Frustrating quest for a mid-range phone <rant>

[yankeeDDL]

You still haven't even mentioned performance as an issue with the Nexus 5. If you aren't pushing the performance of that phone, you won't notice a huge difference moving to an 820.

Performance is marginally an issue at the moment, but overall, an update would be nice because of storage, battery and camera.
When I started looking into the current offering I could not believe that there were so many nice 5.5" phones, while the selection for something smaller than 5.2" is nearly non-existent.
I repeat that part of the issue is that the improvements over the SD800 have been marginal over the past 3 years. The SD810 is noticeably faster, but only until before it heats up, then it may even get slower.
So to be a worthy upgrade, it has to be an SD820, or the latest Exynos (Exynos 8890 Octa, of the S7).

Aside for my personal preferences, I just don't understand why phone manufacturers keep reinventing the wheel, instead of using perfectly good phone (see, the Nexus5), and upgrade its internals.
I imagine how a Nexus5, with a newer camera (doesn't have to be the top of the line, but it should be easy today to get beyond the mediocre 8Mpix), a dual sim arrangement, supporting an SD card, and updated, lower-consumption chips, would easily be below the 399eur price of 3 years ago.
Why so much effort on 5.5" phablets? I cannot understand.

 

[yankeeDDL]

Most 5.5 inch phones are about 5 mm wider than a 5inch to 5.2 inch phone depending on the bezel size.

In other words we are talking a 1/5 of an inch wider. Now 1/5th of an inch may not seem like much, but that is the thickness of 3 dimes. But what really matters is can you one handly reach the other end of the screen with your thumb or other fingers when you hold a phone one handed. Can you use the phone while doing something else at the same time such as holding your young child's hand?

[...]

When you tell someone to get over it...one of the most common counter arguments is someone doing a retort where one of the words is a four letter word. There is a reason why that is socially acceptable, you were inflammatory and they responded with a inflammatory reaction statement.

Cheers to that, and thanks for the detailed feedback. I wholeheartedly agree.
I guess he totally missed the point:
1) I did try 5.5" phones. No, it did not kill me, but it was unreasonably uncomfortable, both to carry and to use.
2) I am not saying that there should't be 5.5" phones, but considering that I am taller than average, it begs the question of how many people would benefit from a more reasonably sized phone.

 

[yankeeDDL]

Actually, with the relatively high clockspeed of the Krait cores (IPC is close to on par) the Snapdragon 800 is still significantly faster than many A53 based SoCs. Considering Armv8 tends to give a 30% boost in IPC, this is quite an impressive showing from Krait. The power efficiency aspect in SD800 probably came from each core being on their own voltage plane. You'd lose die space, but gain efficiency in exchange. I feel the SD800 was a much more forward-looking design than the later 810.

Not many apps will challenge the SD800 to a significant degree, let alone modern A57 and A72 based SoCs with a half-competent GPU. Not counting inefficiencies in code, we seem to have hit that "good enough" point for most basic uses. As it stands, even the most demanding games on the app store don't seem to compare well in visuals compared to titles on the PS3/360, unless you count benchmarks.

Completely agree. Hence (part of) my frustration.
3 years down the road and there's no clear improvement over the 800 (well, except the 820).

 

[yankeeDDL]

Galaxy S6 is under $250 on swappa. What is frustrating about that?

To my knowledge, a Galaxy S6 does not have an SD card.

The closest thing to what I am looking for today is an S7.
I would happily swap the QHD screen for an FHD for a price closer to 400eur, than the current 570eur.

 

[cbrunny]

By the way, tell me, please, what phone has a display which is at least FHD, between 4.7-5.2", with an S820 and expandable storage?
Basically only the Galaxy S7 (580eur) and the HTC 10 (>700eur).

You want a midrange with a Snapdragon 820? You know what midrange means, right?

 

[gorcorps]

We've had the screen size discussion several times recently, and you're right... there's very few companies putting any effort into that screen size anymore. Frankly if I was that hung up on the size of the phone, I'd have to take a long look at apple, as they're the only ones bothering with phones in that size range.

 

[KeithP]

I am guessing the difference in cost to the OEM between building your mid-range phone and say a typical high end phone is not that much. However, they can get a higher price and thus more profit, on the high end phone.

