Fud or looming disaster:

[Moonbeam]

Dealing in false equivalencies, are we? Ooooo, let me play too:

(Clears throat)

The problem as I see it is the authoritarian mystics, the mystics that react to programming but harp on it so heavily and so often that they come across as smug and, well, authoritarian. They give ages-old wisdom a bad name.

If I am dealing in false equivalency, as I I either understand or misunderstand the term, it means that I am equating two different things that are different as if they were the same. I would presume that one might do this to create a lie, or because one actually thinks they are the same. Now I know I am not lying about anthhing so I must be unknowingly mistaken and my error is invisible to me, so could I ask you to be specific about what two things I equated? I reread my post several times and nothing in it had anything I could see about about ancient wisdom or mysticism I could see. It was my opinion on contemporary politics. When I express an opinion, I express the one I have, what I think is right. I don't think that is authoritarianism because i'm not wedded to them. Anyway, .....

 

[Moonbeam]

[QUOTE="dank69 ]You got a vicious reaction because that writer is a piece of shit to his very core and it doesn't take research or even any knowledge of his background to divine that information. It is apparent just from reading that one article. It is filled with every shit rationalization tool in the degenerate conservative toolbox to the point that reading it is literally painful.

IMO anyone opposing Democrats or liberals on authoritarian grounds is a fucking muppet. It's like worrying about the dogshit on your shoes when the entire fucking world is burning down around you [/QUOTE]

I posted the thread because I had that same feeling about the author of the link. I Wanted to suggest that in my opinion the problem you don't see, apparently can't calmly consider, is that there are problems with the authoritarian democratic left that the right can, and will, and does exploit, problems I also considered to be insignificant right up to the point Trump announced, when it became obvious to me and very few others it would seem, that democrats had a message problem that would cost the white male vote and the election and that their emotional reaction to him was little different than the one Obama got from the right. You are, in my opinion as blind as they are, but I don't seem to have your need to go completely mad and vicious because you don't agree with me. I guess it's because I'm a mystic like woofe.

I wonder just why it is so threatening to you that, in my opinion, the liberal democratic cause would be better served if they kept the message of equality and justice they have but eliminated the focus of the inequality and injustice faced to just minority groups. I think a conservative agenda fucks uneducated white males too and I also care about them. I would also like to start wining some elections by putting up candidates that have a feel for message.

I think the real issue with you and people with your same feelings, isn't that you're angry with me but with yourselves. Your arrogant certainty in your own convictions facilitated a Trump win. I think its was because you don't know what you feel and couldn't therefore sympathize with poorer white males so you turned to bitterness toward everything when you lost. While your having your temper tantrum, there's another election coming. Don't fuck that one up too, please. Evolve. It's what the fit who want to survive do.

I thank you for your emotionally honest posts here. You do seem to know what you feel more than most.

 

[dank69]

You got a vicious reaction because that writer is a piece of shit to his very core and it doesn't take research or even any knowledge of his background to divine that information. It is apparent just from reading that one article. It is filled with every shit rationalization tool in the degenerate conservative toolbox to the point that reading it is literally painful.

IMO anyone opposing Democrats or liberals on authoritarian grounds is a fucking muppet. It's like worrying about the dogshit on your shoes when the entire fucking world is burning down around you

I posted the thread because I had that same feeling about the author of the link. I Wanted to suggest that in my opinion the problem you don't see, apparently can't calmly consider, is that there are problems with the authoritarian democratic left that the right can, and will, and does exploit, problems I also considered to be insignificant right up to the point Trump announced, when it became obvious to me and very few others it would seem, that democrats had a message problem that would cost the white male vote and the election and that their emotional reaction to him was little different than the one Obama got from the right. You are, in my opinion as blind as they are, but I don't seem to have your need to go completely mad and vicious because you don't agree with me. I guess it's because I'm a mystic like woofe.

I wonder just why it is so threatening to you that, in my opinion, the liberal democratic cause would be better served if they kept the message of equality and justice they have but eliminated the focus of the inequality and injustice faced to just minority groups. I think a conservative agenda fucks uneducated white males too and I also care about them. I would also like to start wining some elections by putting up candidates that have a feel for message.

