Fudzilla: New AMD Zen APU boasts up to 16 cores (plus Greenland GPU with HBM)

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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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No. The problem is that 8 core Intel HEDT doesn't actually gain you anything in >99% of all gaming scenarios, which is why (even as mind-numbingly MOAR POWAH-minded as gamers tend to be) they steer away from these chips. Or at least, the price in combination with the realization that they might gain 10% performance IF they run tri-SLI/CF. The fact is that until DX12 comes along (and presumably a good while after that as well), 8 threads will be PLENTY for gaming. Clock speeds and IPC matter more.

I think the reason most people steer away from i7-5820K (and the like) is because:

1. X99 came after chips like i7-4790K

2. X99 motherboards are most expensive than most LGA 1150.

3. DDR4 is more expensive

Overall, It appears folks want the extra cores, including results tallied from this thread---> http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2424749.

Now with that mentioned, I don't think that necessarily means folks will migrate to eight core Zen (re: Single thread performance matters a lot and AMD needs to catch in this area. So the decision isn't 6 or 8 core Intel vs. 4 core Intel. It would more likely be 6 or 8 core AMD vs 4 core Intel.)
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Valantar, Here are some results with stock speed i7-5960X (running 980 GTX in SLI, not tri-SLI):



Even with lower clocks than i7-4770K, i7-5960X gets a 15% better frame rate. This without needing Tri-SLI.
 
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CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,135
832
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For those planning to build a top gaming computer in 2016, is there any reason not to base it on an 8 core AMD Zen?

Well as we don't know how Zen actually performs in games or how its competition performs, your question doesn't make a lot of sense.

What? Are you day dreaming again?
If I have misquoted you, then I apologise for that mistake.

Did I lowball you? :biggrin:

IB/Haswell level of performance and 8 cores is what most in this forum has been estimating. That puts it into $1000 8 core Haswell-E territory. Is that not considered "top" performance for you?

I think you are confusing what people who are very strong fans of AMD have been saying/praying, with what most in this forum have been estimating.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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nahh, they dont have the money to develop a ZEN APU

If the rumor I quoted in post #1362 is true, maybe these 2016 APUs are nothing more than left-over Carrizo with the DDR4 memory controller enabled?

Likewise, the reason we are seeing a Kaveri refresh (rather than Carrizo on FM2+) is because AMD has too many Kaveri wafers left-over?

If so, maybe we should question how aggressive AMD should really be with their binning?
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Regarding binning related to yields, AFAIK there are two forms to consider:

1. Yields due to actual defects (forgot the official name for this).

2. Parametric yields (defect is not present, but clocks and/or power consumption are not achieving established targets)
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,813
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If the rumor I quoted in post #1362 is true, maybe these 2016 APUs are nothing more than left-over Carrizo with the DDR4 memory controller enabled?

If they are, then nobody will buy them. Look at the clockspeeds on Carrizo and that'll answer your question.

Likewise, the reason we are seeing a Kaveri refresh (rather than Carrizo on FM2+) is because AMD has too many Kaveri wafers left-over?

It's because they haven't got anything else, they've done some minor process tweaks to 28nm planar that got them a wee bit of extra clockspeed, and they need to keep their lineup fresh to promote some sales. Carrizo proved to be too slow clockspeed-wise for FM2+, so something had to fill that void.

If so, maybe we should question how aggressive AMD should really be with their binning?

Wat.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
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Regarding binning related to yields, AFAIK there are two forms to consider:

1. Yields due to actual defects (forgot the official name for this).

2. Parametric yields (defect is not present, but clocks and/or power consumption are not achieving established targets)

functional yields

cbn, Arachnotronic is correct but I would like to expand on this subject as it is near and dear to my work life (if I may)...

In every sense of the concept, both functional and parametric yield are the result of "physical" defects being present in the form of atoms literally not being present, or being present, in physical locations where they are desired or not wanted.

If they are not present where they are desired then we refer to this as an implant or dopant deficiency (reducing parametric yield due to less dopants and/or less conductors where we want and need them to be).

Likewise if they are present where they are not desired then we refer to this as a contaminant or undesired variability (again reducing either the desired drive currents, the targeted TDDB, or leakage current).

Even the "physical" defects, i.e. random blobs of add-on defect from the ambient surroundings can be captured and considered to be "undesired contaminants and/or misplaced dopants".

All of which impact both the functional and parametric yields.

My point is merely to say don't get hung up on discerning between the physical domain (is atom xyz present in location abc?) and the electrical domain (is the conduction band in the region of coordinates xyz altered to be abc?).

On the outside it may seem neat and tidy to delineate between the two realms, but on the inside there is an interplay between the two that in itself creates the reality that we all get to purchase
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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If they are, then nobody will buy them. Look at the clockspeeds on Carrizo and that'll answer your question.

AMD could make 95 watt SKUs out of Carrizo simply by setting the modules to 50 watts and then fill in the rest of the TDP with higher clocks on the iGPU (the I/O will also contribute to power consumption).

Not sure what the clocks would be. However, the A6-7600 @ 45 watt cTDP is 3.1 GHz base and 3.3 Ghz turbo. So 50 watts of TDP in the Carrizo modules would certainly yield something over 3 Ghz.

Then factor in DDR4 and now these APUs will probably work better than Kaveri. This in addition to full HSA 1.0 and AVX2.


It's because they haven't got anything else, they've done some minor process tweaks to 28nm planar that got them a wee bit of extra clockspeed, and they need to keep their lineup fresh to promote some sales. Carrizo proved to be too slow clockspeed-wise for FM2+, so something had to fill that void.

I still wonder if it is a wafer situation.


