Free will? Who cares?

[woolfe9998]

Could be. Anything is possible at this point I suppose. Its not like its exactly a settled issue. I lean hard toward free will being illusory. Its an illusion because it seems very much like we have it.
When you decide what to have for desert, and you choose chocolate cake, I may ask you why you chose that and you might say "because it just sounded good". Why did it sound good over the other choices? Did it just happen and you became aware of it? Or did you consciously choose to like chocolate more at that point in time?
I would argue that your choice to eat chocolate had nothing to do with free will.

Try a different example, one which is less convenient for proving the hypothesis you're putting forth here. For example, a software engineer writing lines of code. How does he choose which code to write next? I can guaranty it doesn't come from the sub-conscious or from "instinct."

I think two issues are being conflated here. The first is whether our actions are entirely controlled by instinct. The answer to that question is clearly "no." Instinct simply cannot account for all the complex decisions we make which require a conscious intellectual process. Instinct, by way of the sub-conscious as well as conscious emotion, is strongly influential to our behavior. It is not and cannot be the sole determinate. If it was, all this stuff you see around you, including the computer you used to create this thread, would not exist. Everything human civilization has created can't possibly be the result of instinct and/or sub-conscious edicts.

The second question is whether we have "free will" in the abstract philosophical sense. Of course, a conscious choice involving cognition can still be pre-ordained by cause and effect. Perhaps it is all determinism. However, the question is abstract and quite frankly has no bearing on anything which matters to human beings.

It is the first question that raises important concerns about criminal justice and a myriad of other issues.

 

[moonbogg]

Try a different example, one which is less convenient for proving the hypothesis you're putting forth here. For example, a software engineer writing lines of code. How does he choose which code to write next? I can guaranty it doesn't come from the sub-conscious or from "instinct."

I think two issues are being conflated here. The first is whether our actions are entirely controlled by instinct. The answer to that question is clearly "no." Instinct simply cannot account for all the complex decisions we make which require a conscious intellectual process. Instinct, by way of the sub-conscious as well as conscious emotion, is strongly influential to our behavior. It is not and cannot be the sole determinate. If it was, all this stuff you see around you, including the computer you used to create this thread, would not exist. Everything human civilization has created can't possibly be the result of instinct and/or sub-conscious edicts.

The second question is whether we have "free will" in the abstract philosophical sense. Of course, a conscious choice involving cognition can still be pre-ordained by cause and effect. Perhaps it is all determinism. However, the question is abstract and quite frankly has no bearing on anything which matters to human beings.

It is the first question that raises important concerns about criminal justice and a myriad of other issues.

Regarding your first paragraph, are you sure? Look at it like this. Consciousness is like eye sight. You can only focus on a very small area at any one time, the rest is blurry. When you are doing something like playing football and you are running and are about to catch the ball, what happens? Your eye sight focuses on the ball like a laser beam, and so does your consciousness. You are mentally processing so many things at the same time that you couldn't possible be aware of all of them, like the guy trying to block the pass, the speed and direction he is running with respect to you, the trajectory of the ball, other players on the field who will try to tackle you, it all gets processed automatically without you having to try. If you stopped and tried to actually think about any one of these things consciously, it would cripple you.
My experience writing code is very limited, but I remember it. I had a goal I was trying to achieve to create a user menu for a CAD program and there were countless variables involved. I could have done things in so many different ways, how could I have ever reached a final decision in any of that? I didn't, because the final decision was processed in my mind as the best one, it rose up to my awareness and I thought to myself, "ah yes, that's it. I got it now". Isn't that how it always works? You think about something and then when a good idea "comes up" you get that excited feeling, like a quick little rush of adrenaline, and you say to yourself, "I got it!" But what is it that you got? Did your aware mind consciously process every facet of the challenge? Or did you brain process TONS of information that you couldn't possibly be aware of, and then toss up the best conclusion to your awareness for its stamp of approval?

 

[DaveSimmons]

> football

That's still not instinct in the sense of something you were born with. It's learned patterns based on training, experience and thought. The "muscle memory" of a martial arts master isn't instinct, it's the product of thousands of hours of training. And Chess masters might not be doing depth-first search like a computer does, but they are doing pattern matching based on learning not instinct. All of that training was done through exercising free will.

 

[moonbogg]

> football

That's still not instinct in the sense of something you were born with. It's learned patterns based on training, experience and thought. The "muscle memory" of a martial arts master isn't instinct, it's the product of thousands of hours of training. And Chess masters might not be doing depth-first search like a computer does, but they are doing pattern matching based on learning not instinct. All of that training was done through exercising free will.