I think the real issue with you and people with your same feelings, isn't that you're angry with me but with yourselves. Your arrogant certainty in your own convictions facilitated a Trump win. I think its was because you don't know what you feel and couldn't therefore sympathize with poorer white males so you turned to bitterness toward everything when you lost. While your having your temper tantrum, there's another election coming. Don't fuck that one up too, please. Evolve. It's what the fit who want to survive do.

I thank you for your emotionally honest posts here. You do seem to know what you feel more than most.

First of all, I am not angry with you in the slightest. I love you as much as you love me. Quite possibly even more.

As for the right exploiting our problems, in my opinion the problem you don't see no matter how calmly you consider the situation is that even if the Democrats were perfect, the right would just make up more bullshit to hate about the evil liberals in their heads and conservatives and independents will gobble that shit up just as fast as they always have. It does not matter what Democrats or liberals do. It has not mattered for decades. The right, and independents are going to hate liberals no matter what. No data will change this. No evidence will change this. No coddling will change this. The only thing that *might* have a chance of changing this is when every last one of us suffers to the point you have and is forced to let go. It is our duty to sit back and let them do this to everyone. It is time for liberals to stop trying to save these imbeciles from themselves because we cannot. We never could. America is much too far gone. Deep down you know this to be true. You knew it years ago when you were searching for the answer to how to reach the conservative mind and never found that answer.

 

[Moonbeam]

First of all, I am not angry with you in the slightest. I love you as much as you love me. Quite possibly even more.

As for the right exploiting our problems, in my opinion the problem you don't see no matter how calmly you consider the situation is that even if the Democrats were perfect, the right would just make up more bullshit to hate about the evil liberals in their heads and conservatives and independents will gobble that shit up just as fast as they always have. It does not matter what Democrats or liberals do. It has not mattered for decades. The right, and independents are going to hate liberals no matter what. No data will change this. No evidence will change this. No coddling will change this. The only thing that *might* have a chance of changing this is when every last one of us suffers to the point you have and is forced to let go. It is our duty to sit back and let them do this to everyone. It is time for liberals to stop trying to save these imbeciles from themselves because we cannot. We never could. America is much too far gone. Deep down you know this to be true. You knew it years ago when you were searching for the answer to how to reach the conservative mind and never found that answer.

I am looking for an answer to the conservative mind set because it is bent on unconscious self destruction and human extinction. I am looking for how to make them aware they have that unconscious wish, not help them fulfill it. You are thinking in terms of saving the world via magic, I think, while I see it as one person at a time. I would like to try dialog that does not lead to condemnation. I think ones view of the world is determined by attitude. I have known for a very long time that we are headed either for extinction or something beyond imagination. I think certain experiences people describe as mystical confirmed that latter as a real possibility. Change happens slowly until a tipping point is reached. The world as a whole, it seems to me, is making liberal progress. In business the best deals are mutually beneficial. People like a business ethic where opportunity avails because it makes money.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Gender race and ideological identity politics is not the way to sell liberalism to the masses because most people not only feel, but have been screwed by the system and they want to hear a message that applies universally, rather than to this or that segment who thinks their identity is the only thing that matters.

You think this because you fundamentally misunderstand identity politics. You have apparently bought the GMFY mindset and think that identity politics is about trying to get theirs at the expense of you. It is not.

the "message that applies universally" in gender politics is that we should all be treated with respect. That is what is so hard for so many conservatives to accept. You are basically trying to allude to "All Lives Matter". It is trite. Houston flooded, but all cities matter. So should we give aid to LA because not doing so would be saying that Houston matters more? No. That is stupid.

That is what gender, race, and identity politics are about. Recognizing that some people need more help than others and giving help where it is needed.

Yes, some have become bitter and argue for more than is reasonable. But most people, even on the left, recognize that and basically ignore them, with the understanding that as things get better for their group they will calm down. The only ones not ignoring them are the ones that want to point at them as examples of how bad the left it.

 

[dank69]

I am looking for an answer to the conservative mind set because it is bent on unconscious self destruction and human extinction. I am looking for how to make them aware they have that unconscious wish, not help them fulfill it. You are thinking in terms of saving the world via magic, I think, while I see it as one person at a time. I would like to try dialog that does not lead to condemnation. I think ones view of the world is determined by attitude. I have known for a very long time that we are headed either for extinction or something beyond imagination. I think certain experiences people describe as mystical confirmed that latter as a real possibility. Change happens slowly until a tipping point is reached. The world as a whole, it seems to me, is making liberal progress. In business the best deals are mutually beneficial. People like a business ethic where opportunity avails because it makes money.

