Free Weight Vs. Machines- A Discussion

[z1ggy]

I can't find any good articles while I'm behind the firewall here at work. I'll have to find some later at home.

But I wanted to have a discussion on free weight vs machine (or other resistance) in relation to body building. Obviously, no power lifter really trains on a machine. I've noticed lately that since I'm really starting to focus purely on building mass and improving my physique, and focusing on strength as a secondary gain, I am using more resistance bands or machines for my isolation movements, over free weight. Hear me out for a second.

Things like my squat, DL, bench, will never ever be replaced. However, I've completely abandoned dumbbell chest flies and lateral side raises with dumbbells. It's purely for 2 reasons: 1) Those two movements are not ideal and safe for your joints. Ask any physical therapist (I have.. They aren't great for your shoulder joint) and 2) time under tension. #2 is the big one for me. When I use free weights for my side raises to hit my medial delt, I feel like once I get past a certain point in the eccentric part of the motion, I no longer and putting a load on my delt. When I use one of the cable pulley stacks and position myself at the right angle, I have constant tension coming from a proper angle through out the entire movement.

Overall, I still use free weight for like 80-90% of my lifts. However, I do think machines or even resistance bands are sometimes on par or sometimes superior to free weight, especially if you aren't experienced and form may not be perfect.

Feel free to link scientific articles supporting your stance. I doubt this thread will gain much traction but it's been a thought on my mind lately.

 

[RagingBITCH]

I think you said it best here: "I am using more resistance bands or machines for my isolation movements, over free weight"

I think it's fairly difficult if not impossible to isolate something specific with your compound movements/bread and butter. You get better control and precision with the bands vs free weights. In your particular case, dumbbells. With the assumption that you are using that machine or pulley/resistance band for a specific reason, then yes, they can be superior.

I myself have had running related injuries the past 2 year - stress fracture, tendonitis, and over the past 10 months, patella chondromalecia. I've seen multiple PT's and sports chiropractors. Much like your experience, they'll utilize machines, bands, or pulleys more for the fact that we're trying to isolate or target specific things to shore up weaknesses.

One thing I think that may need to be separated here is bad exercises as a whole vs machines/free weight discussion. Much like people used to do behind the neck pull-downs and sit-ups, science has found pull-ups and bicycle/plank as more effective exercises.

(And no, I don't have any articles/scientific evidence to back anything up here - just saying that cables/machines have their uses - nothing wrong with it, unless you're trying to use it to replace free weights as a whole)

 

[nickqt]

Free weights are more efficient than machines.

You're not only working out the targeted muscles when you lift with free weights, but you also work out your antagonist and stabilizer muscles, which you use to keep a free weight steady and level.

Often, machines do that work for you.

 

[Sixguns]

I prefer free weights but as long as you are doing something I thing its good.

 

[Zivic]

for things like deads, squats, bench free weights will be better. as you move into arm curls, leg curls; things of that nature I feel cables and machines 'can' be better.

for example, moving a free weight through an arm curl motion isn't a consistent resistance . You have areas of more resistance as you move through the arc.

at the end of the day, your consistency is what matters most. There are better ways to train, but realistically if you are working hard and doing the proper things outside the gym, whether or not you use free weights or machines isn't going to limit a person getting where the want to be-> in what 99% of people want out of working out.

for some, it can be a matter of using machines due to injury and they will allow them to continue training.

 

[SP33Demon]

Like you said for powerlifting, it's not ideal to use pulley machines. A good example is the tri's, watch Kaz' clinic on benchpressing where he explains using the tri pushdown pulleys to only warm up the muscle. For full overload, he's using the decline bench (dumbbell I think) which is less pressure on your elbows since other muscle groups are engaged.

I will say for accessory movements we do occasionally use machines like heavy leg curls, but they're mostly gathering dust unless someone is rehabbing from injury.

 

[z1ggy]

Yeah, when I was thinking about this the other day, I noticed that when I was in my strength training phase maybe 6 months ago... I really didn't use machines ever. I was only doing a few basic compound movements, all free weight.

Now that I'm focusing more on aesthetics and getting in volume, I use machines more than I used to, mainly for isolation. I generally do 3-4 exercises per muscle, and the first 1 or 2 is usually free weight, but the last 1 or 2 is usually machine. I like machines at times because I feel that constant resistance let's me really go slow, and focus on the eccentric part of my rep.

Anyway, I've been pretty busy lately and I haven't had time to post any articles. I'd be interested in seeing a group study where group A does only bicep curls with dumbbells, and group B with a cable machine. I'd be curious to see which group gained more muscle/strength. Could be any muscle group, but I think isolation moves would be the most interesting to see. I think compound movements are hands down going to be better using free weight.