Sounds like your mind is made up. I'll leave you with this. What happens when you freely choose incorrectly? Why do you make a mistake? If you are free to make a choice, then you should choose what it is you want every time, but you don't. Sometimes you make errors. Why?

 

[lotus503]

Sounds like your mind is made up. I'll leave you with this. What happens when you freely choose incorrectly? Why do you make a mistake? If you are free to make a choice, then you should choose what it is you want every time, but you don't. Sometimes you make errors. Why?

what determines if a choice we make is correct or not correct?

 

[moonbogg]

what determines if a choice we make is correct or not correct?

Lets say you intend to do a certain thing, but you make an error and screw up, like buying the wrong kind of soup for your wife at the store. She told you what kind to buy, you read the label at the store, but you reached right out and consciously and willfully chose the wrong one.
I argue that the information in your subconscious was processed, it submitted the decision that was made and, like always, you took ownership of it and considered it correct (until your wife chewed you out when you got home).
That's not freedom to choose willingly. That's a cause and effect process arriving at a destination that you didn't plan or want.

To add to this, extreme complexity is what gives the illusion of free will. So many variables come into play that they can't be reliably traced. This sort of complexity is everywhere in nature, such as the complicated and unique path that a leaf takes as it falls from a tree, floating, twisting and turning all the way down to the ground. Leaves can't make decisions in any way, but its this kind of complexity that gives the illusion of free will. We operate based on cause and effect just like a falling leaf does. Unless you are outside the universe and looking in, then you are a part of it, and this is one large cause and effect cascade of events that we can't be separate from. To say we have free will is to say we have a soul or that there is something magical about our minds that separate and insulate them from the nature in which they emerged. If you believe that, fine.

 

[lotus503]

Lets say you intend to do a certain thing, but you make an error and screw up, like buying the wrong kind of soup for your wife at the store. She told you what kind to buy, you read the label at the store, but you reached right out and consciously and willfully chose the wrong one.
I argue that the information in your subconscious was processed, it submitted the decision that was made and, like always, you took ownership of it and considered it correct (until your wife chewed you out when you got home).
That's not freedom to choose willingly. That's a cause and effect process arriving at a destination that you didn't plan or want.

Fair enough, I have in fact brought home the wrong soup before

While I agree there is an element of this subconscious override to free will. In an effort to understand this more, lets go down the rabbit hole in your example a bit to see how it all breaks down.

Now lets say I am sitting staring at soup, what are the thoughts I have directly before reaching for the wrong one?

 

[moonbogg]

Fair enough, I have in fact brought home the wrong soup before

While I agree there is an element of this subconscious override to free will. In an effort to understand this more, lets go down the rabbit hole in your example a bit to see how it all breaks down.

Now lets say I am sitting staring at soup, what are the thoughts I have directly before reaching for the wrong one?

You may have conscious thoughts about other things. Maybe you are distracted and mindlessly grabbed the wrong one. It could happen another way, and I must admit to doing this kind of thing many times.
I am in the store, looking at the soup. I read the wrong label, reach out and grab it, consider the choice correct and drive my ignorant ass right on home to the angry wife. These kinds of errors can happen for many reasons, but the point I am trying to illustrate is that choices, or sets of choices are made based on subconscious processing of information. At the least it would seem that this sort of processing takes place in conjunction with conscious thought, so as to influence the decision being made, resulting in a cause and effect based decision and a less free natured decision.

I always do this, but TO ADD TO:
I suspect that consciousness is simply awareness and nothing more. Its like a mirror. It is a reflection of what is, but it does not define anything.

 

[lotus503]

You may have conscious thoughts about other things. Maybe you are distracted and mindlessly grabbed the wrong one. It could happen another way, and I must admit to doing this kind of thing many times.
I am in the store, looking at the soup. I read the wrong label, reach out and grab it, consider the choice correct and drive my ignorant ass right on home to the angry wife. These kinds of errors can happen for many reasons, but the point I am trying to illustrate is that choices, or sets of choices are made based on subconscious processing of information. At the least it would seem that this sort of processing takes place in conjunction with conscious thought, so as to influence the decision being made, resulting in a cause and effect based decision and a less free natured decision.

I always do this, but TO ADD TO:
I suspect that consciousness is simply awareness and nothing more. Its like a mirror. It is a reflection of what is, but it does not define anything.

I think the bolded is correct in fact I would go as far to say its certain.

think of our mind as a computer and the subconscious as prewritten routines that run with the goal of presenting our conscious with conclusions based on experience. memory etc.