Plus with a mid range phone compromises have to be made. Where do you spend the money? More on the camera? More on the battery or the screen? Do you drop the SD card but offer more storage, etc.

The problem with this is while there may, or may not, be a big market for a "mid range" phone like you describe, I guarantee you that whatever that demand is, it is hopelessly segmented between people that rather see more of more/better of one thing and less of the other.

I am not saying that there should't be 5.5" phones, but considering that I am taller than average, it begs the question of how many people would benefit from a more reasonably sized phone.

"I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means"
http://begthequestion.info/



-KeithP

 

[Artdeco]

To my knowledge, a Galaxy S6 does not have an SD card.

The closest thing to what I am looking for today is an S7.
I would happily swap the QHD screen for an FHD for a price closer to 400eur, than the current 570eur.

And that's not going to happen. Why are you wasting our time playing this game?

 

[poofyhairguy]

I think by either late this year or early next year true midrange devices will have the 820.

The Nexus 5 having a top tier SoC so close to its release was kinda a one-time fluke.

 

[sweenish]

It seems unbelievable that with such a wide variety of phones, one has a hard time finding something suitable.
I am looking for a decent phone, 4.9~5", maximum 5.2" screen, Full HD, no Pentile.
Good camera, good battery and, as a plus, a fingerprint sensor, all at max $400 (350eur).

Or, I want a marvel of engineering on the cheap.

I guess you missed my point. 399eur 3 years ago bought me a Nexus 5.

Good camera, good battery and, as a plus, a fingerprint sensor, all at max $400 (350eur).

Hilarious. I realize Nexus 5X prices are inflated in Europe, but that's the closest you'll get to everything on your wishlist. Spend more, or have realistic expectations.

 

[pete6032]

Could you buy a US nexus 5x and have it imported for cheaper?

 

[Artdeco]

Could you buy a US nexus 5x and have it imported for cheaper?

They have a special VAT value added tax on electronics.

 

[yankeeDDL]

You want a midrange with a Snapdragon 820? You know what midrange means, right?

Absolutely. I think I am sounding like a broken record, but the Nexus 5, when came out, had the SD800, decent battery, decent camera, decent screen, all under 400eur.

There are MANY phones with 5.5" screens below 400eur. All with decent batteries, cameras and some even with a fingerprint sensor: I really don't think that what I am looking for is beyond expectation.
Make the OnePlus 3 with a 5.0-5.1" screen, and I'll buy it tomorrow.

 

[yankeeDDL]

Or, I want a marvel of engineering on the cheap.

Hilarious. I realize Nexus 5X prices are inflated in Europe, but that's the closest you'll get to everything on your wishlist. Spend more, or have realistic expectations.

I am sorry but I don't think you got the point.
I don't want a "marvel" of engineering on the cheap.
I want a phone which is noticeably better than a 3 year old one.
Today, unfortunately, this means that the CPU has to be an SD820, since pretty much anything in between is either only marginally better, or even worse than the SD800.

The truth is that today any phone with the SD820 is extremely high-end, so it is accordingly priced (again, the Galaxy S7 being the closest thing), while pretty much anything below that, is just not worth for upgrading a 3 year old phone.
A used S5 is the only good suggestion I saw so far, but an S5 is also close to the end of its update cycle (it is a 3 year old phone too, after all) so it does not entice me much.

 

[yankeeDDL]

"I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means"
http://begthequestion.info/

-KeithP

I'd be damned. I have been a "BTQ abuser" my whole life, and did not know it.

 

[cbrunny]

Absolutely. I think I am sounding like a broken record, but the Nexus 5, when came out, had the SD800, decent battery, decent camera, decent screen, all under 400eur.

There are MANY phones with 5.5" screens below 400eur. All with decent batteries, cameras and some even with a fingerprint sensor: I really don't think that what I am looking for is beyond expectation.
Make the OnePlus 3 with a 5.0-5.1" screen, and I'll buy it tomorrow.

You're forgetting that the Nxus 5 had terrible build quality. I owned two because of how bad they were. Moving from a Nexus 5 to a phone with actual good build quality is a night and day difference. Not to mention the screen and glass were of far higher quality on the more premium phone. You're talking specifically, and exclusively about a S820 and a 5 inch screen. Beyond expectation? No probably not. But it isn't going to do anyone any favours.

