fresh home build coming soon

[herm0016]

Interested to know what you planned for if not the recessed fixtures described? We are trying the plates that mark out the flip ins for the drywallers to cut them but they won't really work for insulated spaces and it turns out they kinda suck. Should be trimming that building soon so will let you know.

@Greenman I would like to hear what you like for recessed lighting. I feel like the led native stuff is not quite mature in mass market affordable fixtures. The nail up fixtures are ok but it is a little hoky doing the Edison base to the trim. would like to see something with less volume and has a good led trim with several luman ratings from maybe 800 to 2000 for high ceilings and whatnot. We use them because they are fairly cheap, easy to get, and the trims are very available and cheap.

Mostly dictated because some of our customers do not value an electrical system, and think we should be able to wire a building in moments and wire is cheap..... We tend to over think a little and come at it from a system design perspective. Which in commercial work is appreciated when it comes time for changes, and is totally necessary when we are working at the water utility or wiring up a machine shop full of large CNC equipment.

Anyhow.... A bit of ramble.

At least we fixed a family's ac today, person that installed it could not be bothered to find the correct split 2 pole breaker for the full panel so wired into the dryer plug for power. Lol. Laundry and ac use were mutually exclusive.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[skyking]

recessed is good I want to avoid the can with the edison base in it.

 

[Greenman]

I've been using Halo cans and lights for years, inexpensive, reasonably dependable, and available. Available being the key part of the equation.
Generally the architect spec's whatever is the most expensive, and I invariably change that spec to what I can get. Everyone carries Halo, the Homie generally has a pallet or two laying around, and the two local supply houses stock them as well.
The Halo cans come in either variety, Edison base with an adapter or a small two prong plug. I use whichever is available at the time as there isn't any functional difference, and put dimmers on pretty much every light. The dimmers cost about the same as the fixture.
I've also gone entirely to 4" cans.

The lights do have a failure rate. About one in thirty crap out the first year, I haven't had one fail after that. I'll note that it's invariably the toughest one to get to that goes bad.

 

[Greenman]

recessed is good I want to avoid the can with the edison base in it.

Why does the edison base matter? Screw in the adaptor, plug in the light. It adds 15 seconds to the install. You'll forget it's there after a few years.

 

[skyking]

The goal is a lighting circuit that I can back up with battery. I will have the entire first floor on that circuit. I will put the entire 2nd floor on another circuit.
Look up the NEC "Load to be served" rules.
If I put in a 65 watt capable edison base, that becomes the governing load. It does not matter that I put a 10 watt LED trim in there.
Please note that this only applies to the base navigation lighting. There are more can light circuits going in, the task lights for in the kitchen, etc. Switched outlets in the living room. Lots of other lights.
We have a plan to power a sub panel with 4 circuits total.
This will fail over to an inverter with a modest battery bank, not a tesla powerwall or other large bank. The inverter will be sized to start that sewer pump.
This can be done with a simple 30 Amp DPDT relay in a housing with an appropriate delay to account for the typical power failure drama. You want to wait at least 10 seconds for all that.
The two 15 amp lighting circuits.
one circuit for the fridge and freezer.
one circuit for the sewer pump.
I don't want a full house generator, all I care about is the lights work, the food does not spoil, and the toilet does not back up.
I want it to be simple and reliable for when we are traveling. No lighting or poop loads then, only the fridge and freezer.
@herm0016 I will for sure have lighting only on lighting circuits, including those switched outlets.
I too prefer the idea of 20 amp outlet circuits everywhere for consistency, with the exception of the 15 amp switched outlets.

 

[skyking]

I've been using Halo cans and lights for years, inexpensive, reasonably dependable, and available. Available being the key part of the equation.
Generally the architect spec's whatever is the most expensive, and I invariably change that spec to what I can get. Everyone carries Halo, the Homie generally has a pallet or two laying around, and the two local supply houses stock them as well.
The Halo cans come in either variety, Edison base with an adapter or a small two prong plug. I use whichever is available at the time as there isn't any functional difference, and put dimmers on pretty much every light. The dimmers cost about the same as the fixture.
I've also gone entirely to 4" cans.

The lights do have a failure rate. About one in thirty crap out the first year, I haven't had one fail after that. I'll note that it's invariably the toughest one to get to that goes bad.

I am not building any grand spaces beyond that elevator shaft, so I won't have really crappy high cans to put in or service. The groaners will be over the island. Two ladders and a scaffold plank cures that

 

[skyking]

@herm0016
In a perfect world, what do you want for a breaker panel situation?
I am putting it in an equipment room in the basement. I can drop it into a stud bay like a typical install.
I was thinking a surface mount box and a surface mount sub panel might be nicer. You get all the sides and tops and also back knockouts into the supporting wall.
I was thinking pop a 2 1/2 long sweep up on that wall so you can walk all around it when working. I think that would be far better than up against the ICF concrete basement wall.
The run to the meter is about 80' ?
It's a 200 amp service. No need for more, with modern appliances and heat pumps etc.
The shop has it's own 200 amp disconnect in the pedestal. Something like this.