 

[smackababy]

My problem with machines (non cable ones, at least) is the forced range of motion is not always ideal for your body. Plus, you lose a lot of stability even in isolation.

 

[Zivic]

Anyway, I've been pretty busy lately and I haven't had time to post any articles. I'd be interested in seeing a group study where group A does only bicep curls with dumbbells, and group B with a cable machine. I'd be curious to see which group gained more muscle/strength.

IMHO, studies like that aren't telling how you will respond. Too many variables outside of the cables/free weights... and honestly, doubt you will see much of a difference if all other variables were the same. The training isn't really the most significant factor in gaining muscle and/or strength.

I watch a lot of youtube 'gurus'. watch some of marc lobliner training. he trains hard, but it's painful to watch some of his lifts. form is so off, using swinging/momentum to move weights, poor ROM.... yet he has a respectable build. yes, he's using, but it just speaks to the fact that his consistency, hard work, effort, diet, genetics, and drugs all play a more important roll than whether you use machines or free weights.

 

[z1ggy]

My problem with machines (non cable ones, at least) is the forced range of motion is not always ideal for your body. Plus, you lose a lot of stability even in isolation.

Agreed. That's why I don't use "pressing" machines at all. I mainly only use the double stack cable machine because the pulley pivots a little bit. I mainly just like how I'm getting constant feed back, where with *some* free weight lifts, I don't.

IMHO, studies like that aren't telling how you will respond. Too many variables outside of the cables/free weights... and honestly, doubt you will see much of a difference if all other variables were the same. The training isn't really the most significant factor in gaining muscle and/or strength.

I watch a lot of youtube 'gurus'. watch some of marc lobliner training. he trains hard, but it's painful to watch some of his lifts. form is so off, using swinging/momentum to move weights, poor ROM.... yet he has a respectable build. yes, he's using, but it just speaks to the fact that his consistency, hard work, effort, diet, genetics, and drugs all play a more important roll than whether you use machines or free weights.

Agreed. I don't really watch those guys anymore, because it's kind of BS to me. They are the 1% of BBers who actually got really huge, and not because they followed all the "rules" of form, etc etc. Even old timey videos of Arnold lifting, show him using terrible form... But he got results.

Most of the videos I watch on bench, DL, and squat form are from Mark Bell. Every now and then, I'll watch some videos from this guy who runs a channel called Athlean-X, and purely because he's also a physical therapist, and I value that side of things. I've pretty much got the eating/cals/macro thing down now, so it's just a matter of staying in the gym and not stopping.

 

[Squeetard]

I use machines a lot. Free weights may be overall better as everyone says, but machines can:

Force you to do the exercise correctly and not cheat.

Reduce the risk of injury by being stable.

Allow me to get in more reps to failure without having a spotter.

 

[inachu]

If you are brand new to lifting and do not have a buddy to help spot you then the universal machines are a little more safer.

You get to feel the real weight with free weights.

So once you consider yourself "broken in" you can move over to free weights.

 

[smackababy]

If you are brand new to lifting and do not have a buddy to help spot you then the universal machines are a little more safer.

I have never been in a gym once where there wasn't someone else there who could spot me, if asked.

 

[SP33Demon]

I think a good rule of thumb is to use the cables to warm up/cool down/accessory but you're going to get the bulk of results with your heavy compound freeweight movements. Another example is that we use face pulls to warm up, and I'll do them in between bench sets to loosen up the shoulder and get more blood into them.

Some of the machines (like Hammer Strength brand) where you put the plates onto them (like sitting rows) are ok for overload as well. Anything with a cable is just for warming up though.

 

[Zivic]

Anything with a cable is just for warming up though.

Tell my biceps that

 

[Zivic]

or my lats



or my triceps

 

[SP33Demon]

For pure strength you don't need cables for maxing (although bodybuilding is fine since it's just light weight T.U.T. iso) for the simple fact that the body is limited by trunk strength. Good luck trying to do a tri pressdown with 300 lbs like a close grip bench (I do 315), it's not possible. Your abs/trunk can only stabilize so much past your bodyweight in the standing position, assuming the machine can even go that high - most cable stacks only go up to 2-300 and that's made even lighter due to the pulleys. For the average person, they may never go past this weight which means they will never increase their strength level and will continue to think they are "strong" because they are doing the entire stack of cable weight at the gym.

 

[Zivic]

For pure strength you don't need cables for maxing (although bodybuilding is fine since it's just light weight T.U.T. iso) for the simple fact that the body is limited by trunk strength. Good luck trying to do a tri pressdown with 300 lbs like a close grip bench (I do 315), it's not possible. Your abs/trunk can only stabilize so much past your bodyweight in the standing position, assuming the machine can even go that high - most cable stacks only go up to 2-300 and that's made even lighter due to the pulleys. For the average person, they may never go past this weight which means they will never increase their strength level and will continue to think they are "strong" because they are doing the entire stack of cable weight at the gym.