Just get an Xperia X Perf and be done with it.

 

[sweenish]

Absolutely. I think I am sounding like a broken record, but the Nexus 5, when came out, had the SD800

Not a lie.

decent battery

Lie. Paltry at the time.

decent camera

Lie. Mediocre at the time. Just markedly better than previous Nexus phones.

decent screen, all under 400eur.

Not a lie.

There are MANY phones with 5.5" screens below 400eur. All with decent batteries, cameras and some even with a fingerprint sensor: I really don't think that what I am looking for is beyond expectation.
Make the OnePlus 3 with a 5.0-5.1" screen, and I'll buy it tomorrow.

All this reflection about the Nexus 5, and you can't even be bothered to know that it certainly compromised to hit its price point, yet you are refusing to compromise. So yes, you want a marvel of engineering on the cheap. You're checklist is basically a flagship phone. You essentially want an S7 or HTC 10 for half the price. Like I said, either pay more or adjust your expectations.

And we're still 4 months away from this year's Nexus phones, and one of them is very likely to check most of your boxes if European pricing can not get screwed up this year.

So why don't we let this topic just die until after this year's Nexus phones are revealed, and then you can go unicorn hunting some more.

All this while refusing to take into account that mobile SoCs simply aren't evolving as fast as they used to be. The SD800 is still a pretty great chip. The gains in the last couple years haven't been significant. Basically like desktop CPUs over the last decade.

But sure, keep trying to convince everyone that the Nexus was so much better than it actually was, and that your flagship specs should totally be priced in the mid-range.

 

[antihelten]

I really don't understand why people are so up in arms about the OPs wishlist.

He's basically asking for a OnePlus 3 with a smaller screen. The OnePlus 3 is $400 so surely a smaller version could also be done at $400.

 

[sweenish]

Probably because they keep acting like the Nexus 5 was everything they wanted.

And in spite of the super-long post about one-handed reachability, a 5.5" screen easily boils down to preference and nothing more. Being tall has no bearing, as the Note series sells exceptionally well in their home country (hint: Koreans are not a tall people). So if people could stop using that as a justification, that'd be greeaat.

As a quick aside, for the things a smartphone is used for today, the larger screens are so much better. But that is just my own personal bias.

So, if they don't prefer a 5.5" screen to the point that it's a no-go, and refuse to go after one of the Sony phones, or wait for the new Moto G or Nexus phones that have yet to be announced, it's not like they aren't unicorn hunting right now.

OnePlus hit their price point with a garbage AMOLED and no customer support. Their dash charge is 100% proprietary, and will only work with their own cables and wall chargers. I don't recall if updates were mentioned but enjoy your official Android N 6-8 months after its release, or deal with someone's ROM in the meantime (bugs: You tell me). So no, even the mighty OP3 doesn't hit all the checkboxes even ignoring screen size.

 

[yankeeDDL]

Not a lie.

Lie. Paltry at the time.

Lie. Mediocre at the time. Just markedly better than previous Nexus phones.

Not a lie.



All this reflection about the Nexus 5, and you can't even be bothered to know that it certainly compromised to hit its price point, yet you are refusing to compromise. So yes, you want a marvel of engineering on the cheap. You're checklist is basically a flagship phone. You essentially want an S7 or HTC 10 for half the price. Like I said, either pay more or adjust your expectations.

And we're still 4 months away from this year's Nexus phones, and one of them is very likely to check most of your boxes if European pricing can not get screwed up this year.

So why don't we let this topic just die until after this year's Nexus phones are revealed, and then you can go unicorn hunting some more.

All this while refusing to take into account that mobile SoCs simply aren't evolving as fast as they used to be. The SD800 is still a pretty great chip. The gains in the last couple years haven't been significant. Basically like desktop CPUs over the last decade.

But sure, keep trying to convince everyone that the Nexus was so much better than it actually was, and that your flagship specs should totally be priced in the mid-range.

I'm not sure if it is me and my English which is not clear, or that you are not understanding me.
I said, "give me an OnePlus3 with 5" screen" and you tell me that I'm not willing to compromise? Have you read my first post?
I am not looking for top-notch performance (the OnePlus3 has and SD820, but it is hardly competing with the S7 in terms of performance), not for the best camera (and average camera would be plenty), and an average battery and, if possible, also a fingerprint sensor.