I would add though that I do not think the end result is less free will. Consider if our subconscious did not do this for us what the end results would be.

I think of it much like all relationships, when my wife presents me an idea for what she wants to do today, its information to consider, whether or not I go along with it is still ac choice I'm making, even if she has outlined why it would be so good to do what she wants, the benefits etc. I guess what im saying is we still have to choose the weight the subconscious and I suspect its different based on the circumstances. Life threating situations we probablly allow more subconscious passthrough than say the choice to take a new job or not.

 

[moonbogg]

I think the bolded is correct in fact I would go as far to say its certain.

think of our mind as a computer and the subconscious as prewritten routines that run with the goal of presenting our conscious with conclusions based on experience. memory etc.

I would add though that I do not think the end result is less free will. Consider if our subconscious did not do this for us what the end results would be.

I think of it much like all relationships, when my wife presents me an idea for what she wants to do today, its information to consider, whter or not I go along with it is still ac choice i'm making, even if she has outlined why it woudl be so good to do what she wants, the benefits etc.

That makes sense to me I suppose. I mean, why not? After all, it sure does seem like we have free will and I always assumed we did. My suspicions now though, are that it is an absurdly complex illusion.
I do the best I can with the knowledge and experience that I have, but I am limited big time here. I will keep reading and look forward to more breakthroughs in neuroscience and brain research to add to my thoughts on the subject.
I think I can gain a lot just from reading more material that has already been published and re written for the layman like me so I can actually get something from it. There are a lot of smart people who have pretty much made up their minds on this subject, so there is a lot that can be learned.
But for now, I am going with "no free will" as it make the most sense to me.
Practical free will? Yeah, of course we have that. Literal free will? I don't see how that could even be possible.
You say that we consciously weigh the information presented by the sub conscious and then decide what to go with. I am saying that the brain does all of it, and we are only aware of the outcomes and we take ownership of the outcomes. I guess we are as free as a biological machine could be.

 

[lotus503]

That makes sense to me I suppose. I mean, why not? After all, it sure does seem like we have free will and I always assumed we did. My suspicions now though, are that it is an absurdly complex illusion.
I do the best I can with the knowledge and experience that I have, but I am limited big time here. I will keep reading and look forward to more breakthroughs in neuroscience and brain research to add to my thoughts on the subject.
I think I can gain a lot just from reading more material that has already been published and re written for the layman like me so I can actually get something from it. There are a lot of smart people who have pretty much made up their minds on this subject, so there is a lot that can be learned.
But for now, I am going with "no free will" as it make the most sense to me.
Practical free will? Yeah, of course we have that. Literal free will? I don't see how that could even be possible.

I like the way you put it, practical free will vs literal free will, we are in fact enslaved to a degree by our past thoughts and experiences, in fact I think a big part of being happy in life is learning to not be enslaved by them.

Then again with quantum mechanics and some of the breakthroughs on the way in that space, may turn everything we think we know on its head.

 

[moonbogg]

I like the way you put it, practical free will vs literal free will, we are in fact enslaved to a degree by our past thoughts and experiences, in fact I think a big part of being happy in life is learning to not be enslaved by them.

Then again with quantum mechanics and some of the breakthroughs on the way in that space, may turn everything we think we know on its head.

Some massive discovery that just smashes the crap out of our world view would be the most awesome thing ever. Imagine the sense of wonder from looking at the world with perfectly ignorant eyes again, where no one any longer has any idea about what the hell is really going on around here. I'd love it.

 

[02ranger]

I've been following this thread from the start and I have, an "issue" I guess. You guys keep saying we don't have free will because our subconcious is making the decisions for us, as if it's an outside entity. But it's OUR subconcious, so regardless of how the internal process works, it's still OUR decisions and OUR brain deciding, so doesn't that mean we're making the decisions? It isn't like Person B's subconcious is causing Person A's concious mind to do something, it's all within Person A or B. It's like saying a computer with two hard drives doesn't actually have Microsoft Office installed because it's on the second hard drive and not the primary hard drive with the OS installation. It's all part of the same computer.

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of arguing here, I'm genuinely interested in the topic and I really don't see how you're arriving at the conclusion we don't have free will simply because the subconcious plays a role in decisions.

 

[lotus503]

I've been following this thread from the start and I have, an "issue" I guess. You guys keep saying we don't have free will because our subconcious is making the decisions for us, as if it's an outside entity. But it's OUR subconcious, so regardless of how the internal process works, it's still OUR decisions and OUR brain deciding, so doesn't that mean we're making the decisions? It isn't like Person B's subconcious is causing Person A's concious mind to do something, it's all within Person A or B. It's like saying a computer with two hard drives doesn't actually have Microsoft Office installed because it's on the second hard drive and not the primary hard drive with the OS installation. It's all part of the same computer.

