[FUDZILLA] No Broadwell for Desktop

[fleshconsumed]

Well you *can* hook up and unhook an external monitor, mouse and keyboard every time you want the desktop experience, but I really have no need for a mobile platform, so why should I bother. Not to mention that a desktop is cooler running, upgradable, more easily repairable (and probably longer lasting in the first place do to better cooling), and faster for less money.

It's really not that hard to hook it all to a laptop. I set it up for my GF. There is a laptop stand on her desk where she puts her laptop. In order to convert it to desktop all she needs to do is to connect three cables: 1) power cable, 2) displayport monitor cable, and 3) USB cable going to a hub that has wireless dongles for mouse and a keyboard connected already. It takes less than 20 seconds to connect those cables and she has a "desktop".

And I think you sort of missed the argument. You personally don't need portability, you're content with using just the desktop, but that's just you. A lot of people have both desktop and a laptop, and for a lot of those people desktop has become optional. They no longer need the desktop because their laptop is powerful enough to do everything they need and given how easy it is to convert their laptop to a pseudo-desktop, it makes no sense for them to replace their desktop, they would be wasting their money.

 

[Vesku]

Also, given the increased focus on mobile computing there are initiatives to condense I/O into one cable: see amd dockport and intel thunderbolt docks. Will be nice if we can get away from model specific docking stations.

 

[cbn]

It's really not that hard to hook it all to a laptop. I set it up for my GF. There is a laptop stand on her desk where she puts her laptop. In order to convert it to desktop all she needs to do is to connect three cables: 1) power cable, 2) displayport monitor cable, and 3) USB cable going to a hub that has wireless dongles for mouse and a keyboard connected already. It takes less than 20 seconds to connect those cables and she has a "desktop".

And I think you sort of missed the argument. You personally don't need portability, you're content with using just the desktop, but that's just you. A lot of people have both desktop and a laptop, and for a lot of those people desktop has become optional. They no longer need the desktop because their laptop is powerful enough to do everything they need and given how easy it is to convert their laptop to a pseudo-desktop, it makes no sense for them to replace their desktop, they would be wasting their money.

It will be interesting to see how high the clocks get on the Broadwell Laptops.

If the cpu clocks are high enough maybe we will finally begin to see Thunderbolt 2 and External Discrete Video cards begin to replace some gaming desktops.

With that said, I am still concerned about the price of Thunderbolt 2, the cables and the External GPU enclosure (with PSU).

 

[Fjodor2001]

It's really not that hard to hook it all to a laptop. I set it up for my GF. There is a laptop stand on her desk where she puts her laptop. In order to convert it to desktop all she needs to do is to connect three cables: 1) power cable, 2) displayport monitor cable, and 3) USB cable going to a hub that has wireless dongles for mouse and a keyboard connected already. It takes less than 20 seconds to connect those cables and she has a "desktop".

And I think you sort of missed the argument. You personally don't need portability, you're content with using just the desktop, but that's just you. A lot of people have both desktop and a laptop, and for a lot of those people desktop has become optional. They no longer need the desktop because their laptop is powerful enough to do everything they need and given how easy it is to convert their laptop to a pseudo-desktop, it makes no sense for them to replace their desktop, they would be wasting their money.

Well to each his own. But I don't think it's worth the hassle to connect and disconnect cables every day like that. Also you also forgot to mention Ethernet, USB printer and audio cables. It may only take 20-30 seconds but that's enough to annoy me when done on a regular basis.

Also, what if you want to leave your desktop computer turned on to download torrents or whatever while leaving the house with your laptop?

But sure if you get used to it, it can probably can work ok for some people.

 

[cbn]

Actually, Best buy is featuring more and more low end desktops. Mostly pentiums and i3 machines from intel, and occasionally an AMD machine with an APU, not an FX with a discrete card.

Yep, they still sell them.

Dell Inspiron 660s, Gateway SX, HP Pavilion 400 series (which is actually a Best Buy exclusive) are some of the SFF Desktops I have seen there.

 

[frozentundra123456]

It's really not that hard to hook it all to a laptop. I set it up for my GF. There is a laptop stand on her desk where she puts her laptop. In order to convert it to desktop all she needs to do is to connect three cables: 1) power cable, 2) displayport monitor cable, and 3) USB cable going to a hub that has wireless dongles for mouse and a keyboard connected already. It takes less than 20 seconds to connect those cables and she has a "desktop".