I'm not looking to help them do anything. I think the left should stop standing in their way. You should know after 18 years of this shit you aren't changing anyone "one person at a time." It's way too late for that shit anyway.

 

[woolfe9998]

IMO anyone opposing Democrats or liberals on authoritarian grounds is a fucking muppet. It's like worrying about the dogshit on your shoes when the entire fucking world is burning down around you.

We probably disagree about the magnitude of the problem with authoritarianism on the left. Apart from that, it is always productive to clean up your own back yard. That is even more true today when the entire political right is in an impenetrable bubble. You say above to Moonbeam that the right is beyond reach, and you're correct. We're far more likely to persuade those in our own camp.

Based on the tenor of your posts, you seem to think there is little if anything we can do about the political circumstances we find ourselves in. Given that you believe this to be the case, I think it's interesting that you would criticize someone for focusing on what you consider to be the wrong thing.

 

[1prophet]

The liberal lefts real problem

Democrats abandoned middle class in 2016 election, Joe Biden says

Former Vice President Joe Biden blamed his own party for losing the 2016 election, telling a crowd at the University of Pennsylvania that Democrats ignored one of its core ideals during the campaign: maintaining “a burgeoning middle class.”

Mr. Biden sat down with University of Pennsylvania President Amy Gutmann for a wide-ranging discussion at the new Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement. Without specifically naming Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton, the former vice president said his party lost to President Trump because it failed to pay attention to struggling middle-class workers during the campaign.

“I think that what happened was that this is the first campaign that I can recall where my party did not talk about what it always stood for, and that is how to maintain a burgeoning middle class,” Mr. Biden said.

“You didn’t hear a single solitary sentence in the last campaign about that guy working on the assembly line making 60,000 bucks a year,” he said, “and a wife making $32,000 as a hostess in a restaurant and they’re making 90 grand and they’ve got two kids and they can’t make it and they’re scared. They’re frightened, because they’re not stupid.”

Mr. Biden said while globalization has been a “phenomenal success” on a macroeconomic level, it’s also “left a lot of people behind.”

He also dispelled the liberal talking point that the working-class voters who elected President Trump are racist.

“All those angry white men we talk about that are racist — guess what? Barack and I won them,” he said. “Let’s get this straight. It wasn’t racist. They voted for a black man, twice in a row, but they didn’t this time. They didn’t this time, because they look out there, and they’re scared and no one’s talking to them.”

Despite the political division in the U.S. today, the former vice president said he’s more optimistic about the country’s future than he’s ever been in his career.

“That is not hyperbole,” he said. “We are better positioned by a mile than any other nation in world to own the 21st Century, if we just get out of our way, if we just start talking about and dealing with our values and the realities of what we possess. It’s enormous, the resources we have here.”

 

[ivwshane]

I am looking for an answer to the conservative mind set because it is bent on unconscious self destruction and human extinction. I am looking for how to make them aware they have that unconscious wish, not help them fulfill it. You are thinking in terms of saving the world via magic, I think, while I see it as one person at a time. I would like to try dialog that does not lead to condemnation. I think ones view of the world is determined by attitude. I have known for a very long time that we are headed either for extinction or something beyond imagination. I think certain experiences people describe as mystical confirmed that latter as a real possibility. Change happens slowly until a tipping point is reached. The world as a whole, it seems to me, is making liberal progress. In business the best deals are mutually beneficial. People like a business ethic where opportunity avails because it makes money.

How many people do you think you've saved?

 

[ivwshane]

The liberal lefts real problem

Democrats abandoned middle class in 2016 election, Joe Biden says

And he's wrong.

 

[dank69]

We probably disagree about the magnitude of the problem with authoritarianism on the left. Apart from that, it is always productive to clean up your own back yard. That is even more true today when the entire political right is in an impenetrable bubble. You say above to Moonbeam that the right is beyond reach, and you're correct. We're far more likely to persuade those in our own camp.

Based on the tenor of your posts, you seem to think there is little if anything we can do about the political circumstances we find ourselves in. Given that you believe this to be the case, I think it's interesting that you would criticize someone for focusing on what you consider to be the wrong thing.

