French group wants courts to block U.S. Racist Website

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
Hehe, boy you guys sure don't like having your sacred cows gored do you. kamiam, why the fantasy that I logged off with my tail behind my legs. I took my buddy for his evening constitutional, so I guess the server logged me out. I'm still logged in on my machine. And Amused, for somebody who uses so many words to say so little you sure used an aweful lot of you own attacking me if not what I have to say. Fire away, It's quite funny actually.

OK, so where are we? kamian first: "...its much better to let the individual make their own decision as to what they watch and hear... not someone who "thinks" that they know whats good for them...your thinking is flawed moonbeam" You seem to forget you just said, "if your smart enough to realise it for what it is then your smart enough to "tune it out" Now which is it, can we tell if something is hate speach or not. All I did was show you how absurd your position is if in fact we can know as YOU implied was possible. Please don't attack the logic conclusion of an argument built on your own assertions and say the problem is with my thinking. You have to say that you were wrong about being smart enough to KNOW. I merely showed you that if we are smart enought to know then your argument that we shouldn't censor based on that knowledge is ridiculous. If we know we should censor. The problem is to really be sure we know. My thinking isn't flawed. I see that danger and recognize it as the issue. It's where Amused gets all bollixed up too.

What you do Amused is resort to absolutism to escape the complexities of the issue. You live in a box, a constrained box limiting your flexibility of action. Your seem also to need to constrain everybody else inside your boxed small universe which is what I see as faschistic. You have an elitist certainty about your belief and a powerful need to attempt to attack opposing views. "D My my, such rabidity. Your ideas would sound better presented with a little modesty. Only the super elite usually get so wound up when challenged.

I have pointed out to you that where your ideas fall down is in the notion that nobody has any real sense of judgement and if they do they are a fascist. The fact is that nobody has any real judgement who has an ego. It is the lover who sees and knows. No power on earth, no silly 1st ammendment induced hallucination can stop the action of love. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. There are elites out there about which you can only dream.

I'v tried to make the point over and over that there is god and bad on each side of this issue as it is ordinarily argued. I am not supporting or denying either side, but pointing out where the real resolution lies. And Amused, if I am a follower of somebody, please tell me whom. It's lonely out here. I could use the company. And please spare me the commie shots. I have never read then nore do I more than even vaguely understand what they represent.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,998
14,514
146


<< What you do Amused is resort to absolutism to escape the complexities of the issue. You live in a box, a constrained box limiting your flexibility of action. Your seem also to need to constrain everybody else inside your boxed small universe which is what I see as faschistic. >>



Moon, stop right there. YOU want to constrain people. I want to let them be free, so long as they harm no one else.

Sorry, Moon, but your argument gets weaker and weaker as you go on. Now you're arguing against a straw man, because you have no argument against me.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81


<< I hate to say this, Classy... but you're a fascist. A fascist with good intentions, but a fascist nonetheless. >>



Well if that is what I am in this situation then so be it. Cause I am down with the French on this one. GO FRANCE, GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
 

Marty

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
1,534
0
0
First classify what hate speach is. Can anyone give me a good definition? Is it simply anything that is far out of sync with the views of society? I don't think I can come up with a better definition than this. I challenge the supporters of the French in this argument to come up with a better one.

Marty
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,998
14,514
146


<< First classify what hate speach is. Can anyone give me a good definition? Is it simply anything that is far out of sync with the views of society? I don't think I can come up with a better definition than this. I challenge the supporters of the French in this argument to come up with a better one.

Marty
>>



BINGO!!!
 

Belegost

Golden Member
Feb 20, 2001
1,807
19
81
As execrable, and repugnant as those views and the people who hold them are to me, I must argue against censoring them. Today it's the disgusting rascist groups, but what about tomorrow? What happens when the government says your opinions are wrong? I support free speech and free press that doesn't pass the limits of slander and libel respectively.

I don't quite understand your whole &quot;love vision&quot; argument Moonbeam. I dunno what philosophy you're into, but please explain this in greater detail. What I understand so far is:
There are some people who by having a better love, are better at deciding what opinions are good.
You're one of the said people.
The said people should be the ones deciding what cannot be published or said.

Now this is just what I gather from your words, but maybe you can clarify any points I misunderstood. Because frankly that sounds a bit fascist.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
Belegost, thanks for stating your concerns in an intelligent and interested manner. It's refreshing to see somebody with cogent questions. I don't know if I can state it better, but I'll try.

