Front passenger-side wheel grinding and squeaking...

[edprush]

While I was driving today a loud grinding and squeaking started coming from the passenger-side wheel.

I got out and noticed what looked like melted grease dripping from the center of the hub cap.

This may just be a coincidence: A few days ago I had new front-rotors, brake-pads, and bearings installed by a local automobile repair shop.

What's your guess to the problem?

 

[Jahee]

Your CV joints?

 

[KMurphy]

sounds like a bearing failure

 

[CrackRabbit]

Bearings installed wrong?
Take it back and have them fix it, and don't drive it until then unless you want your wheel to fall off.

 

[sandorski]

That's the sound a $100s leaving your wallet.

 

[dartworth]

Originally posted by: KMurphy
sounds like a bearing failure

 

[KMurphy]

One other thing: You can't drive far on that bearing squeeling like that, the entire hub assembly will come off after a few miles requiring major repair.

 

[Minerva]

Bearing seal put in backwards?

 

[Eli]

Sounds like bearing failure, but I'm only basing this on the grease comment. Could easily be improperly installed brake components causing the heat buildup too.

At any rate, take it back to them immediately.. and make them check the other hubs too! Ugh, incompetent mechanics piss me off.

 

[KMurphy]

The "melted grease" was bearing grease that has overheated and become less viscous which ran out of the cap. Tow it back in.

 

[edprush]

From the votes above it sounds like the problem is something with the bearings.

What is your guess to the cause? Do you think it was improperly packed? I'm sure the mechanic will try to tell me it was not his fault, 'you'll have to deal with the bearings manufacturer, the bearings failed, we didn't.'

 

[Squisher]

They over-tightened the castle nut. Make them install new bearings.

 

[Late4Dinner]

The mechanic chose and supplied the bearings, not you (I'm assuming). He is responsible.

I'm guessing this is a RWD vehicle. If this is the case, it is important to note that what is commonly referred to as "hub cap" is actually a wheel cover. This is important because the actual hub cap is a small (approx 2" dia.) dome-shaped piece of metal or plastic that, as the name implies, caps the hub. It is a rather important part as it keeps dirt out and, more importantly, the grease in the hub (which houses the bearings).

Look at the center of the wheel with the wheel cover off. Do you see the aforementioned dome-shaped part or a castle nut with a cotter pin through it (A castle nut is a large hexagonal nut with slots cut into it. The cotter pin locks it in place)?

If you see the castle nut/cotter pin, that means the mechanic either put the cap on incorrectly and it fell off or he didn't put it on at all. Either way, without it most of the grease was thrown off as the wheel spun, leaving the bearing dry. As you might guess, that's a bad thing.

If you see the cap, then the bearing is defective, the mechanic didn't grease it, or as Squisher mentioned, he over-tightened the castle nut. Either way, it's still his responsibility.

To address the brake question, I think it can safely be ruled out. First off, it wouldn't make a grinding sound. Secondly, you would have noticed it right away as a strange handling charateristic or, soon enough, smoke and a very distinctive burning brake pad smell coming from the wheel.

Take the car back to the mechanic and demand he fix it. Good luck.

 

[edprush]

Originally posted by: Late4Dinner
The mechanic chose and supplied the bearings, not you (I'm assuming). He is responsible.

I'm guessing this is a RWD vehicle. If this is the case, it is important to note that what is commonly referred to as "hub cap" is actually a wheel cover. This is important because the actual hub cap is a small (approx 2" dia.) dome-shaped piece of metal or plastic that, as the name implies, caps the hub. It is a rather important part as it keeps dirt out and, more importantly, the grease in the hub (which houses the bearings).

Look at the center of the wheel with the wheel cover off. Do you see the aforementioned dome-shaped part or a castle nut with a cotter pin through it (A castle nut is a large hexagonal nut with slots cut into it. The cotter pin locks it in place)?

If you see the castle nut/cotter pin, that means the mechanic either put the cap on incorrectly and it fell off or he didn't put it on at all. Either way, without it most of the grease was thrown off as the wheel spun, leaving the bearing dry. As you might guess, that's a bad thing.

If you see the cap, then the bearing is defective, the mechanic didn't grease it, or as Squisher mentioned, he over-tightened the castle nut. Either way, it's still his responsibility.

To address the brake question, I think it can safely be ruled out. First off, it wouldn't make a grinding sound. Secondly, you would have noticed it right away as a strange handling charateristic or, soon enough, smoke and a very distinctive burning brake pad smell coming from the wheel.

