b] 3 time Ironman, vegan
Sally Eastall,[/b] Marathon runner, vegan
Gary Null, Ph.D.,[/b] winner of countless racewalking and running competitions, vegan
Laban Pheidas,[/b] proskater, vegetarian
Peter Brock,[/b] race car driver, vegan
Hank Aaron,[/b] baseball player, vegetarian
Jim Kaat,[/b] baseball player, vegetarian
John Salley,[/b] Toronto Raptors, vegetarian
Lawrence Philips,[/b] 49ers football player, vegetarian
Anthony Peeler,[/b] Minnesota Timberwolves, vegetarian
Robert Parnish,[/b] basketball (Bulls center), vegetarian
Gary Player,[/b] golfer, vegetarian

And the following, which also require some athletic ability....

Brad Staba,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegetarian
Brian Sumner,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegetarian 
Brian Anderson,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegetarian
Forest Kirby,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegetarian
Ed Templeton,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegan
Chris Lambert,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegetarian
Geoff Rowley,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegan
Matt Field,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegetarian
Jamie Thomas,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegan
Moses Itkonen,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegan
Rick Mc Crank,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegetarian
Sergei Trudnowski,[/b] pro skateboarder, vegan

There are MANY more, but I think you get the idea...or maybe not :Q

Now a pop quiz:

Are there in fact any top athletes that are vegetarians? :Q

Finally, an ironic piece of useless trivia:
Geoffrey Giuliano, who plays Ronald McDonald on TV, is a vegetarian in real life.

 

[Cleaner]

The big question is were they raised vegan or are they NOW vegans. That is the essential question. All these athletes may be vegans now but if they were raised like normal meat eating people then they already gained the benefits of a meat diet for muscle developement and growth. If they were raised vegan and still became body building champions or profootball players then you have strong support for your case. However I don't think they were. They probably changed to vegan recently ( last 10 years or less). By this time they've already benefited physically from their meat diets.

Now not to slam skateboarders, I was one in high school. But skateboarding isn't a sport that requires large amounts of muscles to perform, i.e. football/weight lifting. It requires a better sense of balance than the other guy. This 'skill' has nothing to do with the diet you eat. In fact most skateboarders ARE skinny and if they are vegan than this supports my arguement that vegans can't produce muscle mass.

Now for someone's rebuttal. Thanks.

 

[Justincase]

>>>vegans can't produce muscle mass.<<<

No offense - you may have read that somewhere, and I realize that MANY other people believe that, but it is incorrect. I have spent way too much time in this thread today, and have to do other things now, but I'll briefly suggest that you look up the book "The Egg Project" and the product "Muscle" (check out the outstanding ingredient list on THAT product)...yes, with proper food combining, exercise, and NO animal protein, it is possible to be both muscular and optimally well.

I guess I'll be back later for more abuse and punishment :Q

 

[jimbeam]

People can obviously survive with or without meat in their diets. I personally believe it's easier to be healthy on a vegetable based diet. But what it really comes down to for me is this: I don't kill because I don't need to kill.

Anyway.. I'm surprised this "hot deal" has survived lockage thus far.

 

[Sesopedalian]

Pro skateboarders? You left out Pro Fisherman and Pro Bowlers! Your short list only proves there are not many but only a very few. If vegetarianism was the answer to good health and better athletic performance, almost every world class athlete would have that diet. The majority of them do not. I know this confuses the hell out of the vegan crowd, but this real-world proof is self-evident. You don't have to consult the New England Journal of Medicine to figure THAT out.

 

[bluemax]

I see a problem trend here - because something doesn't kill you overnight "it doesn't kill you." Same could be said for smoking or alcohol, refined sugar or drugs.

A more serious problem is underlying here. It's not so much the "eating of meat" that's bad - it's the condition is which you GET that meat.
An animal doesn't just die to be eaten, it suffers a lifetime of torture - birds kept 5-6 to a cage with no room to lift a wing, their feathers so rubbed by the cage walls their feathers are pulled off and skin cut. They are starved and dyhdrated purposely (force-molting) in order to make them produce eggs year-round. While in the farm and in such tight conditions, disease is rampant. Animals get NO treatement. Period. The die where they are caged. In order to combat disease, the animals are constantly fed antibiotics and growth hormones and sprayed with chemicals and other antibiotics. (you want to eat that?) On the truck to the slaughterhouse, they're packed even tighter and suffer from whatever weather conditions are for the trip. No food or water, of course. The animals that survive the trip are not killed right away either, but hung and stunned (at best) so they can be cut and bled while still alive - this keeps the animals "fresher" longer so they can make it to the grocery store before it turns completely toxic.

All meat production for restaurants and grocery stores is done this way to keep production costs low, and profits high.