For AMD's binning of APUS, I would like to see a greater amount of the iGPU enabled. 384 stream processors at the minimum and 448 and 512 on everything else. This to make the silicon produced more valuable and to better establish an HSA installation base.
 
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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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AMD can make 95 watt SKUs out of Carrizo simply by setting the modules to 50 watts and then fill in the rest of the TDP with higher clocks on the iGPU (the I/O will also contribute to power consumption).

But they would have lower performance and performance/watt than Kaveri. Its a pointless product.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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But they would have lower performance and performance/watt than Kaveri. Its a pointless product.

With the modules set for 50 watts of power consumption (25 watts per module) performance per watt is almost the same as Kaveri.

(So for a 95 watt Carrizo based chip with the modules at only 50 watts I wouldn't expect much (if any) downclocking under iGPU load....but the max cpu clocks for non-iGPU loads will be lower.)

 

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
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Because desktop apus are all about perf/watt/thread in CB benchmark.../facepalm.

If you look at mobile and SOC up to 35W TDP, it is a sweat spot for carrizo vs kaveri.

10 Watts per module and 20 Watts for IGP. Aggressive Turbo and burst, race to idle, and it will be much better product than kaveri.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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Slides is one thing, reality another. When AMD doesnt field carrizo products in the desktop you should know what is what.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Because desktop apus are all about perf/watt/thread in CB benchmark.../facepalm.

The point I don't think you are understanding is that if AMD made a 95 watt Carrizo it is almost certain the modules would use much less of the TDP than what a pair of modules for a 95 watt Kaveri would use (re: Carrizo modules don't scale well past 25 watts per module). But the iGPU on 95 watt Carrizo could be clocked much higher to compensate.

Furthermore, since the Carrizo modules on a 95 watt SKU wouldn't use as much power as Kaveri modules the Carrizo CPU cores likely wouldn't downclock under iGPU load. (Though the clocks would be lower to begin with)

This is why I think a 95 watt Carrizo (aided by DDR4, HSA 1.0, AVX 2) would be better than a 95 watt Kaveri.
 
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Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
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Slides is one thing, reality another. When AMD doesnt field carrizo products in the desktop you should know what is what.

Because mobile is a lot more important. That is why they made sure to suit carrizo for important markets.

Kaveri is fine for desktop
 

csbin

Senior member
Feb 4, 2013
858
412
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Is there AVX2 in Carrizo?

Sure



http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTY3OTc


LLVM's Clang compiler can now support tuning its code generation for AMD's future "Excavator" micro-architecture.

Support was added to Clang today for supporting -march=bdver4, which exposes the instruction set extensions supported by the upcoming CPU/APUs based upon AMD's Excavator. Excavator/bdver4 is the successor to their Steamroller micro-architecture. Excavator cores expected to appear in 2015 within Carrizo APUs. Excavator adds support for the AVX2 and RDRAND instruction set extensions of Steamroller bdver3.

On the GCC side, AMD Excavator landed in GCC 4.9. With today's Git commit for bdver4 targeting in Clang, it will be part of the LLVM 3.5 release this summer -- well ahead of seeing any AMD Excavator processors.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
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Because mobile is a lot more important. That is why they made sure to suit carrizo for important markets.

Kaveri is fine for desktop

The main question is "Why would AMD use Carrizo with DDR4 enabled on AM4 for 2016 vs. using a Zen based APU?"

I am thinking this would happen if there were a surplus of Carrizo wafers left over.
 

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
105
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The main question is "Why would AMD use Carrizo with DDR4 enabled on AM4 for 2016 vs. using a Zen based APU?"

I am thinking this would happen if there were a surplus of Carrizo wafers left over.

AMD itself is compering Zen to EX. It is quite obvious that zen will be their next core for all high performance products.

We just don't know if it will be 2016 for apus.
 

Shehriazad

Senior member
Nov 3, 2014
555
2
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It's a bit sad that there won't be Zen APUs in '16...buuuut...maybe in '17 we could expect HBM powered Zen APUs...oh the insanity.

Especially with DX12's way different usage methods of multi GPUs and no more bandwidth bottlenecks this could be glorious...and actually be the first APU that truly is what it was meant to be...a strong solution for media and gamers alike.



But Zen CPU is exciting as well...because let's be honest...none of the current Intel Desktop high end CPUs have a GPU that is worth looking at...sure...you always have some weird backup if your dgpu fails...but it's just in no relation to the price you're paying for the CPU.
Might as well just buy a Zen CPU and have a $50 back up GPU or just any old back up chip. (Or you know...be part of the vast majority whose hardware doesn't just magically break)

Until iGPUs are strong enough to master 1080 maxed/1440P high/make use of DX12 in a majority of gaming titles....they will unfortunately remain a cute product that is a bit ahead of its time.
In mobile this looks a bit different...but for Desktop we aren't quite there yet. I do expect iGPUs to slowly phase out dGPUs as main market share in the next decade...but...not yet. For now we will keep on using bastard sword sized GPUs.
 

Enigmoid

Platinum Member
Sep 27, 2012
2,907
31
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Because desktop apus are all about perf/watt/thread in CB benchmark.../facepalm.

If you look at mobile and SOC up to 35W TDP, it is a sweat spot for carrizo vs kaveri.

10 Watts per module and 20 Watts for IGP. Aggressive Turbo and burst, race to idle, and it will be much better product than kaveri.

At 10 W per module Carrizio manages 0.85/0.79 = <8% higher frequency. I expect any increase in core efficiency and IPC will easily be offset by the decrease in cache (to 1 MB/module from 2 MB). Its a rather small efficiency increase (the majority of efficiency will come from integrating the FCH). Furthermore carrizio is shaping up to run smaller production volumes and it looks like AMD will be unable to dump bad dies on the desktop - die price may increase.
 
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