Free will? Who cares?

[Onceler]

If you pay close attention to your thoughts and how they arise, you will notice that this isn't the case. They arise spontaneously.
If you had free will, you would have the freedom to plan and choose, but you do not. You have no control over, or even the slightest clue about what thoughts you will have exactly 5 minutes from now. This is because there are many causes that have yet to occur which will force you to arrive at that point in time, and your thoughts will be resultant of those causes of which you have, and cannot have any control over.

The subconscious presents you with choices-it is up to your awareness to decide which choice to make.

 

[moonbogg]

The subconscious presents you with choices-it is up to your awareness to decide which choice to make.

Here's the thing. I agree with you pretty much, so that's why this discussion can be a little confusing. We still make decisions. What else could we do? The subtle difference is that I think the choices we make are done in a natural cause an effect way rather than a truly free will based way.
For instance, you can spend 10 minutes deciding between two things, such as raising your left hand or your right hand, but in the end you will decide on one of them. Can you account for why you chose the one you did? You might say, "I am right handed, so I wanted to do something different by raising my left hand". That sounds like a free choice, but where did this idea about "doing something different" come from? Can you account for it's source? Or did that "desire' to be different come from the dark at the last second?
You see, we think our choices are free because we make choices based on our desires, but where did our desires come from? Did you engineer your brain? Did you choose your biology, and along with it the things that you are naturally likely to prefer? Did you choose your environment that you were born into, the very environment that shaped and molded your behavior and opinions?
Did you engineer the concept of "doing something different" by raising your left hand instead of your right? Can you account for why you decided to raise the left? Why didn't you decide to raise your right hand? There were causes that led you to raise the left hand. Causes for which you couldn't possibly have any control over, just like you have no control over your height, skin color or the rate at which you produce white blood cells. Your brain is part of that same system of uncontrolled causes and effects.

EDIT: Real world example. My wife just realized that she lost the remote, and that thing is GONE. Did she freely choose to lose the remote? Did she freely choose to put it wherever she ended up putting it?
People say, "certain things can interfere with our free will" but if a system is only free some of the time, then its free none of the time. If a system was truly free, there would be no room for unfree. Why is it that we accept our mistakes and other events as being cause an effect based ("I was distracted, therefore free will didn't apply") but other times we say we have free will?

 

[Onceler]

A martial artist when he first starts out cannot block blows because he has to guess which arm to move to block them. After consciously training for many years it becomes automatic(subconscious controlled).

 

[moonbogg]

A martial artist when he first starts out cannot block blows because he has to guess which arm to move to block them. After consciously training for many years it becomes automatic(subconscious controlled).

Can a martial artist account for why he became a martial artist? We could do this all day. I think its time to say we simply disagree, and when it comes to a topic like this, disagreement is guaranteed to be very common. Maybe some smarter people than myself would carry more weight with you. Do some googling on free will and watch some discussion videos. It should be interesting if nothing else.

 

[JEDIYoda]

so far nobody has proven that free will does not exist..........

 

[JEDIYoda]

EDIT: Real world example. My wife just realized that she lost the remote, and that thing is GONE. Did she freely choose to lose the remote? Did she freely choose to put it wherever she ended up putting it?
People say, "certain things can interfere with our free will" but if a system is only free some of the time, then its free none of the time. If a system was truly free, there would be no room for unfree. Why is it that we accept our mistakes and other events as being cause an effect based ("I was distracted, therefore free will didn't apply") but other times we say we have free will?
that's just crazy you are confusing free will with perfectly normal things that happen around in life...
of course your wife did not mean to lose the remote!!

Your just being idiotic now -- you know for a fact that you do have a free will to make the decisions you make!
You also make those decisions based on life experiences.....
Some peoples life experiences would cause them to make different choices! Yet -- they do and will always have a free will to make a different choice....

Nice troll thread btw..........

 

[moonbogg]

I love you too Yoda.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Depends on how you define freewill. Jesus is Lord and rules over all.

 

[lotus503]

Depends on how you define freewill. Jesus is Lord and rules over all.

Interesting, I think for Jesus to rule over you, one has to believe he is god and not some cool guy from a couple thousand years ago.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Interesting, I think for Jesus to rule over you, one has to believe he is god and not some cool guy from a couple thousand years ago.

Jesus is God as part of the Trinity. God is sovereign.

God rules over all of His creation. He is in control of everything. God has divine freewill and does what he pleases. It pleases him to create us in His own image, meaning we were given limited freewill.