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of arguing here, I'm genuinely interested in the topic and I really don't see how you're arriving at the conclusion we don't have free will simply because the subconscious plays a role in decisions.

I for one am not saying we do not have free will, I think we do. I think the subconscious is analogous to say firmware, where based on our thoughts, feelings experiences we are hardwired for certain responses or that certain perspectives or thoughts will bubble up. I think this is a good thing as sometimes we experience things that require split second decision making.

It however does impact decision making etc. so it impacts true free will which would require the ability to make decisions absent any constraints.

 

[moonbogg]

I've been following this thread from the start and I have, an "issue" I guess. You guys keep saying we don't have free will because our subconcious is making the decisions for us, as if it's an outside entity. But it's OUR subconcious, so regardless of how the internal process works, it's still OUR decisions and OUR brain deciding, so doesn't that mean we're making the decisions? It isn't like Person B's subconcious is causing Person A's concious mind to do something, it's all within Person A or B. It's like saying a computer with two hard drives doesn't actually have Microsoft Office installed because it's on the second hard drive and not the primary hard drive with the OS installation. It's all part of the same computer.

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of arguing here, I'm genuinely interested in the topic and I really don't see how you're arriving at the conclusion we don't have free will simply because the subconcious plays a role in decisions.

Yes, of course it is you that is making the decisions. The question is whether or not that decision is simply a free one, or is it the end result of a very complicated series of cause and effect events? Some of the events may be simultaneous, but cause and effect based none the less, just like everything else in nature.
The following may help. I don't say, "I have a body". Instead I say, "I am a body". I don't see my self as being separate from nature, therefore, I obey the same laws of cause and effect as everything else.
Lets start with the beginning; our birth. You were born. It was your own personal big bang event. You had no say in the matter. Your parents chose to reproduce, but you had nothing to do with it. So, the free will argument starts with you.
A sperm fertilized an egg. Did it freely do so, or was it a complex cause and effect process operating within the parameters of nature?
Cells began to divide and replicate. Did they do so freely, or was it a complex cause and effect process?
Fast forward a little and you have a complex collection of cells called a fetus. Fast forward even more and you have a grown person (you). At which point was the natural chain of events broken? At which point was free will, something inherently contrary to the entire process that gave rise to you, inserted into your being? At which point was the cause and effect chain violated and broken? Was it when you started to learn to speak? Perhaps when you started to develop the concept of the self? These are all things that a complex brain does as it reacts to external influences and stimuli. If you were born into a dark box, trapped inside and kept alive with no external stimuli, you would not know what speech is, you could not think logically or think to yourself with words or language. You would not have the ability to choose anything or react to your environment in any way. Would you have free will then? I argue not, because free will is the illusion we get when our complex brains simply react to a complex environment.

 

[02ranger]

Yes, of course it is you that is making the decisions. The question is whether or not that decision is simply a free one, or is it the end result of a very complicated series of cause and effect events? Some of the events may be simultaneous, but cause and effect based none the less, just like everything else in nature.
The following may help. I don't say, "I have a body". Instead I say, "I am a body". I don't see my self as being separate from nature, therefore, I obey the same laws of cause and effect as everything else.
Lets start with the beginning; our birth. You were born. It was your own personal big bang event. You had no say in the matter. Your parents chose to reproduce, but you had nothing to do with it. So, the free will argument starts with you.
A sperm fertilized an egg. Did it freely do so, or was it a complex cause and effect process operating within the parameters of nature?
Cells began to divide and replicate. Did they do so freely, or was it a complex cause and effect process?
Fast forward a little and you have a complex collection of cells called a fetus. Fast forward even more and you have a grown person (you). At which point was the natural chain of events broken? At which point was free will, something inherently contrary to the entire process that gave rise to you, inserted into your being? At which point was the cause and effect chain violated and broken? Was it when you started to learn to speak? Perhaps when you started to develop the concept of the self? These are all things that a complex brain does as it reacts to external influences and stimuli. If you were born into a dark box, trapped inside and kept alive with no external stimuli, you would not know what speech is, you could not think logically or think to yourself with words or language. You would not have the ability to choose anything or react to your environment in any way. Would you have free will then? I argue not, because free will is the illusion we get when our complex brains simply react to a complex environment.