If I lived on a farm and kept a henhouse I don't think it would be so bad to eat a few eggs and maybe the occasional chicken - healthwise.
The main issue is I know these animals aren't tortured for weeks or months at a time.
And because they are being kept under sanitary conditions, the edibility is much higher. Factory animals are rampant with cancers and disease because of gene-splicing, their diet of antibiotics/hormones and horrible living conditions.


Then again, it seems some people are immune to "humanity" and feel no effects for suffering. One of my brother-in-laws works for Maple Leaf Foods, sees pigs being killed often (although he works butchering them), gets paid crappy wages like the others, gets treated like crap, yet still eats the same pork regularly. How many others on here know full well what these animals suffer and yet still savour a big, meaty, something?
It's programmed into us from the media - It's what's for dinner! - and even I feel the desire, once in a while, for a burger or steak when I pass a restaurant. It's been burned into my brain by advertisers - "It's good for you! Mmm-mmm!" and I have to literally fight it off with the knowledge of how it got to the plate.

 

[bluemax]

Sesopedalian - I get the feeling that you (and many others) would refuse to belive even if Justincase quoted you a thousand more names or pro-athletes. I know a few guys who go to my church who love workin' out at the gym. They're total vegetarians and -believe me- I only WISH I could attain the muscle-mass these guys have! Whew... Good thing my wife loves me even if I am on the lanky side. Sure beats being pudgy! 'Course I'd better be careful to avoid too much sugar in my diet... that's the only thing besides lack of heavy excercise keeping me from being really "fit".

In terms of fitness, a smoking carnivore who gets strenuous, constant exercise could be healthier than the vegetarian couch-potato.

 

[Mong0]

<SARCASM>
Yeah for PETA
</SARCASM>

I may have been interested in getting this pack but as soon as I saw it came from PETA, NO WAY IN HELL.

 

[mss242]

Damn justincase, you nailed that guy with the athlete argument. Nice job.

 

[mss242]

cleaner, why do you think vegans can't produce muscle mass? All one needs to increase muscle mass is complete proteins. Animal proteins are complete proteins, unlike most plant proteins. All one would have to do is pair the proper vegetables to match the amino acids that we can't produce. For example, both kidney beans and corn are incomplete proteins, but if one were to put them together then one can form complete proteins. Also, soy protein is complete. Even if all of this doesn't convince, I went from curling 35 lbs to curling 100 lbs being vegan the entire time. Don't most body builders drink protein shakes anyway? I am pretty sure most of that is soy protein.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Wow, I didnt think the thread would get this big.

As for my story since people seem to be telling theirs here well:

I was always the little fat kid that everybody made fun of in school. Towards the end of 10th grade I was very close to 200lbs. I am only about 5'9''.
I have always been very active but that didnt seem to change anything. That year I played BOTH soccer and football and did a ton of exercising. When football and soccer ended, I continued to exercise and started eating a little better. I started to loose weight and continued to keep it off. I have never been a big meat eater and one day I pondered to myself that I might try going w/o it for a year. About 2 months into that I decided to drop out all animal products. I will never go back. I have read to many things and now I continue my diet not just to look good but because I dont like the way some animals are treated and find that food disgusting now.

Over the past 1 3/4 years or so I have lost about 65lbs and have pretty much leveled off at the 135 range. I find it hard going out with friends because they think im weird and the food I love, like tofu for example, is sick. I try to encourage people to try what I have done and I have influenced my mom some.

Oz

 

[JustMichael]

I just have one thing to say, BBQ!!!!!!!

 

[Ozmodiar]

why not???

Ill bring the soy burgers

 

[bluemax]

I just thought of something... a way we can all win here.

If you think going vegetarian or even just having a few vegetarian recipes around the house so you're not eating meat ALL the time- get the kit. Why not, it's free?

If you really don't like PETA because their methods suck (and they do) then sign up for the kit. Why? it will cost them money to send it to you! It's like you're taking five bucks out of their pockets. Tell me that wouldn't feel good.
Do what you will with the kit - but you may find a recipe or two that might taste pretty good, too. Don't have to eat meat for EVERY meal, after all.

Everyone wins, right?

 

[skylark]

<< My girlfriend is a vegetarian...so I am too on most nights (since we always cook & eat together), however some of that PETA stuff irritates the hell out of me. Animals have been eating other animals for about 3 billion years now. Suddenly in the last 50-100 years somebody decides it's morally wrong? Here's a quote from the PETA site offering the vegetarian starter kit:

In his or her lifetime, the average American meat-eater is responsible for the abuse and deaths of some 2,400 animals, including approximately 2,287 chickens, 92 turkeys, 31 pigs, and 12 steers and calves.

What about the lifetime of most tigers and lions? Should we chastise them too? Over my lifetime, I'll also be responsible for the deaths of countless mosquitos, but I don't see anyone shedding any tears for them.

