Fscking speed traps

[timswim78]

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: timswim78
I'll put in this way. All of the gangs and drug dealers have lookouts at every corner. When they see a cop pulling over someone, they know that that officer is occupied and that there is now one or two less sets of eyes and ears patroling the streets. If it is a frivelous offense (my opinion is that 30Mph in a 20MPh zone is frivelous.)

If there is an area where speeding is a safety concern, than I am all for speed traps. The more people that get slowed down, the better.

Really? So as soon as an officer makes a stop they start selling drugs and killing people like hotcakes, huh? I guess what we should really do is just park in front of suspected gang members and drug dealers and stare at them our entire shift.

I added some information to the above post. Please take a look at it.

Also, I think that rural America is MUCH different from urban America in the roles of police officers. Of course, people are not going to start shooting each other, but YES THEY WILL start victimizing innocent people and selling drugs when they know that the local officer is otherwise occupied.

 

[bradruth]

Originally posted by: timswim78
...I think that everyone would be safer and better served if the cop was on the beat, making his/her presence known in the area. I think that when cops take on the roll of enforcer for little stuff like this, it makes the cops less approachable by people who are not serious offenders. This in turn, isolates the police from the community and vice versa. Please keep in mind, that I am talking about a violent, urban area...

Look up the "Kansas City Preventative Patrol Study."

 

[timswim78]

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: timswim78
...I think that everyone would be safer and better served if the cop was on the beat, making his/her presence known in the area. I think that when cops take on the roll of enforcer for little stuff like this, it makes the cops less approachable by people who are not serious offenders. This in turn, isolates the police from the community and vice versa. Please keep in mind, that I am talking about a violent, urban area...

Look up the "Kansas City Preventative Patrol Study."

OK, I looked it up. I'll read it in more detail now, because this is something that I am truely interested in. Among other things, one summary of it says "isolating officer in the patrol cars and enslaving them to the radio make police less aware of and less responsive to community needs."

I'm not quite sure what your point is (maybe you could clarify for me), but the statement agrees with my point. I think that in violent urban areas, police should be involved in community policing, on foot. Not stuck in cars, pulling over speeders.

Maybe while I'm reading thie KC Prev. Patrol Study, maybe you wouldn't mind looking up studies about why community policing has been successful in many areas.

BTW, I am really interested in discussing this intelligently and am not trying to flame anyone.

Also, after reading some of my earlier posts, I think that I should clarify some things.:
1. In many cases, I am all for speed traps, especially in areas where people often display unsafe driving beahviors. If we can get people to slow down, stop running red lights, and etc. everyone will be more safer.

2. However, in many situations I think that a cop's time is not best spent by patrolling the streets in a car and pulling over people who are going 10MPH over the speed limit. I really think that this can isolate the officer from the community. Why do I think this? Because I think that it reinforces a mentality of "zero tolerance" which we know does not work.

 

[bradruth]

Originally posted by: timswim78
OK, I looked it up. I'll read it in more detail now, because this is something that I am truely interested in. Among other things, one summary of it says "isolating officer in the patrol cars and enslaving them to the radio make police less aware of and less responsive to community needs."

I'm not quite sure what your point is (maybe you could clarify for me), but the statement agrees with my point. I think that in violent urban areas, police should be involved in community policing, on foot. Not stuck in cars, pulling over speeders.

Maybe while I'm reading thie KC Prev. Patrol Study, maybe you wouldn't mind looking up studies about why community policing has been successful in many areas.

BTW, I am really interested in discussing this intelligently and am not trying to flame anyone.

Also, after reading some of my earlier posts, I think that I should clarify some things.:
1. In many cases, I am all for speed traps. If we can get people to slow down, everyone will be more safer.

2. However, in many situations I think that a cop's time is not best spent by patrolling the streets and pulling over people who are going 10MPH over the speed limit. I really think that this can isolate the officer from the community.

The study shows that police presence has no significant effect on crime rates, whether areas are saturated or largely abandoned, at least over the period of several months.

I've studied community policing for years. I've written countless papers on it and read an ungodly amount of academic literature on it. I also spent 3 months working in the Community Service Bureau of my PD last summer. I know all about community policing. All these concepts go much deeper than what we're getting at, so I'll wait for you to do some reading.

 

[timswim78]

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: timswim78
OK, I looked it up. I'll read it in more detail now, because this is something that I am truely interested in. Among other things, one summary of it says "isolating officer in the patrol cars and enslaving them to the radio make police less aware of and less responsive to community needs."

I'm not quite sure what your point is (maybe you could clarify for me), but the statement agrees with my point. I think that in violent urban areas, police should be involved in community policing, on foot. Not stuck in cars, pulling over speeders.

Maybe while I'm reading thie KC Prev. Patrol Study, maybe you wouldn't mind looking up studies about why community policing has been successful in many areas.

