Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Double Trouble
I agree with you for the most part, but the fact remains that the Muslim religion is in many ways at odds with western societies and culture. If adapting to the western society is not acceptable because certain fundamental rules of the religion do not jibe with fundamental rules of the western society, then those who cannot accept those principles should move to some other country. In France for example, it's not about the hijab / burqa / whatever it's called, it's about the fundamental principal of gender equality. Certain Muslims (by no means all of them) simply can not accept that concept, because it goes counter to their beliefs. The burqa is a symbol of that problem, and the French have decided that they will not accept it. I see no problem with their position.
Again, I have not read anything in the articles referenced that indicates she was banned from the pool because of her religious beliefs. She was booted because she violated rules that apply to everyone, no matter how silly some might think those rules are. She's whining about religious freedom etc, when it has nothing to do with it. If a guy showed up in jeans, he'd have the same result she did. It just happens to affect her because of her nutty beliefs, but that's her problem.
I can say the same thing with different Christian groups about being at odds with 'western societies and culture'. Islam is just a convenient target for today's world. I suggest you try to define that vague term first if you will invoke it.
No doubt there are similar conflicts with other religions -- the pharmacists refusing to dispense birth control is an example. In that scenario I say the same to them: suck it up, either get a different job or get rid of the nutty religious views.
Again, she was wearing swimwear. If you want to somehow suggest that material designed for a pool is equivalent to a pair of jeans, I'd like to see you spell out the argument.
You call it swimwear, they do not. Who gets to decide what is "swimwear"... those making the law, that's who.
See I feel there is a HUGE disconnect when you say, "France for example, it's not about the hijab / burqa / whatever it's called, it's about the fundamental principal of gender equality". It is as if you understand very little. A Hijab is not the same as a Burqa, is not the same as a Niqab, and exists in many diferent styles. How can you lump them all together when a hijab and Burqa are VERY different
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared...uslim_veils/html/1.stm
I'm very well aware that there are differences between the various types of veils. It's irrelevant though, to most western societies they have all come to symbolize the same thing: oppression and inequality of women. Sure, they look different and different women wear them for different reasons, but that doesn't change what are are seen to represent -- and each society gets to decide what is appropriate to wear in public. Don't like it? Move somewhere else, or work through the political system to change the rule. As long as the rules are applies consistently, there's no discrimination.
Furthermore, you take the line that the Hjiab (or 'whatever' you are thinking of, as I can't tell) is not part of gender equality at all. Then you simply don't understand why MANY women wear the Hijab voluntarily.
Sure it's "voluntarily", they don't know any different, they were raised in that environment. "Voluntarily" agreeing that women are not equal to men doesn't make it ok. Personally, I think it's idiotic to wear that stuff, but if they want to wear it, it doesn't affect me in any way so I'm fine with them wearing it. It's not the act of wearing a certain item of clothing that people have a problem with, it's what it symbolizes. Hanging a noose on the door of a black person in Alabama doesn't directly harm them, but it symbolizes something much more than the simple act itself.
The French have decided what they think is appropriate, and after all, they get to decide what is acceptable in their society.
If you see a lady wearing a Hijab on the street, I would suggest to ask her why she wears one.
I had a good friend from Turkey for a long time who used to sometimes wear a hijab occasionally. I never figured out the purpose of "sometimes" wearing one, but that's another matter. Asked why she wore one at all, she just shrugged and said "because that's how I was raised".
It is interesting how the west always assumes that women who wear the Burqa do so because they are forced or pressured into it.
Some wear it by choice, some are forced, and many just don't know any better, they are simply raised from birth to believe it to be the right thing to do.
I guess they were expecting that all women will go in the street and throw the Burqas the moment they saw the Americans? as we all know,? did not happen.
Well duh, just because you free them physically doesn't mean they are free mentally, it's going to take generations.
I am not sure how women who wear the hijab are not dignified, but women who get cheated on through sex scandals by their partners are??.
Huh? What does being cheated on have to do with anything? If a man cheats on his gf/wife, she can decide if she will accept it or not.
I, as a women find that interesting, i wonder how other women feel about it? also I wonder how Sarkozy can speak about women?s dignity? when he was checking a young woman?s butt in a very indignified way?
Since when does whether a man "checks out" a womans butt have anything to do with her dignity??
I guess we should aspire to a world where women have their full rights, but let?s not get too lost in the western idea of rights to a point where we ignore the right to chose, and the right to be different in the process?
They are not mutually exclusive, nor are they incompatible.
Except you mis read what was written by him. Your logic of "If sociey [ie:majority] says its banned, then its banned" simply leads to tyranny of the majority on the minority.
.... as opposed to the minority imposing it's views of what is acceptable onto the majority? Everyone is free to have their views and beliefs, but that doesn't mean everyone else should change to suit their beliefs. If that means "you will dispense medicine if you're a pharmacist", or "you can't wear xyz outfit in a public pool", so be it.