I'm plenty strong, as strong as I really care to be..... and I have been even stronger. I joke that I was stronger than most people would ever lie about being.

I am not impressed by a 315 bench, or even close grip bench. and not sure the comparison of a close grip bench and a pressdown. I have pretty massive tri's and I find the pressdowns are probably the best movement for me. does it matter if I do 120 lbs on the stack and not doing 3 plates on a close grip? no! it matters that I do 120 on the stack vs 90 or 100 on that stack. it matters that you do 3 plates and not 1 or 2 on the close grip.

I have been around the block with weight training. like I said before, there are a lot of other factors that matter a heck of a lot more than if you used a machine or free weights. I'll go further and state that most people's form and range of motion is so poor using free weights they might be better off using a machine; even in replacement of bench or squats

 

[SP33Demon]

I'm plenty strong, as strong as I really care to be..... and I have been even stronger. I joke that I was stronger than most people would ever lie about being.

I am not impressed by a 315 bench, or even close grip bench. and not sure the comparison of a close grip bench and a pressdown. I have pretty massive tri's and I find the pressdowns are probably the best movement for me. does it matter if I do 120 lbs on the stack and not doing 3 plates on a close grip? no! it matters that I do 120 on the stack vs 90 or 100 on that stack. it matters that you do 3 plates and not 1 or 2 on the close grip.

I have been around the block with weight training. like I said before, there are a lot of other factors that matter a heck of a lot more than if you used a machine or free weights. I'll go further and state that most people's form and range of motion is so poor using free weights they might be better off using a machine; even in replacement of bench or squats

Close grip bench is going to make your bench go up more than a tri pressdown, it's silly to even argue this. A bigger bench = more overall functional strength. You may have "massive tri's" but that doesn't mean you can even do a 350 or even a 315 close grip bench rep. Size doesn't always equal strength, especially in the bodybuilding arena - otherwise most bodybuilders would be dominating powerlifting meets (which they don't).

My ideal setup would be a decline bench overload as well as an EZ bar to overload the tri's like Kaz explains in this video (also pay attention to where he explains the cable tri pressdown is limited to trunk strength):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cLWW3VumAzE#t=805

Kaz is right that close grip bench does use a lot of pec and delt so it's not going to target the tri's as well as a decline bench overload would. However, it's still way better than doing a heavy cable pressdown.

 

[Zivic]

Close grip bench is going to make your bench go up more than a tri pressdown, it's silly to even argue this. A bigger bench = more overall functional strength. You may have "massive tri's" but that doesn't mean you can even do a 350 or even a 315 close grip bench rep. Size doesn't always equal strength, especially in the bodybuilding arena - otherwise most bodybuilders would be dominating powerlifting meets (which they don't).

My ideal setup would be a decline bench overload as well as an EZ bar to overload the tri's like Kaz explains in this video (also pay attention to where he explains the cable tri pressdown is limited to trunk strength):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cLWW3VumAzE#t=805

Kaz is right that close grip bench does use a lot of pec and delt so it's not going to target the tri's as well as a decline bench overload would. However, it's still way better than doing a heavy cable pressdown.

I could careless how much I bench. I have repped 315 for close grip enough to know it isn't anything to brag about.

When I want to overload my Tris my go to lift is not close grip

 

[z1ggy]

Lately I've been doing my close grip work using DBs, and going with a neutral grip, holding them close to my body. I just can't do CG on bench anymore.. It's killing my wrists. I could try the EZ bar on the decline bench like suggested... Just need a spotter to give and take the weight away for me.

As for Zivic's point though, I do feel the most "intense" tricep pump from doing push downs. I feel like I get tension on my muscle on the entire ROM, and I can get a good iso hold at the bottom.

 

[Zivic]

I just can't do CG on bench anymore.. It's killing my wrists. I could try the EZ bar on the decline bench like suggested...

try a wider grip if it is causing wrist pain.

 

[SP33Demon]

Lately I've been doing my close grip work using DBs, and going with a neutral grip, holding them close to my body. I just can't do CG on bench anymore.. It's killing my wrists. I could try the EZ bar on the decline bench like suggested... Just need a spotter to give and take the weight away for me.

As for Zivic's point though, I do feel the most "intense" tricep pump from doing push downs. I feel like I get tension on my muscle on the entire ROM, and I can get a good iso hold at the bottom.