Humans have limited freewill because our freewill is subservient to God's freewill to do as he pleases.

 

[moonbogg]

Jesus is God as part of the Trinity. God is sovereign.

God rules over all of His creation. He is in control of everything. God has divine freewill and does what he pleases. It pleases him to create us in His own image, meaning we were given limited freewill.

Humans have limited freewill because our freewill is subservient to God's freewill to do as he pleases.

Interesting hypothesis. I would argue that if everything you said is perfectly correct, we still couldn't have free will. It would require us to be God. I don't think we would even have limited free will because we are placed in a cause and effect system of which we are a part. You can insert God into the equation but it doesn't change anything IMO regarding the free will argument because our situation is still exactly the same.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Interesting hypothesis. I would argue that if everything you said is perfectly correct, we still couldn't have free will. It would require us to be God. I don't think we would even have limited free will because we are placed in a cause and effect system of which we are a part. You can insert God into the equation but it doesn't change anything IMO regarding the free will argument because our situation is still exactly the same.

you need to look at free will the same as Christians look at the word FAITH.....you really cannot explain it in any form such as this because everything somebody says you will try to explain away.....that just does not work!

 

[moonbogg]

you need to look at free will the same as Christians look at the word FAITH.....you really cannot explain it in any form such as this because everything somebody says you will try to explain away.....that just does not work!

Its a topic for discussion because the issue isn't settled. A complete and thorough understanding of the brain would be needed at the least. I think its illusory, many people do not.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Its a topic for discussion because the issue isn't settled. A complete and thorough understanding of the brain would be needed at the least. I think its illusory, many people do not.

it will never be settled!
You can use all the word manipulation and scientific data that you want -- this subject will never be settled for some people --- like you!!

There comes a point after everything is said and done that this thread turns into a troll thread!

You will not budge and neither will others.

So agree to disagree!!

 

[moonbogg]

it will never be settled!
You can use all the word manipulation and scientific data that you want -- this subject will never be settled for some people --- like you!!

There comes a point after everything is said and done that this thread turns into a troll thread!

You will not budge and neither will others.

So agree to disagree!!

I will budge if evidence comes to light that settles the issue. I am not dogmatic about my beliefs. My beliefs are evidence based and I thought this through as carefully as I can for the time being. If you read the thread I have agreed to disagree with several people, directly. But others have shown interest in the discussion.
I'm not sure you have the authority to shut down a thread and a set of ideas just because you disagree with them or if they threaten your world view. And yes, just like any other testable hypothesis, the subject of free will can and will be settled one day, and one day relatively soon I expect. There is still plenty of room left for revolutionary breakthroughs that change the way we view ourselves and our place in the world and the subject of free will, or the lack there of, is certainly one of these.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I will budge if evidence comes to light that settles the issue. --evidence to one is hyperbole to the next..as in your case...
I am not dogmatic about my beliefs. My beliefs are evidence based and I thought this through as carefully as I can for the time being. --it would appear that you thought this through with a closed mind and I would bet that if we interjected the word FAITH in the equation somewhere that you would say that you need proof that faith exists!

If you read the thread I have agreed to disagree with several people, directly. But others have shown interest in the discussion.
I'm not sure you have the authority to shut down a thread and a set of ideas just because you disagree with them or if they threaten your world view.

Are you that paranoid that I really want to shut the thread down? Where did I say that is what I wanted?? Please show me....

And yes, just like any other testable hypothesis, the subject of free will can and will be settled one day, and one day relatively soon I expect. There is still plenty of room left for revolutionary breakthroughs that change the way we view ourselves and our place in the world and the subject of free will, or the lack there of, is certainly one of these. -- actually you are 1/2 right....that subject will be settled one day --- when you stand before God almighty and he says to you -- just because there is no way to explain something does not mean that it does not exist!

ahhh I get it, me calling this a troll thread means I want it shut down??
If that is what you honestly think or believe I sais no wonder you have issues with free will...

 

[moonbogg]

ahhh I get it, me calling this a troll thread means I want it shut down??
If that is what you honestly think or believe I sais no wonder you have issues with free will...

I can tell you like me. Regarding free will, why do you think we have it?

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Interesting hypothesis. I would argue that if everything you said is perfectly correct, we still couldn't have free will. It would require us to be God. I don't think we would even have limited free will because we are placed in a cause and effect system of which we are a part. You can insert God into the equation but it doesn't change anything IMO regarding the free will argument because our situation is still exactly the same.