And I think you sort of missed the argument. You personally don't need portability, you're content with using just the desktop, but that's just you. A lot of people have both desktop and a laptop, and for a lot of those people desktop has become optional. They no longer need the desktop because their laptop is powerful enough to do everything they need and given how easy it is to convert their laptop to a pseudo-desktop, it makes no sense for them to replace their desktop, they would be wasting their money.

No that is the point really.

Different people have different needs and desires. It is not fair to lump everyone who is not enthralled with a tablet, smartphone, or laptop into tehcnical illiterates, old fashioned, or enthusiasts. Desktops do have other advantages over a laptop, which I mentioned in my earlier post. Sort of like Phyanz said in his post "people sure are willing to tell me what I want." I will decide what is most convenient, reliable, and cost effective for me, thank you.

In fact my son recently converted from a laptop to a desktop because he got tired of the laptop continually overheating, and after it died in less than 2 years he decided (without urging from me) to switch to a desktop. He got a faster system for 200 dollars less, is very happy with it, and has had no problems in several years of use. Granted high quality well designed laptops are probably reliable, but you do pay way more than for the same performance in a desktop, not to mention all the accessories you would have to buy to use it with a second monitor, keyboard, and docking station.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

If the cpu clocks are high enough maybe we will finally begin to see Thunderbolt 2 and External Discrete Video cards begin to replace some gaming desktops.

With that said, I am still concerned about the price of Thunderbolt 2, the cables and the External GPU enclosure (with PSU).

I wouldn't get my hopes up. For the last 10 years people have talked about external graphics, but apart from a few prototypes, no product has hit the market. Also have you seen the price of TB cables? At least here in Denmark they're quite insane (~$58 for 0.5m), and I don't see that changing with the new optical variety.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea is a sound one. Its just the execution that's lacking.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I wouldn't get my hopes up. For the last 10 years people have talked about external graphics, but apart from a few prototypes, no product has hit the market. Also have you seen the price of TB cables? At least here in Denmark they're quite insane (~$58 for 0.5m), and I don't see that changing with the new optical variety.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea is a sound one. Its just the execution that's lacking.

The only reason thunderbolt cables is pricy is due to volume. I dont think more than 3 companies even makes the cables. And Apple sits hard on it.

 

[seitur]

No that is the point really.

Different people have different needs and desires. It is not fair to lump everyone who is not enthralled with a tablet, smartphone, or laptop into tehcnical illiterates, old fashioned, or enthusiasts. Desktops do have other advantages over a laptop, which I mentioned in my earlier post. Sort of like Phyanz said in his post "people sure are willing to tell me what I want." I will decide what is most convenient, reliable, and cost effective for me, thank you.

In fact my son recently converted from a laptop to a desktop because he got tired of the laptop continually overheating, and after it died in less than 2 years he decided (without urging from me) to switch to a desktop. He got a faster system for 200 dollars less, is very happy with it, and has had no problems in several years of use. Granted high quality well designed laptops are probably reliable, but you do pay way more than for the same performance in a desktop, not to mention all the accessories you would have to buy to use it with a second monitor, keyboard, and docking station.

Yup. Desktops are not only used by old geezers. There are new young desktop users as well. Of course not nearly as much % wise as 10-15 years ago, but they are there.

DYI desktop part sales are still strong mainly due to gamers and HTCP/media users.
It is simply much more conveniant and often cheaper for those people to have both desktop and laptop or tablet.

Another thing is that there is growing trend in smaller to medium companies and public places (such as libraries) to rely on DYI or small DYI companies to provide desktop units to them, instead of relying on branded (Dell, HP, etc) Desktops.

That is why DYI is still strong while new branded Desktops sales are plummeting.
People here overestimate impact and size of enthusiast group with deep pockets ordering i7, 600$+ GTX cards and high class monitors and generally willing to spend more than 800-1000$ on unit. That is and will remain small miniority of DYI users.

 

[Shivansps]

I wouldn't get my hopes up. For the last 10 years people have talked about external graphics, but apart from a few prototypes, no product has hit the market. Also have you seen the price of TB cables? At least here in Denmark they're quite insane (~$58 for 0.5m), and I don't see that changing with the new optical variety.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea is a sound one. Its just the execution that's lacking.