BTW, I am really interested in discussing this intelligently and am not trying to flame anyone.

Also, after reading some of my earlier posts, I think that I should clarify some things.:
1. In many cases, I am all for speed traps. If we can get people to slow down, everyone will be more safer.

2. However, in many situations I think that a cop's time is not best spent by patrolling the streets and pulling over people who are going 10MPH over the speed limit. I really think that this can isolate the officer from the community.

The study shows that police presence has no significant effect on crime rates, whether areas are saturated or largely abandoned, at least over the period of several months.

I've studied community policing for years. I've written countless papers on it and read an ungodly amount of academic literature on it. I also spent 3 months working in the Community Service Bureau of my PD last summer. I know all about community policing. All these concepts go much deeper than what we're getting at, so I'll wait for you to do some reading.

Can you suggest any other good studies other than the KC one?

Also, are your police work and research urban, suburban, rural, or a combination.

In addition, what do you think is a better alternative, to community policing, for decreasing crime rates in violent, drug-infested areas?

Edit, I would also like to add that crime rates are not, in my opinion, the best measure of how safe an area is. In many instances, the crime rates may go up as people get to know the police better. Why? Because the people are more likely to report crimes if they know and trust the police.

 

[bradruth]

Originally posted by: timswim78
Can you suggest any other good studies other than the KC one?

Also, are your police work and research urban, suburban, rural, or a combination.

In addition, what do you think is a better alternative, to community policing, for decreasing crime rates in violent, drug-infested areas?

You might want to check out Lawrence W. Sherman & Dennis P. Rogan?s ?Effects of Gun Seizures on Gun Violence: ?Hot Spots? Patrol in Kansas City,? ?Team Policing: Case Studies,? by Lawrence W. Sherman, Catherine H. Milton, and Thomas V. Kelly, Herman Goldstein?s ?Improving Policing: A Problem-Oriented Approach," and ?Crime and Policing? by Moore, Trojanowicz, and Kelling, for starters.

The research I've done covers pretty much all of the above. I work in a city of 50,000+.

There isn't an alternative to community policing, but it's not the be-all, end-all of police work. It's simply another aspect of it. To be truly successful you need different elements and tactics of policing.

 

[bradruth]

Originally posted by: timswim78
Edit, I would also like to add that crime rates are not, in my opinion, the best measure of how safe an area is. In many instances, the crime rates may go up as people get to know the police better. Why? Because the people are more likely to report crimes if they know and trust the police.

The Broken Windows theory should address some of those concerns.

 

[BSEagle1]

Hmm...well if you'd paid attention to the speed limit, this wouldn't have happened. You've only yourself to blame, don't come whining to us

 

[brxndxn]

Take the ticket to court.. I've taken 5 tickets to court now and had the points removed off of all of them. I've had the fines reduced or eliminated on most of them..

Just say you saw a 30mph sign right there and thus went 30mph. Insist that you were just following what the sign says.

I've had lamer excuses than that.. and still came out on top.

If you show up to court looking halfway-decent - collared shirt, tucked in, clean cut - you'll look 10x better than the average homeless slob waste-of-life that confronts the traffic judge every day.

 

[slick230]

Originally posted by: brxndxn
Take the ticket to court.. I've taken 5 tickets to court now and had the points removed off of all of them. I've had the fines reduced or eliminated on most of them..

Just say you saw a 30mph sign right there and thus went 30mph. Insist that you were just following what the sign says.

I've had lamer excuses than that.. and still came out on top.

If you show up to court looking halfway-decent - collared shirt, tucked in, clean cut - you'll look 10x better than the average homeless slob waste-of-life that confronts the traffic judge every day.

The speed limit of 30MPH doesn't apply until AFTER you pass the posted sign, in most areas.

 

[timswim78]

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: timswim78
Can you suggest any other good studies other than the KC one?

Also, are your police work and research urban, suburban, rural, or a combination.

In addition, what do you think is a better alternative, to community policing, for decreasing crime rates in violent, drug-infested areas?

You might want to check out Lawrence W. Sherman & Dennis P. Rogan?s ?Effects of Gun Seizures on Gun Violence: ?Hot Spots? Patrol in Kansas City,? ?Team Policing: Case Studies,? by Lawrence W. Sherman, Catherine H. Milton, and Thomas V. Kelly, Herman Goldstein?s ?Improving Policing: A Problem-Oriented Approach," and ?Crime and Policing? by Moore, Trojanowicz, and Kelling, for starters.

The research I've done covers pretty much all of the above. I work in a city of 50,000+.

There isn't an alternative to community policing, but it's not the be-all, end-all of police work. It's simply another aspect of it. To be truly successful you need different elements and tactics of policing.