The discussion depends on how freewill is defined. Once you nail down the definition of what is included in human freewill vs. what is not, the discussion becomes a lot easier.

An analogy to our discussion would be a discussion about if there is such a thing as "free lunch".

 

[moonbogg]

The discussion depends on how freewill is defined. Once you nail down the definition of what is included in human freewill vs. what is not, the discussion becomes a lot easier.

An analogy to our discussion would be a discussion about if there is such a thing as "free lunch".

Excellent. Free will get mixed up with decision making and that's not what I mean. I am arguing against this magical notion of free will as described below.

Imagine the whole universe was like a video and you could rewind it and play it forward, just like a video tape. Lets say you rewound the universe to a decision you made yesterday. Lets say you decided to eat dinner at Joe's instead of Moe's. If you rewound the universe, and I mean everything including all of your biological processes, neurology and everything else, back to an instant before you decided to eat at Joe's, could you now decide to eat at Moe's instead? Would you? If you say you would, then that's the kind of free will I think doesn't exist.
You decided to eat where you did due to many causes, and if that scenario was replayed it would unfold the same way according to my view. Hope that helps.

EDIT: Regarding the free lunch analogy. Yes, those exist. The entire universe, my life and everything I hold dear is the ultimate free lunch as I had nothing to do with any of it and couldn't have deserved any of it. For that I am grateful.
Furthermore, I don't see why people have a problem with god and free will. If a person believes in god, why not see and accept the creation for what it is instead of trying to make it something it is not? If god created, then he created. He is the author of creation, right? Doesn't that make him the author of your thoughts and not you? How can you claim responsibility for something (your thoughts) that you ultimately had nothing to do with coming about?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Doesn't that make him the author of your thoughts and not you?

no....you are the author of your own thoughts....

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 

[Pray To Jesus]

Ingenious how God created this universe to allow for human (limited) freewill. He design of our universe to make perspective important.

We don't know the future. We know the past, but we can't go back into the past.

Thus, we only experience events in the present moment. This setup let us choose our action only in the now. What we experience seems to us freewill. To us, we can choose from moment to moment. We can only experience life in our perspective.

It really is a hard concept to truly understand. When I asked God about this, He taught me in a flash of realization of the truth. It's impossible for me to replicate that experience to share with others.

The Bible says that without the Holy Spirit's guidance, it's impossible to understand the Bible.

I pray that God will bless you and guide you in your search for the truth.

 

[sandorski]

Ingenious how God created this universe to allow for human (limited) freewill. He design of our universe to make perspective important.

We don't know the future. We know the past, but we can't go back into the past.

Thus, we only experience events in the present moment. This setup let us choose our action only in the now. What we experience seems to us freewill. To us, we can choose from moment to moment. We can only experience life in our perspective.

It really is a hard concept to truly understand. When I asked God about this, He taught me in a flash of realization of the truth. It's impossible for me to replicate that experience to share with others.

The Bible says that without the Holy Spirit's guidance, it's impossible to understand the Bible.

I pray that God will bless you and guide you in your search for the truth.

It seems apparent that even having the "Holy Spirits" guidance doesn't help in this matter.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

It seems apparent that even having the "Holy Spirits" guidance doesn't help in this matter.

The only thing that's apparent is your ignorance of the subject.

 

[moonbogg]

Ingenious how God created this universe to allow for human (limited) freewill. He design of our universe to make perspective important.

We don't know the future. We know the past, but we can't go back into the past.

Thus, we only experience events in the present moment. This setup let us choose our action only in the now. What we experience seems to us freewill. To us, we can choose from moment to moment. We can only experience life in our perspective.

It really is a hard concept to truly understand. When I asked God about this, He taught me in a flash of realization of the truth. It's impossible for me to replicate that experience to share with others.

The Bible says that without the Holy Spirit's guidance, it's impossible to understand the Bible.

I pray that God will bless you and guide you in your search for the truth.

Yes, it seems that we have free will, and when it comes to what I call "practical free will" of course we have that. We live in a practical way and make choices and don't agonize over their many causes.
But when it comes to "literal free will" it would seem that you are coming to understand my position, and I appreciate you taking the time to do that.
Also, thanks for the kind words and wishes. I wish you the same.

 

[sandorski]

The only thing that's apparent is your ignorance of the subject.

Interesting. If the "Holy Spirit" is informing Christians, why is there so much disagreement amongst them?