OK, I get what you're saying now. This post helped clarify some points for me, and I actually am kinda leaning towards your POV now. What I thought of reading your post is a human child that is raised in the wild or one that is kept in a room all their life and their only human interaction is when they're brought food. They're going to be feral, acting only on instinct. So that does make you think, what happened to their free will if it's an inherent human trait? Obviously they don't have free will in the traditional sense, because everything they do is instinct only.

I was also thinking about your other point, when does free will enter into a normal human. I tried to answer the question, but I can't. I can't honestly come up with a good answer to that because there's no clear point in my lifetime (or anybody else's) where they're free will came into play. I can say when they learned to talk and walk they started demonstrating free will, but why is that any different from a baby deciding to feed or poop, which is all instinctual? (In case my ramblings aren't clear enough, I'm agreeing with you moonbogg, lol)

This is a really interesting topic, and something I haven't really thought of from this perspective. Makes you question some things..............

 

[OverVolt]

I think free will is related to problem solving. Your subconscious is driving you most of the time, I agree with. You don't really decide when to eat so much as your body gets increasingly demanding that you go and find food.

Say someone swerves infront of you. The realization of the threat is automatic, as is your reaction to it (swerving, braking whatever, including the calculations, how hard to turn/brake etc, all unconscious) all you'd be able to really contribute with free will is going "ohhhrrr shiittt he gonna hit me" or something

 

[OverVolt]

Frustration, not getting what you want I feel like puts free will 100% in control.

People follow past behaviors that worked for them true but we can learn entirely new behaviors spontaneously, especially when faced with not getting what we want. I feel like that is free will.

 

[OverVolt]

The converse is also true, wrt to your consciousness making the decision for you beforehand.

The way it works is say you are lost and are trying to decide to go left or right. Based on gut feeling your subconscious already made the decision for you, say to go left. You become aware of it 1-2 seconds later as you begin to turn left. But you look at the street sight and recognize the street to the right, and veto that decision.

Your consciousness has veto power over your subconscious. You might plan to do one thing, but you can veto it. I feel like this ties in with game theory a bit. You plan your actions before your consciousness is aware of them, I get that.

Everyone has that "feeling" of what they are going to do beforehand. I feel like master chess players, master poker players etc. take that feeling and further modify their strategy on the fly. You might get close to 50-50 feeling on what strategy is best and free will decides.

So say you pick a number between 1-10. Your subconscious already picked the number before it enters your consciousness. Say it was 7, you might go "no I bet alot of people pick 7 I'll pick 1 they won't expect that"

Is that free will?

 

[moonbogg]

Say it was 7, you might go "no I bet alot of people pick 7 I'll pick 1 they won't expect that"

Is that free will?

Not unless you can explain the end result and why you chose "1". There is a reason, its not just magic. If it was a free will choice, you would have to be able to account for why you chose "1". If you say, "I wanted to be different", then where did this thought about being different come from, and why or how? A free choice is a choice that is made without influence. You mind is constantly influenced by the environment and by its own neurological function resulting from the stimulation.
You get a regression that takes place where you end up at a point for which you cannot account. You are unable to say how or why you began the train of thought of choosing "1". It just "came to you" from the darkness.
To add to this, lets say you could account for the highly detailed causal chain that led you to choose "1". You would wind up back to the moment you were born, and in fact it would go beyond that, simply proving free will to be illusory. This last paragraph touches on some dicey stuff that I could read up on some more, but I don't sense the freedom to do so right now.

 

[schmuckley]

Are you trying to say you read the entire thread? You didn't.

I like to bottom-line it.
and actually I did;I just happen to disagree with your viewpoint.

 

[lotus503]

I like to bottom-line it.
and actually I did;I just happen to disagree with your viewpoint.

Maybe if you actually read the thread you would know that's not what he was saying at all.

 

[Onceler]

You've got the roles reversed. The subconscious is the servant the conscious is the master.

 

[lotus503]

You've got the roles reversed. The subconscious is the servant the conscious is the master.

Thinking this over you may have a point, if I consider I dont have subconscious reactions to things I have not yet attached meaning to through conscious thought.

 

[moonbogg]

You've got the roles reversed. The subconscious is the servant the conscious is the master.

If you pay close attention to your thoughts and how they arise, you will notice that this isn't the case. They arise spontaneously.
If you had free will, you would have the freedom to plan and choose, but you do not. You have no control over, or even the slightest clue about what thoughts you will have exactly 5 minutes from now. This is because there are many causes that have yet to occur which will force you to arrive at that point in time, and your thoughts will be resultant of those causes of which you do not have, and cannot have any control over.