That is what I installed at my friend's place.


I can pull my temp power out of the shop disconnect and set up a nice work panel by the house. If I am cagey about it, I could re-use all of it in the shop when I build that in a year or two.
That way I can run the house conduit and not have to dink around taking the temp panel down to pull in the house power.
My PUD charges $40 for the meter read, that is the highest in the state. They would aggregate two meters on one bill but this is far cleaner to just have the one meter and service. It will be right by our personal transformer

 

[herm0016]

one meter for sure. I don't mind my set up now.

pole has the meter, transformer, disconnect for solar, barn and house all mounted to it. sub panel in barn, house and on post under the solar panels ( breakers for each loop of microinverters) easy for any idiot to understand where to go to shut everything down in an emergency. well labeled. grounds all bonded in one place, etc. its a bit of a mess because things have all seperate enclosures being added at different times. would not mind combining it all in one panel.

I like QO panels the best, but that's more industrial stuff. Homeline is what i am using in my pole barn, their PON ( plug on neutral) setup is good with the long neutral bus on each side. we also use a lot of siemens which are good., they use a separate bus for the PON breakers which I like, but their neutral bars are only up by the main.

surface mount is great. a sweep in to the top for the service conductors is great, but you can't run a bunch of NM (non metallic, or romex) into a panel in the same conduit. NEC derates the conductors ( table 310.15 (C) (1) ) depending on the code articles the inspector likes better you can argue that as long as the conduit is shorter than 24 inches it's ok, but we try to avoid that discussion. see 310.15 (C) only very short nipples into a panel for NM and everything is secured properly within 12 inches of entering the enclosure. usually a piece of 2x with nicely laid out and spaced cables 2 max per staple. on an indoor panel we use all screw down NM clamps to enter the panel and secure within 12 inches.

last outdoor panel we did had 3 enterences, 2 2 in pvc and one 2.5 in, each a box adaptor in the panel glued into a TA that stuck into the house and threaded down to the sheathing. then a plastic busing on the exposed threads. about 3 inches total. 2x4 mounted directly below those 3 conduits for securing each cable.

Homeline seems to be the easiest to get parts for. having hell with siemens right now getting the proper lugs and things and having to use sqd parts. GE stuff is total junk. the premium option that I would seriously consider is Leviton, with the smart breakers and energy monitoring, but I like that kind of thing. their panels are really clean looking inside.

@Greenman yea, we use almost all halo stuff when we get to pick. sometimes customer picks and its all expensive junk.

@skyking can you give me the article # for this load to be served calc? I really think you may be over thinking the code there. my code book is on my desk right now. we use 2020 here.

for a 15 amp circ you can have 22 65 watt loads without going over 80%
22*65*1.25 = 1787.5 watts or 14.89 A

another way:
65*22=1430 watts or just less than 12 amps. which is less than 80%. .8*15=12

I don't think you will have 22 fixtures on those 2 circs.

don't forget to put a ufer ground on the plans near the mech room where it will remain accessible.

 

[skyking]

I probably am overthinking it.
So you skipped by the breaker panel question. Is my idea of a 2.5" long sweep coming up out of the slab in an interior wall-to-be a dandy idea?
Would you want it in a stud bay or on a piece of plywood surface mounted?
This will be a dedicated equipment room, at least 8x14 for all the goodies. It is right under the living room in a dark corner of the basement.
I'll bond in a ufer ground and bring it up with the pipe where ever that ends up.
All the big loads are right there in the room, with the exception of the dryer and electric range.

 

[herm0016]

conduit coming up through the slab for the service is great. if you surface mount the panel you will have to surface mount the conduit on that wall as well. I guess I am not envisioning what you are saying?

 

[skyking]

you got it. I can either bury it in a wall or sweep it up in front of it.
I don't know if you would run armored MC wire everywhere. If so, could it be exposed in that surface mount scenario?
Or would it be easier to bury it in a 6" wall so I can knock out the back as well as the top and bottom?

 

[herm0016]

i have run miles of MC. screw that. MC can be exposed, but also must be protected from mechanical damage. most of the MC code is very similar to NM. MC is usually used in commercial with steel studs and commercial fire codes.

I would probably just run it in a 6 in wall and have plywood removable panels in the bay the wires enter. you won't have enough circs to worry about having enough space for clamps on top and bottom.

 

[skyking]

cool that is the plan. I will surface mount that sub panel for backup, I think.