That's because I think that what we all should be doing is giving conservatives everything they want until they can't blame liberals for all their problems anymore. Every time we step in to block them it just gives them another opportunity to blame us for the results of their policies.

 

[woolfe9998]

The liberal lefts real problem

Democrats abandoned middle class in 2016 election, Joe Biden says

His comments sound like they're coming from someone who is already rhetorically starting his 2020 campaign for POTUS.

I have mixed feelings about his comments regarding the middle class. This all seems to come down to the issue of free trade agreements and mid-western swing states. If he's saying that flip flopping on TPP may have cost Clinton a few of those states, that's possibly true. OTOH, it has nothing to do with the merits of TPP or of the broader issue of free trade versus protectionism. We need to get rid of the electoral college so that certain voters aren't coddled by candidates making promises which may not be in the best interests of the nation as a whole. Also, Biden seems to be forgetting that it was Obama who pushed the TPP to begin with. Is he disagreeing with Obama about TPP?

 

[SMOGZINN]

That's because I think that what we all should be doing is giving conservatives everything they want until they can't blame liberals for all their problems anymore. Every time we step in to block them it just gives them another opportunity to blame us for the results of their policies.

So teach the kids not to play with matches by letting them burn down the house?

 

[woolfe9998]

That's because I think that what we all should be doing is giving conservatives everything they want until they can't blame liberals for all their problems anymore. Every time we step in to block them it just gives them another opportunity to blame us for the results of their policies.

A wise person once said - about 5 minutes ago - this:

As for the right exploiting our problems, in my opinion the problem you don't see no matter how calmly you consider the situation is that even if the Democrats were perfect, the right would just make up more bullshit to hate about the evil liberals in their heads and conservatives and independents will gobble that shit up just as fast as they always have.

Like you said, they'll find a way to blame us no matter what. The question is, what audience does it play to outside their hardcore base?

The populace doesn't fit neatly into two camps. There are actual swing voters in this country. People who voted for Obama and then Trump, for example. I think the behavior of people on the left does matter to many of those people. And elections can turn on very narrow margins. We need to block their worst policies, because polling shows that these policies are unpopular, including with a majority of independents and even among a chunk of those who consider themselves conservative (likely center-right). Why would we not act to block policies which 60-70% of the people oppose? Ending DACA is a perfect example.

And we need to clean up our own behavior. What good does it do to call out the right for tolerating so much bullshit from their own (e.g. Trump himself) when we're doing the same thing with our own bullshit?

 

[kirbyrj]

You think this because you fundamentally misunderstand identity politics. You have apparently bought the GMFY mindset and think that identity politics is about trying to get theirs at the expense of you. It is not.

the "message that applies universally" in gender politics is that we should all be treated with respect. That is what is so hard for so many conservatives to accept. You are basically trying to allude to "All Lives Matter". It is trite. Houston flooded, but all cities matter. So should we give aid to LA because not doing so would be saying that Houston matters more? No. That is stupid.

That is what gender, race, and identity politics are about. Recognizing that some people need more help than others and giving help where it is needed.

Yes, some have become bitter and argue for more than is reasonable. But most people, even on the left, recognize that and basically ignore them, with the understanding that as things get better for their group they will calm down. The only ones not ignoring them are the ones that want to point at them as examples of how bad the left it.

Franklin Roosevelt in the 30's and 40's and Lyndon Johnson in the 60's tried that and created the mess we have today. What liberals fail at doing is holding people accountable for the government's money they have thrown at problems. Money that has to come from somewhere. The phrase, "with the understanding that as things get better for their group they will calm down" is a myth. Once people get something for nothing they don't suddenly want to contribute, they want free stuff thrown their way constantly and worse, feel entitled to it. The average conservative isn't against helping people out. They are against helping people out for several generations of people who think that is the way the government is supposed to operate.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

If I am dealing in false equivalency, as I I either understand or misunderstand the term, it means that I am equating two different things that are different as if they were the same. I would presume that one might do this to create a lie, or because one actually thinks they are the same. Now I know I am not lying about anthhing so I must be unknowingly mistaken and my error is invisible to me, so could I ask you to be specific about what two things I equated? I reread my post several times and nothing in it had anything I could see about about ancient wisdom or mysticism I could see. It was my opinion on contemporary politics. When I express an opinion, I express the one I have, what I think is right. I don't think that is authoritarianism because i'm not wedded to them. Anyway, .....