Nothing against vegetarians, I just get irritated when other people stand on a pedestal and start casting shame on me. >>



What kind of kindergarten arguments are these?! The animal kingdom diet habits are formed from evolution and habitats. A tiger can't all of sudden eat plants when it's digestive system and teeth are geared for meat --- it's natural instincts are to hunt for food not forage!

Did you even looked at the vids? This is what vegans are protesting about: inhumane treatment. It's appalling what corporate greed-mongering business will do for a buck...

 

[skylark]

<< I see a problem trend here - because something doesn't kill you overnight "it doesn't kill you." Same could be said for smoking or alcohol, refined sugar or drugs.

A more serious problem is underlying here. It's not so much the "eating of meat" that's bad - it's the condition is which you GET that meat.
An animal doesn't just die to be eaten, it suffers a lifetime of torture - birds kept 5-6 to a cage with no room to lift a wing, their feathers so rubbed by the cage walls their feathers are pulled off and skin cut. They are starved and dyhdrated purposely (force-molting) in order to make them produce eggs year-round. While in the farm and in such tight conditions, disease is rampant. Animals get NO treatement. Period. The die where they are caged. In order to combat disease, the animals are constantly fed antibiotics and growth hormones and sprayed with chemicals and other antibiotics. (you want to eat that?) On the truck to the slaughterhouse, they're packed even tighter and suffer from whatever weather conditions are for the trip. No food or water, of course. The animals that survive the trip are not killed right away either, but hung and stunned (at best) so they can be cut and bled while still alive - this keeps the animals "fresher" longer so they can make it to the grocery store before it turns completely toxic.

All meat production for restaurants and grocery stores is done this way to keep production costs low, and profits high.

If I lived on a farm and kept a henhouse I don't think it would be so bad to eat a few eggs and maybe the occasional chicken - healthwise.
The main issue is I know these animals aren't tortured for weeks or months at a time.
And because they are being kept under sanitary conditions, the edibility is much higher. Factory animals are rampant with cancers and disease because of gene-splicing, their diet of antibiotics/hormones and horrible living conditions.


Then again, it seems some people are immune to "humanity" and feel no effects for suffering. One of my brother-in-laws works for Maple Leaf Foods, sees pigs being killed often (although he works butchering them), gets paid crappy wages like the others, gets treated like crap, yet still eats the same pork regularly. How many others on here know full well what these animals suffer and yet still savour a big, meaty, something?
It's programmed into us from the media - It's what's for dinner! - and even I feel the desire, once in a while, for a burger or steak when I pass a restaurant. It's been burned into my brain by advertisers - "It's good for you! Mmm-mmm!" and I have to literally fight it off with the knowledge of how it got to the plate. >>



I notice I don't eat meat that much. I get the occasional crave.. Plus, I'm from cattle country, and I'm sure the treatment standards are better than the States. Back a year ago when I went to BC, I could smell the cow patties. Pee yoo!

Iif you were a purists, you could grow your own food. One advanced method is Aquaponics / Aquaculture / Bioponics. The system is indoor utitlizing fish and plants to grow together in a synergistic relationship. This could easily be done in commercial environments.. It's safer, cleaner, environmentally-friendly, and more efficient.

 

[SpongeBobPalmBay]

Shopped at a hippy store with my friend a few years ago - EXPENSIVE! Spent close to $150. Soap $5, shampoo $8, apples $3 a pound, tofu - yuck!

Plus it all gave me the poopies.

 

[figgypower]

No offense intended, just a curious meat eater:

Why is it wrong to kill animals? I understand moral issues, but where does it say in any sacred text that it's wrong to kill animals (I'm sure
someone will find something to prove me wrong... no sarcasm intended). I can see personal ethical issues with killing animals, but I
see no moral reasons. I also understand that we're quite a threat to the food chain, and I agree that meat consumption should at least be
controlled, but is it right or healthy to wipe it out from out diets? And, so what if we're no longer part of the food chain? Also, the idea that
we are "above" animals is an old Victorian-style thought. Most current thought, arising from science, insists we're just another bunch of animals.
It's just that we have a better capability to control ourselves, but we're not somehow morally superior. Our capability to control ourselves has
added more dangerous powers to harm. We still kill one another, feel jealous, incite wars, steal, etc. As far as bloodshed goes, we're
probably one of the most violent animals in existence. Will getting rid of meat from our diets somehow help that? I really doubt it. Also, yes
we kill our animals in the most efficient way we know - animal factories. If animals cannot reason or hold moral objections, why would they
care for their civil rights of a death that is not cruel and unusual? But, yes, I agree that animal factories are, while efficient killing machines,
enivornmentally disastrous. Animals are just harvested like any other resource... why not plant rights? I see definite reasons for limiting meat
intake, but why get rid of it entirely?