 

[skyking]

I think I might face the breaker panel out of that room into a hall for:
1) easier access on the odd chance a breaker trips.
2) that plywood cover behind and really, the whole equipment room can stay "Rustic" shall we say.

I could finish the outside walls and as long as I put it where it gets the 36" clear space it is good. I'll sketch up a basement layout.

 

[skyking]

PH

 

[skyking]

I got the drawings I have made to date, scanned to PDF form for emailing. I think they can get overlayed and imported into CAD now. Work has an 11" scanner to PDF function on the copier.

 

[Greenman]

I got the drawings I have made to date, scanned to PDF form for emailing. I think they can get overlayed and imported into CAD now. Work has an 11" scanner to PDF function on the copier.

I've never successfully converted a scanned image into a cad file. The one that came close was a single page and the file size was huge. Screen redraws were taking upwards of thirty seconds. Every one required more hours to clean up than it took to simply redraw them.
Let me know if it works and you end up with an editable file. It would be interesting to see if I could get Chief Architect or Visual cad to do something with it.

 

[skyking]

I will. The learning curve was too steep for me to start in CAD, so here we are.
The inspector does not need it in CAD, he is perfectly happy to work with my hand drawn plans.
The handy part is modeling the exterior and interior finishes and doing fly thoughs.

 

[skyking]

I also learned yesterday that I am committed to vinyl siding with how I have drawn it.
If I go back and change the dead wall load to allow for hardi plank lap siding, I lose ~4' of window off the south and ~2' off the east (carport) wall.
I could fix it by losing that glass. I will post up a window plan with vinyl and another with heavy siding.
basic framing with 1/2 rock and 1/2 structural sheeting is ~7 PSF with 2x6 walls.
I chose the <8 PSF option when calculating the Braced Wall Lines (BWL)
Hardi adds 2.3 PSF.
It's always something </Roseanne Roseannadanna>

I called a structural engineer with ICF experience and sent him my drawings so he can give me a quote on the basement and foundation design.
I cannot design it prescriptively due to being in seismic zone D2, it must get a stamped set of plans there.
I might knuckle down and open the wallet, and have him go over the plans and stamp the whole thing. He can wave his magic engineering wand and eliminate my siding problem.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

How does LP smartside compare weight wise? I thought it was supposed to be lighter than Hardi.

 

[Greenman]

I also learned yesterday that I am committed to vinyl siding with how I have drawn it.
If I go back and change the dead wall load to allow for hardi plank lap siding, I lose ~4' of window off the south and ~2' off the east (carport) wall.
I could fix it by losing that glass. I will post up a window plan with vinyl and another with heavy siding.
basic framing with 1/2 rock and 1/2 structural sheeting is ~7 PSF with 2x6 walls.
I chose the <8 PSF option when calculating the Braced Wall Lines (BWL)
Hardi adds 2.3 PSF.
It's always something </Roseanne Roseannadanna>

I called a structural engineer with ICF experience and sent him my drawings so he can give me a quote on the basement and foundation design.
I cannot design it prescriptively due to being in seismic zone D2, it must get a stamped set of plans there.
I might knuckle down and open the wallet, and have him go over the plans and stamp the whole thing. He can wave his magic engineering wand and eliminate my siding problem.

You lost me here. I've never seen a design that incorporated siding load into the calculations. Unless you're at the limit of the bearing capacity of the wall I don't see how it could be an issue. I also don't see how you could be anywhere near the limits on the walls with two floors and 2x6 framing.
Those loads are directly supported by the foundation. Lateral loads aren't affected by dead load on the wall, only openings. If you go over on opening size, you can run a continuous strap at the top and bottom of the window to make up the difference, though that option requires an engineers stamp.

 

[herm0016]

god, don't do cheap shitty vinyl siding. I think you may be overthinking it again. The LP product i have have used has held up well in CO.

check out matt Resingers video's on youtube.
I would be doing something like what they call monopoly framing. zip or peal and stick the whole thing, drainage plane of some sort like the mat products or just battens, and then something like smart side or hardi.

 

[herm0016]

@Greenman same here and it would be very fast to just draw this up in cad as the dims are already fleshed out a bit.

 

[skyking]

You lost me here. I've never seen a design that incorporated siding load into the calculations. Unless you're at the limit of the bearing capacity of the wall I don't see how it could be an issue. I also don't see how you could be anywhere near the limits on the walls with two floors and 2x6 framing.
Those loads are directly supported by the foundation. Lateral loads aren't affected by dead load on the wall, only openings. If you go over on opening size, you can run a continuous strap at the top and bottom of the window to make up the difference, though that option requires an engineers stamp.

All you have to do is try and do a prescriptive design and do the calculations and you would understand.

 

[Greenman]

Maybe so. I can't find any mention of siding material in the prescriptive design guidelines unless it's used as bracing.