In the first place, as complex social animals, we make judgments for other people all the time. We make them for our children, we advise adults through education, etc. Amused there wants to force us to adopt a hands off approach to censorship and who knows, might even try to inforce it if he were dictator for a day. We make suggestions for what's good at the restaurant and so on and so forth. We are constantly influencing each other through our opinions and experience. You could see the world as on the back of the dollar. The pyramid with the seeing eye. It's just a bell curve representing knowledge. Those who have it see, and also see who else sees. It is an inescapable fact that life deals out wisdom in different proportions just as Amused claims that abilities and therefore pay are differentiated by their rarity. The unrecognized fact is, however, that knowledge is compulsive. It is given from those who have it to those who don't. As I said, real knowledge is accompanied by love. Love is unstoppable. It can't be turned off by formulae or theories of behavior. If for any reason love demands censorship, the lover will censor. The question as to how to define hate speach, for example, is a question for those who aren't in love. The lover IS and hate is a form of nonbeing instantly and instinctively reconizable to one who IS. The lover obeys no law but the law of love. Action is instantaneous and without thought or analysis. Theory is for the mind. The lover heart has wings. All the blather about the danger of fascism is just nonsense generated by the unreliable nature of those who project that fear. The lover can have no ego. He is not a danger, therefore, in the ordinary sense of the word. His actions are from knowledge out of love. Look out for the kiss.

Edit: I just came from WombatWoman's thread. Some POS make a remark in there filled with stupidity and animosity. A masterpiece of bad taste. The mods nuked his entire post. Congratulations to him or her for an act of appropriate kindness.
 

kamiam

Banned
Dec 12, 1999
2,638
0
0
moonbeam sorry but for alot of words it's just alot of &quot;gobbledigook&quot; you talk like a former girlfriend of mine...when she found herself on the losing end of an arguement she would spout off w/ a bunch of nonsencical uninterpretable sentences just to totally confuse the issue just as you have...personally I think you are in need of some professional help
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
That's not true, kamian. When I'm on the loosing side of an argument, I accuse people of reminding me of a former girlfriend. It crushes them every time.

I have yet to do it though because I haven't latley been on the loosing side of an argument that was of any real significance. What for you is an argument with winning and loosing at stake, is for me an effort to provide you and others with a different and in my opinion better understanding of an issue. It's a difficult case to make, but truth if you will, isn't out there in abstract absolutist theories, but inside, instinctual, intuitive, what's left after a mental bath that washes away illusion. Truth is as much or more a matter of unlearning what is false as it is of learning anything new. It is nice to see, though, that I have dropped from a Communist conspiricist to a mere mental case.
 

kamiam

Banned
Dec 12, 1999
2,638
0
0


<< What for you is an argument with winning and loosing at stake...It crushes them every time >>


you ASSUME alot for knowing very little...as someone once said...you talk alot but say very little
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,998
14,514
146


<< Belegost, thanks for stating your concerns in an intelligent and interested manner. It's refreshing to see somebody with cogent questions. I don't know if I can state it better, but I'll try.

In the first place, as complex social animals, we make judgments for other people all the time. We make them for our children, we advise adults through education, etc. Amused there wants to force us to adopt a hands off approach to censorship and who knows, might even try to inforce it if he were dictator for a day. We make suggestions for what's good at the restaurant and so on and so forth. We are constantly influencing each other through our opinions and experience. You could see the world as on the back of the dollar. The pyramid with the seeing eye. It's just a bell curve representing knowledge. Those who have it see, and also see who else sees. It is an inescapable fact that life deals out wisdom in different proportions just as Amused claims that abilities and therefore pay are differentiated by their rarity. The unrecognized fact is, however, that knowledge is compulsive. It is given from those who have it to those who don't. As I said, real knowledge is accompanied by love. Love is unstoppable. It can't be turned off by formulae or theories of behavior. If for any reason love demands censorship, the lover will censor. The question as to how to define hate speach, for example, is a question for those who aren't in love. The lover IS and hate is a form of nonbeing instantly and instinctively reconizable to one who IS. The lover obeys no law but the law of love. Action is instantaneous and without thought or analysis. Theory is for the mind. The lover heart has wings. All the blather about the danger of fascism is just nonsense generated by the unreliable nature of those who project that fear. The lover can have no ego. He is not a danger, therefore, in the ordinary sense of the word. His actions are from knowledge out of love. Look out for the kiss.

Edit: I just came from WombatWoman's thread. Some POS make a remark in there filled with stupidity and animosity. A masterpiece of bad taste. The mods nuked his entire post. Congratulations to him or her for an act of appropriate kindness.
>>



Never has so much meant so little, and been so wrong.

Moonie, do you ever come straight to the point? Or is your whole life's purpose to baffle the ignorant with bullsh!t?

You claim the elite have the duty (and right) to control the unwashed masses because the masses don't know any better, can't control themselves, and can't discern good outside influences from bad. Oh, and because the elite love them, even if the elite don't think the masses love them, or themselves.

In short, you want Big Mother, not Big Brother.

This is the short version of that million word spin of yours.

It is, on it's face, so ridiculous, it doesn't even require a reply...

Good gawd man, what ever it is you're smoking, pass some this way.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Moonbeam, you should move out to farmland somewhere, the farmers could use that load of fertilizer you are shoveling out.