Valiant effort...but I fear it wasted.

 

[senseamp]

The country is getting ready for Universal Single Payer. Democrats should stake out that position and wait. Republicans have no alternatives, so it's only a matter of time.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I don't know what to think about liberals these days...such a mixed bag. But overall...I mostly see hysteria.

 

[Stokely]

Until the Democrats learn to simplistically lie about every single issue, telling people what they want to hear in simple populist fashion--they'll lose elections. That was proven last year.

Unfortunately for me, I'll lose a big reason that I vote for them in the first place if they do.

 

[kirbyrj]

The country is getting ready for Universal Single Payer. Democrats should stake out that position and wait. Republicans have no alternatives, so it's only a matter of time.

They couldn't even get that done in CA because they have no way to fund it. If healthcare is almost 10% of the GDP already, people will have a stroke when they get the tax bill.

 

[senseamp]

They couldn't even get that done in CA because they have no way to fund it. If healthcare is almost 10% of the GDP already, people will have a stroke when they get the tax bill.

Yes, it has to be done at the Federal level. People will get a higher tax bill, but no insurance bill. With average family health plan now costing over $15000, vast majority will be better off. Plus government can negotiate down costs much better than private insurance has been doing.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

They couldn't even get that done in CA because they have no way to fund it. If healthcare is almost 10% of the GDP already, people will have a stroke when they get the tax bill.

No way to fund it? That's not exactly true since they can fund it through tax increases...assuming they have the belly for it that is.

 

[Moonbeam]

SMOGZINN: You think this because you fundamentally misunderstand identity politics. You have apparently bought the GMFY mindset and think that identity politics is about trying to get theirs at the expense of you. It is not.

M: Not so. I haven't misunderstood it. I am saying that conservatives twist it because they have a bias toward others they think are taking from them. I want a democratic message that addresses the needs of those who have them without the war over who has the most helpworthy needs. It changes nothing but the tone and how the right would have a much harder time manipulating the message.

S: the "message that applies universally" in gender politics is that we should all be treated with respect. That is what is so hard for so many conservatives to accept. You are basically trying to allude to "All Lives Matter". It is trite. Houston flooded, but all cities matter. So should we give aid to LA because not doing so would be saying that Houston matters more? No. That is stupid.

M: or what is stupid is the emphasis that all lines don't appear on he surface to be included.

S: That is what gender, race, and identity politics are about. Recognizing that some people need more help than others and giving help where it is needed.

M: For you perhaps. What matters to me is that Everyone feels the same entitlement to have their needs met. You open the door to comparisons and competition.

S: Yes, some have become bitter and argue for more than is reasonable. But most people, even on the left, recognize that and basically ignore them, with the understanding that as things get better for their group they will calm down. The only ones not ignoring them are the ones that want to point at them as examples of how bad the left it.

M: Thank you for proving my case. That's the whole point of having a better message.

 

[Moonbeam]

A wise person once said - about 5 minutes ago - this:



Like you said, they'll find a way to blame us no matter what. The question is, what audience does it play to outside their hardcore base?

The populace doesn't fit neatly into two camps. There are actual swing voters in this country. People who voted for Obama and then Trump, for example. I think the behavior of people on the left does matter to many of those people. And elections can turn on very narrow margins. We need to block their worst policies, because polling shows that these policies are unpopular, including with a majority of independents and even among a chunk of those who consider themselves conservative (likely center-right). Why would we not act to block policies which 60-70% of the people oppose? Ending DACA is a perfect example.

And we need to clean up our own behavior. What good does it do to call out the right for tolerating so much bullshit from their own (e.g. Trump himself) when we're doing the same thing with our own bullshit?

You make so much more sense, in my opinion. If the right is going to blame the left for everything, there are two options. One is to understand those attacks are motivated by feelings that have irrational roots and deal with that motivation. That will be made easier by delivering a more inclusive message.

 

[Moonbeam]

No way to fund it? That's not true as they can fund it through tax increases...assuming they have the belly for it.

Or death panels.

I do not know the answer to healthcare, but it seems like an issue that can be addressed by rational intelligent minds. In the US, it's a political football. A rational plan that is tested and proven to be economically sound would put an end to the conservative criticism that liberals can't manage money. I think it is a requirement for any who want to be progressive.