I am not trying to convince anyone that the Nexus 5 was better than it was.
We can argue that 3 year ago the Nexus 5 had "mediocre", not "average" cameras: to me, that's nitpicking: there were plenty of better and worse cameras and I can even agree on the "mediocre": can you agree that a "mediocre" camera today is noticeably better than that of the N5?

I am saying that 3 years later, I should be able to get something noticeably better, for the same price. I can't. Not if I don't want to go to 5.5".
This, to me, it means that there are no mid-range phones, today, worthy of upgrading from a Nexus 5, and from the several suggestions that I have read, I am right.

 

[yankeeDDL]

You're forgetting that the Nxus 5 had terrible build quality. I owned two because of how bad they were. Moving from a Nexus 5 to a phone with actual good build quality is a night and day difference. Not to mention the screen and glass were of far higher quality on the more premium phone. You're talking specifically, and exclusively about a S820 and a 5 inch screen. Beyond expectation? No probably not. But it isn't going to do anyone any favours.

Just get an Xperia X Perf and be done with it.

"Terrible" build may be subjective.
I am a heavy daily user and had no issues for 3 years.

The Xperia X Performance in Europe costs 729eur: significantly more than a Galaxy S7. It is undoubtedly a good phone, but it is far from what I am looking for.

 

[poofyhairguy]

(the OnePlus3 has and SD820, but it is hardly competing with the S7 in terms of performance)

That makes no sense. The US Galaxy S7 has the same SoC. They directly compete in terms of performance.

I am saying that 3 years later, I should be able to get something noticeably better, for the same price. I can't.

That is what the 5X is- a better phone on paper than the Nexus 5 (in some ways by far) for near the same price (or way less for us over here in the States). From what I understand your main complaint it is has an 808, even though an 808 is better than (especially on the GPU) the Nexus 5's 800. Even if the SoC isn't all better, upgrades like the much better camera or fingerprint reader makes the 5X "noticeably better."

Ignoring the 5X for a second, the Galaxy S6 also hits every single mark for you (if you can find it discounted, I don't know European prices so I have to assume based on what I see). The Galaxy S6 is:

1. Faster - its SoC slays the 800 and it has way faster storage which is actually a bigger deal.

2. Has a way better camera

3. Has a decent battery life with a 6.0 ROM on it

4. Fingerprint sensor

5. Has the exact size of screen you want

The Galaxy S6 hits every requirement (if the price isn't crazy in Europe) easily, but obviously you are Nexus-focused so there must be "oh and no Touchwiz bloat" requirement you aren't stating.

Given that, what you are really complaining about OP isn't that value hasn't moved forward since the Nexus 5 but instead that:

1. Phones overall are bigger and people prefer bigger phones leaving fewer options for true 5 inch phones

2. Google's flagship is the big model not the 5 inch model

3. Smartphone SoCs have somewhat stagnated and we aren't getting six month refreshes anymore

4. The 5X kinda sucks not on paper

And I can't argue with any of that. No one can. But that isn't the same thing as "I can't do better than my Nexus 5 for the price."

 

[yankeeDDL]

That makes no sense. The US Galaxy S7 has the same SoC. They directly compete in terms of performance.

That is what the 5X is- a better phone on paper than the Nexus 5 (in some ways by far) for near the same price (or way less for us over here in the States). From what I understand your main complaint it is has an 808, even though an 808 is better than (especially on the GPU) the Nexus 5's 800. Even if the SoC isn't all better, upgrades like the much better camera or fingerprint reader makes the 5X "noticeably better."

Ignoring the 5X for a second, the Galaxy S6 also hits every single mark for you (if you can find it discounted, I don't know European prices so I have to assume based on what I see). The Galaxy S6 is:

1. Faster - its SoC slays the 800 and it has way faster storage which is actually a bigger deal.

2. Has a way better camera

3. Has a decent battery life with a 6.0 ROM on it

4. Fingerprint sensor

5. Has the exact size of screen you want

The Galaxy S6 hits every requirement (if the price isn't crazy in Europe) easily, but obviously you are Nexus-focused so there must be "oh and no Touchwiz bloat" requirement you aren't stating.