Thanks for the studies that you posted in the thread. I am definitely going to check them out. Living in Baltimore, I have become very interested in how we can make things safer for everyone, because this place can be a real war-zone. Just a few weeks ago, my dad was hospitalized after getting stabbed in a carjacking, only a few blocks from the mayor's home. I definitely agree that we need different elements of policing to be effective.

I just guess that I when I think of what happened to my dad, I often think that it MAY have not happened if a cop had been in the area. However, as we all know, cops can't be everywhere at everytime.

After the stabbing, I would say that community policing definitely helped to find the perp. Why? Because the police in the area were definitely familiar with the perp. because local people in the area trusted the police enough to report the guy for some lesser offenses. So, the other offenses that were reported added to the overall crim rate, but they more importantly led to my dad's attacker being arrested.

So, getting back to the original statement by the OP and relating it to my experiences, I would be very saddened if I ever learned that there was a cop on the next street who was writing a ticket for a minor offense, and that the perp stabbed my dad because he knew that the local cop was occupied with this minor offense. Ultimately, this is what I meant when I said that I hope that a cop is not writing someone a ticket for going 10mph over when I NEED that cop.

Just to be crystal clear, the blame here lies with the perp, not with my dad nor the cops in the area.

 

[brxndxn]

Originally posted by: slick230

Originally posted by: brxndxn
Take the ticket to court.. I've taken 5 tickets to court now and had the points removed off of all of them. I've had the fines reduced or eliminated on most of them..

Just say you saw a 30mph sign right there and thus went 30mph. Insist that you were just following what the sign says.

I've had lamer excuses than that.. and still came out on top.

If you show up to court looking halfway-decent - collared shirt, tucked in, clean cut - you'll look 10x better than the average homeless slob waste-of-life that confronts the traffic judge every day.

The speed limit of 30MPH doesn't apply until AFTER you pass the posted sign, in most areas.

Ya.. that's the law everywhere. That doesn't mean it won't get you a concession by the judge. Just say you thought you were in a 30mph zone. Traffic courts are pretty damn informal. And, the usual excuses by the dumbasses that contest are horrible.. So a halfway-decent excuse goes a long way.

 

[bradruth]

Originally posted by: timswim78
So, getting back to the original statement by the OP and relating it to my experiences, I would be very saddened if I ever learned that there was a cop on the next street who was writing a ticket for a minor offense, and that the perp stabbed my dad because he knew that the local cop was occupied with this minor offense. Ultimately, this is what I meant when I said that I hope that a cop is not writing someone a ticket for going 10mph over when I NEED that cop.

That's generally not how crime works. You seem to subscribe to the Opportunity Theory of crime, which says that if all certain elements line up (easy victim, lack of authority present, means & will to commit the crime) then a crime will be committed. I tend to lean more toward the Displacement Theory of crime, which says that a crime is going to be committed, but if the opportunity isn't there (i.e. it's blocked by the presence of the police) it will simply move to a different place. If it wasn't your dad it would have been someone else.

And if a cop had someone stopped a block away odds are he wouldn't have been in the exact time & place that the crime occurred anyway. Even if he was just driving by the perp would see that he's leaving the area and could seize his opportunity, if you want to subscribe to that school of thought.

 

[timswim78]

Originally posted by: bradruth

Originally posted by: timswim78
So, getting back to the original statement by the OP and relating it to my experiences, I would be very saddened if I ever learned that there was a cop on the next street who was writing a ticket for a minor offense, and that the perp stabbed my dad because he knew that the local cop was occupied with this minor offense. Ultimately, this is what I meant when I said that I hope that a cop is not writing someone a ticket for going 10mph over when I NEED that cop.

That's generally not how crime works. You seem to subscribe to the Opportunity Theory of crime, which says that if all certain elements line up (easy victim, lack of authority present, means & will to commit the crime) then a crime will be committed. I tend to lean more toward the Displacement Theory of crime, which says that a crime is going to be committed, but if the opportunity isn't there (i.e. it's blocked by the presence of the police) it will simply move to a different place. If it wasn't your dad it would have been someone else.

And if a cop had someone stopped a block away odds are he wouldn't have been in the exact time & place that the crime occurred anyway. Even if he was just driving by the perp would see that he's leaving the area and could seize his opportunity, if you want to subscribe to that school of thought.

I woud say that I agree with both of those theories of the crime. However, my father's case was absolutely an opportunity crime. My dad is a salesman for home improvements. The perp saw that my dad his work equipment (laptop, digital camera) and an escape vehiclewith an oppen door. So, the perp seized the opportunity to get some stuff and sell it to a fence. He didn't count on my father fighting back (and almost winning until he got hit in the head and knocked out).

From my limited knowledge of the displacement theory, yes this guy would have robbed someone else at some other time. So, the theft component of the crime may have been committed elsewhere, but the violent portion may or may not have happened if the perp chose to steal something that was less of an opportunity.

 

[nuonce]

20 mph speed limit sounds like residential, that limit is for the safety of the neighborhood.