Take the car back to the mechanic and demand he fix it. Good luck.

Yes, it is a rear-wheel drive car.

I knew what I was referring to wasn't a "hub cap" but I couldn't think of the term. Thanks for the help Late4Dinner.

How can I determine if the bad bearing installation has caused other problems. I drove the car about 1 mile (at 5 mph) when it started grinding and squealing. But I have put about 75 miles on the vehicle since the mechanic worked on the rotors and brakes but I didn't notice any grease or grinding sounds for the for those first 75 miles.

Could I have ruined more than the bearings? I am sure the mechanic won't admit that the bad bearings could have done any damage so I better educate myself to the other issues that may have been caused by the bearings.

 

[edprush]

Originally posted by: Late4Dinner

I'm guessing this is a RWD vehicle. If this is the case, it is important to note that what is commonly referred to as "hub cap" is actually a wheel cover. This is important because the actual hub cap is a small (approx 2" dia.) dome-shaped piece of metal or plastic that, as the name implies, caps the hub. It is a rather important part as it keeps dirt out and, more importantly, the grease in the hub (which houses the bearings).

Look at the center of the wheel with the wheel cover off. Do you see the aforementioned dome-shaped part or a castle nut with a cotter pin through it (A castle nut is a large hexagonal nut with slots cut into it. The cotter pin locks it in place)?

If you see the castle nut/cotter pin, that means the mechanic either put the cap on incorrectly and it fell off or he didn't put it on at all. Either way, without it most of the grease was thrown off as the wheel spun, leaving the bearing dry. As you might guess, that's a bad thing.

If you see the cap, then the bearing is defective, the mechanic didn't grease it, or as Squisher mentioned, he over-tightened the castle nut. Either way, it's still his responsibility.

I see the cap but I was able to take it off very easily with two fingers.

Under the cap was castle nut with a cotter key through it.

BUT I ALSO SEE little metal shavings mixed in with the grease. Which part/item do you think the shavings came from?


Yikes.

 

[Late4Dinner]

I knew what I was referring to wasn't a "hub cap" but I couldn't think of the term.

Don't worry about it. Everyone calls wheel covers hubcaps, myself included. I clarified purely for diagnostic purposes.

How can I determine if the bad bearing installation has caused other problems.

You would have to jack the car up and remove the rotor/drum to perform an inspection. If you're feeling ambitious and have some tools, I can walk you through the process. Any damage would be limited to the immediate area.

I drove the car about 1 mile (at 5 mph) when it started grinding and squealing. But I have put about 75 miles on the vehicle since the mechanic worked on the rotors and brakes but I didn't notice any grease or grinding sounds for the for those first 75 miles.

This suggests a grease-loss situation. Those first 75 miles are where the grease was lost and the critical damage occured. That last mile was mere icing on the cake. You mentioned in your later post that the cap was loose, but present, so that's likely not where the grease was escaping. As Minerva mentioned (and I forgot to), an incorrect, incorrectly installed, damaged or missing seal can also let the grease escape. The seal contains the grease on the inboard side of the wheel, so the escaped grease should be found on the inboard side of the rim and in the wheel well. Seal inspection would require removal of the rotor/drum.

Could I have ruined more than the bearings?

Yes. See below.

BUT I ALSO SEE little metal shavings mixed in with the grease. Which part/item do you think the shavings came from?

If you're lucky, they're from the bearing race (The outer ring of the bearing that fits against rotor/drum. Some, but not all, bearings also include an inner race that fits against the spindle). If you're not so lucky, they are from the spindle (a conical metal rod that the wheel mounts to). Bearings are (relatively) cheap, spindles aren't. There's an outside chance that it's from the bearing rollers, but they're made out of much harder steel that's unlikely to give out before races or spindles.

As I said above, I can walk you through the rotor/drum removal process, if you want. Lemme know (If you do, please include year/make/model of the vehicle and specify if it's disc or drum brakes).

Remember, you paid GOOD MONEY for the work performed. You have a right to a satisfactory job.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: Late4Dinner
<snip>

Top work L4D. Great post.

 

[edprush]

Originally posted by: Late4Dinner

As I said above, I can walk you through the rotor/drum removal process, if you want. Lemme know (If you do, please include year/make/model of the vehicle and specify if it's disc or drum brakes).

Remember, you paid GOOD MONEY for the work performed. You have a right to a satisfactory job.