&quot;What for you is an argument with winning and loosing at stake, is for me an effort to provide you and others with a different and in my opinion better understanding of an issue. &quot;

I for one am tired of people that get in the middle of a discussion and then just say they are trying to &quot;present&quot; a different &quot;viewpoint&quot; Load of crap IMHO. MB you are not alone in claiming that facetious argument, but I won't name the others here.

If you wish to get involved in a discussion, all well and good, get involved.
 

kamiam

Banned
Dec 12, 1999
2,638
0
0
moonie


<< I have dropped from a Communist conspiricist to a mere mental case >>


wrong again you commie nutcase
 

kamiam

Banned
Dec 12, 1999
2,638
0
0
once again moonie has &quot;hit and ran&quot; about as bad as a terrorist...not strong enough to stay for a prolonged attack so he &quot;hits and runs&quot;...sorta like a drunk driver
 

kamiam

Banned
Dec 12, 1999
2,638
0
0
AmusedOne


<< Moonie, do you ever come straight to the point? Or is your whole life's purpose to baffle the ignorant with bullsh!t? >>


well you know what they say...if you can't dazzle them with brilliance,baffle them with bullsh!t
 

kamiam

Banned
Dec 12, 1999
2,638
0
0
Mikal


<< Can I shut down my thread now? >>

lol...but why...we're having soo much fun!?!?
 

Mikal

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2001
2,359
1
0
Well, I guess so...... I got all dazzled by the bullsh!t and everything....
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
kamian It's a wise fox that knows his own scent.

Amused, you're almost like having Corn back. He too had a habit of telling me what I said and then shooting it down. Trouble is that after saying that you can't undersand a thing I say, you encapsulate your misunderstandings into a paraphrase and shoot holes in your own delusion.

&quot;You claim the elite have the duty (and right) to control the unwashed masses because the masses don't know any better, can't control themselves, and can't discern good outside influences from bad. Oh, and because the elite love them, even if the elite don't think the masses love them, or themselves.&quot;

I make no such claim. That is probably just your own fear talking. You are still looking for answers in your head. As long as you leave your heart out of it you will continue to be mystified. There are a whole ton of people in the world who don't have your clingy need for absolutes based on theoreticals rather than internals. The French are among them. Your world won't end. Even the mods here just nuked a guys entire post because its only purpose was to hurt. I agree with that action and would have done the same. Too much fear of the bad in people leads to repression of what is good in them. It's you, I think, who has the negative view of man. I only want to meet you half way. Allow most stuff, but be open to the possibility that censorship of one form or another can be an option that serious minds will employ where they see real reason. As decissions grade from the personal to the collective there needs to be greater and greated consensuality as well as human experience brought to bare. 50 million, for example, is enough to get alot of people's attention. Your theory is a little too pat in light of that experience for the French, obviously.

The difference between actions that originate in love ahd hate are impossible to define and yet we know them when we see them or at least most of us do. The difference between knowledge and fanaticism is similarly obscure but can be seen in the results. Because there are no words for these things and because they don't fit into neat theories doesn't mean they aren't real. They become increasingly real as you do. Since we will go round and round on this elsewhere, I'm sure, I will end it here. Please don't take advantage of the fact that I am now effectively censored to argue further with me. That wouldn't be fair.

Just kidding. Knock your self out.

 

kamiam

Banned
Dec 12, 1999
2,638
0
0


<< kamian It's a wise fox that knows his own scent >>


and I'd say you've been sniffing yourself for way too long...or maybe it's &quot;something else&quot; you've been sniffing...once again you &quot;talk alot but say very little&quot;
 

kamiam

Banned
Dec 12, 1999
2,638
0
0
moonbeam

<< The unrecognized fact is, however, that knowledge is compulsive. It is given from those who have it to those who don't. As I said, real knowledge is accompanied by love. Love is unstoppable. It can't be turned off by formulae or theories of behavior. If for any reason love demands censorship, the lover will censor >>


seems to me that &quot;love demands censorship...and...the lover will censor &quot; to quote you flies right in the face of

<< I make no such claim >>

 

Recneps

Senior member
Jul 2, 2000
232
0
0
If the French want to enforce there censor ship laws on this side of the atlantic then they better start sending over troops. The US should never let another country walk over us be sue people in the US who have never been to France who based on the content of there web site are to dumd to know were france is, ect... It doesn't matter what law no matter how right the Franch and US think it is France should keep her head up her ASS and not mess with other countries. What next are we going to let China create a law saying the US has to censor all press about there human right violations, they have to make a retraction for all stories present &quot;hateful anti china&quot; content.

The censor ship is a small portion of this case. Do you really want to let all other nation wright out laws for US?
 

reitz

Elite Member
Oct 11, 1999
3,878
2
76


<< No one needs to read or hear Racist material. >>

Then when do we get to censor your loud mouth?
 
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