Given that, what you are really complaining about OP isn't that value hasn't moved forward since the Nexus 5 but instead that:

1. Phones overall are bigger and people prefer bigger phones leaving fewer options for true 5 inch phones

2. Google's flagship is the big model not the 5 inch model

3. Smartphone SoCs have somewhat stagnated and we aren't getting six month refreshes anymore

4. The 5X kinda sucks not on paper

And I can't argue with any of that. No one can. But that isn't the same thing as "I can't do better than my Nexus 5 for the price."

I am starting to get the feeling that it is me that doesn't know how to use a forum.
I have stated exactly the issue and the reason for a rant in my 1st post.
I don't think I should repeat "everything" in every reply, no? Or am I mistaken? I am honestly asking: I don't mean to be offensive ()

Now, the Nexus 5X is noticeably better, but in Europe costs nearly as much as a Galaxy S7 (479eur vs 560eur). I know, it is not your fault, but still, in Europe, the Nexus 5X is by no means comparable in terms of pricing to the N5.
Also, the Nexus 5X comes only with 32GB and it is not expandable. 3 years ago, and with an 8Mpix camera, 32GB might have been sufficient. Fast forward to today, add 12Mpix camera, and 32GB don't cut it.

The S6 also does not have microSD, but at least it comes in 64GB (515eur).
At that price, I prefer an S7 (569eur), and I'll add an SD card.
I am going to wait to see the (possible) HTC Nexus: if it is not what I am looking for, I'll go for the S7.

I am not focused on Nexus (although I do prefer it), but Google has gone crazy, in my opinion, with the 5X (underwhelming) and the 6P (too large).

And I agree with your overview: phones have gotten bigger, CPU have stagnated for 3 years.
Which were exactly my points: despite, literally, thousands of phones, there are no mid-range (read, 400eur) phones which are noticeably better than a 3 year old Nexus 5.
EDIT: conversely, there are gazillions of decent phones at 5.5" at very low prices.

After all, basically, the leading phones today are Galaxy S6/S7 (5.1") and the iPhone (4.7", but with "huge" frame): one would think that other companies would try to get a piece of the pie with midrange phones in those sizes. Apparently, not.

 

[JimKiler]

Wow, even the Moto G4 and G4 Plus have 5.4" and 5.5" screens respectively.

Good thing I have no issues with my Moto X Pure's 5.5" screen. in fact it just helps me not want a tablet thereby saving money.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I am starting to get the feeling that it is me that doesn't know how to use a forum.
I have stated exactly the issue and the reason for a rant in my 1st post.
I don't think I should repeat "everything" in every reply, no? Or am I mistaken? I am honestly asking: I don't mean to be offensive ()

I am not trying to offend, just trying to demonstrate that value has improved in the same market segment.

The S6 also does not have microSD, but at least it comes in 64GB (515eur).

I will note the Nexus 5 also doesn't have a Microsd slot and never had that much internal storage. By your requirements (besides MicroSD which I think more internal storage mitigates) the Galaxy S6 hits the mark, it just bugs you that the S7 exists and that its better. And I get that, who doesn't want the best? Problem is you have to pay for it.

Which were exactly my points: despite, literally, thousands of phones, there are no mid-range (read, 400eur) phones which are noticeably better than a 3 year old Nexus 5.

One issue we are having is that we mostly just focus all on the same phones on this forum- phones available in the US market made by brands we are comfy with.

In Europe you probably have different options that we don't get, and one of those might fit the bill. Like for example the Xiaomi Mi 5 seems to have everything you want but expandable storage, but that isn't on our mental map because can't buy it. I bet there are many other phones we are ignoring.

After all, basically, the leading phones today are Galaxy S6/S7 (5.1") and the iPhone (4.7", but with "huge" frame): one would think that other companies would try to get a piece of the pie with midrange phones in those sizes. Apparently, not.

One thing I think it's important to note is screen size doesn't always equate to footprint.

For example, the aforementioned iPhone with a 4.7 inch has the same practical size as a LG G3 with a 5.5 inch screen:

So I would argue the Android market is trying to give us both- large screen plus smaller sizes. The Galaxy Edge series is the ultimate example of that. Just judging by screen size alone is misleading.

What the market is really missing is something like a iPhone SE competitor. Outside of Sony no one makes a decent small Android phone.