I do have some tools and wouldn't mind giving it a try but at this time I am only able to do the work outside and it's presently a rainy, cold, muddy mess.

I should be able to get the mechanic to work on it Monday morning. Is there anything I can ask him to see (or have him provide me with the parts he replaces) that may give me a clue to additional damage?

I am sure he won't volunteer that there is spindle damage, especially if his work may have caused it.

 

[skyking]

If you want them to foot the repair bill, don't touch it yourself. That would give them an easy out.
As far as additional damage, I'd demand to see the spindle and associated parts before they finish reassembling it.
There is one little thing that can give out symptoms like this, but I really doubt it in this case. The grease can be from sloppy work, and all that grinding and noise can come frome one little piece of gravel that got behind the dust guard. Happened twice to me in the last 5 years on my car. Sounds like crap, but get it out and no harm done.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: edprush

Originally posted by: Late4Dinner
The mechanic chose and supplied the bearings, not you (I'm assuming). He is responsible.

I'm guessing this is a RWD vehicle. If this is the case, it is important to note that what is commonly referred to as "hub cap" is actually a wheel cover. This is important because the actual hub cap is a small (approx 2" dia.) dome-shaped piece of metal or plastic that, as the name implies, caps the hub. It is a rather important part as it keeps dirt out and, more importantly, the grease in the hub (which houses the bearings).

Look at the center of the wheel with the wheel cover off. Do you see the aforementioned dome-shaped part or a castle nut with a cotter pin through it (A castle nut is a large hexagonal nut with slots cut into it. The cotter pin locks it in place)?

If you see the castle nut/cotter pin, that means the mechanic either put the cap on incorrectly and it fell off or he didn't put it on at all. Either way, without it most of the grease was thrown off as the wheel spun, leaving the bearing dry. As you might guess, that's a bad thing.

If you see the cap, then the bearing is defective, the mechanic didn't grease it, or as Squisher mentioned, he over-tightened the castle nut. Either way, it's still his responsibility.

To address the brake question, I think it can safely be ruled out. First off, it wouldn't make a grinding sound. Secondly, you would have noticed it right away as a strange handling charateristic or, soon enough, smoke and a very distinctive burning brake pad smell coming from the wheel.

Take the car back to the mechanic and demand he fix it. Good luck.

Yes, it is a rear-wheel drive car.

I knew what I was referring to wasn't a "hub cap" but I couldn't think of the term. Thanks for the help Late4Dinner.

How can I determine if the bad bearing installation has caused other problems. I drove the car about 1 mile (at 5 mph) when it started grinding and squealing. But I have put about 75 miles on the vehicle since the mechanic worked on the rotors and brakes but I didn't notice any grease or grinding sounds for the for those first 75 miles.

Could I have ruined more than the bearings? I am sure the mechanic won't admit that the bad bearings could have done any damage so I better educate myself to the other issues that may have been caused by the bearings.

Nothing else should be damaged as long as you've really only driven with it squeaky for a mile.

I hear cars going down the street all the time with bad wheel bearings. I always cringe, but unless the bearing locks up.. I don't think there is much that can be damaged.. Maybe from the excessive heat. Stay off the highway.

Edit: Listen to L4D, he appears to be more knowledgable than I. This case is probably different from a normal wheel bearing gone bad, since it was a botched replacement....

You need to take it back to them immediately. Metal shavings are an indication of a huge problem.

If you think he's going to be so shady about it, why did you go to him in the first place? Read your receipt/paperwork, what kind've warranty is offered? It's usually fairly long on brake-related work.

Unless you're a pushover, there would be no way for him to deny that his actions(or inactions...) were at fault.

 

[Late4Dinner]

I do have some tools and wouldn't mind giving it a try but at this time I am only able to do the work outside and it's presently a rainy, cold, muddy mess.

Yeah, working outdoors can suck, and don't get me started about working on a gravel surface:disgust:. It's probably not worth the hassle. Skyking makes a good point about giving the mechanic an easy out, which is why I would have recommended working on it where it can be easily towed out and not driving it at all after inspection, so the mechanic can't claim the damage occured after you had it apart.

I should be able to get the mechanic to work on it Monday morning. Is there anything I can ask him to see (or have him provide me with the parts he replaces) that may give me a clue to additional damage?