A pump does not necessarily translate to functional strength. I can pump my calves all day but it's not going to help my deadlift more than heavy reps of deads. Similarly, you're not going to need huge heads on all 3 parts of the tri's to bench 350, they will grow as the needed resistance increases. While it's good to do accessory work, be sure that you're efficient with your time for your goals. For example, I'm not going to do cable rows when I can do barbell rows which translates to the deadlift a helluva lot more. If I'm bodybuilding, then maybe I would do lighter weight cable rows to work on a weakness.

Regarding the EZ bar, you can do that on a normal bench (doesn't have to be on a decline) since you're not locking it out. It's short half movement nose breaker/close grip BP where your biceps/forearms can slow the momentum and take some pressure off the elbows. Try some lighter weight to get the movement down before going heavy. As for regular decline overload, it's effective for tri's because it's taking some regular delt/pectoral recruitment out of the movement which will activate the tri's more. Another thing I'll do (if I don't have weights) is to do many pushups with a slingshot, which forces your triceps to work much harder since it takes a good deal of delt out of the movement.

 

[Zivic]

A pump does not necessarily translate to functional strength. I can pump my calves all day but it's not going to help my deadlift more than heavy reps of deads. Similarly, you're not going to need huge heads on all 3 parts of the tri's to bench 350, they will grow as the needed resistance increases. While it's good to do accessory work, be sure that you're efficient with your time for your goals. For example, I'm not going to do cable rows when I can do barbell rows which translates to the deadlift a helluva lot more. If I'm bodybuilding, then maybe I would do lighter weight cable rows to work on a weakness.

Regarding the EZ bar, you can do that on a normal bench (doesn't have to be on a decline) since you're not locking it out. It's short half movement nose breaker/close grip BP where your biceps/forearms can slow the momentum and take some pressure off the elbows. Try some lighter weight to get the movement down before going heavy. As for regular decline overload, it's effective for tri's because it's taking some regular delt/pectoral recruitment out of the movement which will activate the tri's more. Another thing I'll do (if I don't have weights) is to do many pushups with a slingshot, which forces your triceps to work much harder since it takes a good deal of delt out of the movement.

you don't need huge anything to bench 350. If your goal is strength, 350 is chump change...

my whole point here is for 99.9999% of people it makes no damn difference if they train machines or free weights. obviously if one's goal is to have a bigger free weight bench, they will have to do free weight bench.

I have lifted more weight than 99.9999% of people, while great and all, it is overrated. Who gives two sh!ts what you can bench if it's harder for you to situp after doing so? Too much focus on the weight is not a good thing. Even your boy mark bell (sling shot guy) finally said enough is enough and leaned out, but he is on gear, so that adds another variable that may not be relevant to the discussion.

maybe it's my arrogance, but if all you care about is your bench (or squat, or dead) then I consider you a novice lifter and have a lot to learn about weight training. Machines/cables and free weights all have their place and both have their advantages. I don't solely rely on either one for my overall muscle development. For certain things, I favor free weights. For other things, cables and machines are better.

I guess when you move more weight than I have, or built a bigger/leaner physique than I have your input will mean a little something more than it does now.

 

[SP33Demon]

you don't need huge anything to bench 350. If your goal is strength, 350 is chump change...

my whole point here is for 99.9999% of people it makes no damn difference if they train machines or free weights. obviously if one's goal is to have a bigger free weight bench, they will have to do free weight bench.

I have lifted more weight than 99.9999% of people, while great and all, it is overrated. Who gives two sh!ts what you can bench if it's harder for you to situp after doing so? Too much focus on the weight is not a good thing. Even your boy mark bell (sling shot guy) finally said enough is enough and leaned out, but he is on gear, so that adds another variable that may not be relevant to the discussion.

maybe it's my arrogance, but if all you care about is your bench (or squat, or dead) then I consider you a novice lifter and have a lot to learn about weight training. Machines/cables and free weights all have their place and both have their advantages. I don't solely rely on either one for my overall muscle development. For certain things, I favor free weights. For other things, cables and machines are better.

I guess when you move more weight than I have, or built a bigger/leaner physique than I have your input will mean a little something more than it does now.

350 pause benchpress is nothing? People @200lbs, let's see how many in the country can do it. At 2014 USAPL Nationals in Colorado, 21 out of 78 who competed at 90kg could do at least 350 - this is the best of the best in the country. That's 27%. You should show em how it's done big boy. You weigh around 200. Go show em how strong you are. The only problem with this is even if you could pull off a 350 pause bench, you'd be embarrassed in the other 2 lifts.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JkOGUpETIAILjSvnFhmOMb8Hud5IlGdveJXt43USB7g/edit#gid=0

Nothing with a cable will ever replace the big 3. Bodybuilding is where strength athletes go to retire and talk about the good old days when they could bench 350, or squat or deadlift 500. It's all talk.