Again, like skyking said, inspect the bearings (there are 2, inboard and outboard) and the spindle. You might want to bring a camera to get some pictures of the spindle, just in case. There is little chance that the damage would extend beyond the bearings and spindle.

 

[edprush]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: edprush

Originally posted by: Late4Dinner

Unless you're a pushover, there would be no way for him to deny that his actions(or inactions...) were at fault.

Sadly, that is one of my many problems. I wouldn't be the bit surprised if he has me paying for the new spindle. He already won't pay for the car I am renting until Monday and the $100 towing to his shop.

Lesson learned.

 

[edprush]

I forgot to mention that I think the wheel started wobbling right when the grinding noise started. I slowed down immediately and drove the 1 mile home slowly so I wasn't able to get up to a speed where a wobble would be noticeable.

If I jack the front end up, will trying to manually wobble the tire/wheel be enough to diagnose a spindle problem?

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: edprush
I forgot to mention that I think the wheel started wobbling right when the grinding noise started. I slowed down immediately and drove the 1 mile home slowly so I wasn't able to get up to a speed where a wobble would be noticeable.

If I jack the front end up, will trying to manually wobble the tire/wheel be enough to diagnose a spindle problem?

If it felt like those things were happening, they probably were. Not a good sign.

Let me think here, as again I'm not specifically experienced with this type of problem..

Get some good light down there... I don't know if you will be able to tell the difference between bearing slop, and spindle slop, but you might..

In either case, If there is any significant wobble to the tire(1/4"? more? less?), DO NOT drive it.......

You can also give it a spin. Feel for binding, see if you can tell where the noise is comming from. Make sure moving the tire moves the drivetrain. Again, if anything is obviously seriously fscked, don't drive it.

You need to appear knowledgeable to the mechanic.The wobble test is a very common, basic wheel troubleshooting test. If you tell him that you did this, along with all of the other symptoms, he will be listening. It's obvious that you're not completely mechanically ignorant. Use this to your advantage if you can. If you're going to attempt to make them fix this, and assuming the car is not drivable, it will need to be towed.. the idea being you can use the above to convey that it isn't safe to drive the car.

Are you just assuming that he's going to try and screw you, or what? If his work really caused the splines to shear off, that should alarm him greatly - you could have lost your wheel, crashed, been injured and be suing him for a lot more than it would cost for him to repair his mistake and make a happy customer.

If you just know how this guy is based on interactions with him.. I don't know. That's tough.

The worst possible scenario is that you have to take it to another shop and have them fix the one hub. And have them check the others...

$$$$$$$$$............

Don't assume that the mechanic is dishonest just because though.

 

[Late4Dinner]

I wouldn't be the bit surprised if he has me paying for the new spindle. He already won't pay for the car I am renting until Monday and the $100 towing to his shop.

Okay, so you've spoken to the mechanic, and I'm guessing you were nice about it. These were sound enough steps to take, though being a dick might have yielded better results. He is taking an adversarial posture.

The thing is, there is no way this is not his fault. He knows that. His attitude is an attempt to intimidate you into rolling over and shutting up. I'm guessing if you have him fix it, he will try to charge you full price for the additional work. Meanwhile, he can hide the evidence of his mistakes.

I think your next step would be to contact the mechanic (if your car is already there, go there in person, if not, you can do it over the phone). Tell him, nicely, your lawyer advised you to take the car to a different shop, document all damage that has occured, and file a lawsuit againt him and his shop. Tell him that's more hassle you want to go through and if he just fixes the car and reimburses your expenses (towing, rental car), you'll be more than happy to just put it behind you.

There's an even chance he'll go for it, if so, great. If not, your next step depends on if the car is at the shop or not. If it is, do not leave, call a tow truck immediately (you may want to have a cell phone on you as I doubt he'll let you use his) and have the car removed from his lot. Stay with the car until the tow truck arrives. When the car is off his lot, you can follow the steps outlined in the above paragraph. It might also be a good idea to call a lawyer at that point. Be sure to keep records of all expenses, including lawyer fees.

I forgot to mention that I think the wheel started wobbling right when the grinding noise started.

That is to be expected. As the metal was lost it created excessive clearance, causing the wobble.

If I jack the front end up, will trying to manually wobble the tire/wheel be enough to diagnose a spindle problem?

No, the only way to determine where the damage lies is with disassembly and inspection.

Sorry this is turning out to be such a pain in the ass. Unfortunately, there are all too many bad mechanics out there, which is why it's so important to treasure the good ones. Good luck!