Mainly because 2 important factors:

1)Need of external power
2)No enoght bandwidth.

Thunderbolt also has licensing issues.

But now with USB 3.1 external graphics will be a real possibility. But dont expect high end products.

 

[tweakboy]

Its coming out late 2014. Just like Ivy E did.

Expect it next sept or later.

 

[SunRe]

Mainly because 2 important factors:

1)Need of external power
2)No enoght bandwidth.

Thunderbolt also has licensing issues.

But now with USB 3.1 external graphics will be a real possibility. But dont expect high end products.

Not enough bandwidth?

Thunderbolt 1 is 10Gbps * 4 (four independent lanes).
Thunderbolt 2 is also 10Gbs * 4 but it can pair two of these for 20Gbps bi-directional.

So that's 40Gbps overall for each version, with a limit of 10 or 20Gbps in various applications.

USB 3.1 will be 10Gbps.

So, how exactly is Thunderbolt low bandwidth?

edit: I admit, I am a big fan of Thunderbolt ever since I've seen connecting one, just one cable to a MacBook Pro and you instantly got a powersuply for your notebook, dvi output to two or more displays, all your peripherals, including full bandwidth to your multi RAID array, even if it's built with solid state storage. That's innovation. I really hope this stuff succeeds and I'm really annoyed Intel is not pushing it harder.

 

[Shivansps]

Thunderbolt 1 is 10Gbps no 40, the thunderbolt chipset is connected to a x4 pcie 2.0 lanes there no way it has more than 20Gbps, and its not even that, its just 10 Gbps for data, Thunderbolt 2 is 20Gbps for data and is also connected to a x4 2.0 lanes.

USB 3.1 will have the same amount of bandwidth as Thunderbolt 1, but with higher amount of power (5v/20a, no idea on how the hell they gona pass 20A).
I no need to tell that anything based on USB will be more sucessfull because its cheaper and the adoption rate is much higher.

Also 10Gbps is not a lot neither is 20Gbps, but 10Gbps is the bare minimum to consider a external card.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Ivy_Bridge_PCI-Express_Scaling/1.html

10Gbps = PCI-E x4 1.1

 

[SunRe]

Well, I take your argument regarding the controller interface being currently limited to x4 or 20Gbps but the Thunderbolt controller is still 4*10Gbps, you can check the specs. This might be just marketing right now, but I personally believe that what this means is that the controller can easily be adapted to x8 pci-e.

Anyhow, the biggest advantage of Thunderbolt is not the speed and how scalable this speed is in the future, but the fact that it's actually a transport for so many different protocols. If they only could fix their licensing and their prices.

 

[SunRe]

edit: And another reason for hoping for Thunderbolt is this: long optical cables

 

[fleshconsumed]

No that is the point really.

Different people have different needs and desires. It is not fair to lump everyone who is not enthralled with a tablet, smartphone, or laptop into tehcnical illiterates, old fashioned, or enthusiasts. Desktops do have other advantages over a laptop, which I mentioned in my earlier post.

...

I'm not lumping anyone together. If you read my previous posts I specifically say that I have file server and HTPC box at home, so it would be a dark day for me if I ever had to give up my desktops. However, for the majority of people that is just not true. Most people do not run file servers, or media centers, or HTPCs, or seed boxes, or ftp servers or any of that stuff at home. Most of them also do not game unless it's farmsville or angry birds. You, me, and people on this forum are becoming an exception. For everybody else having just one laptop is a better choice.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

edit: And another reason for hoping for Thunderbolt is this: long optical cables

Somehow I don't think you want to see the pricing of those...

Active optical HDMI cables cost 275€ for 20m. That's 13.75€ per meter + 2x active optical converter. I can't imagine active optical TB cables being any cheaper. Likely they are even more expensive.

http://www.lindy-international.com/...htm?websale8=ld0101.ld020102&pi=38070&ci=2002

 

[blackened23]

It will be interesting to see how high the clocks get on the Broadwell Laptops.

If the cpu clocks are high enough maybe we will finally begin to see Thunderbolt 2 and External Discrete Video cards begin to replace some gaming desktops.

With that said, I am still concerned about the price of Thunderbolt 2, the cables and the External GPU enclosure (with PSU).

I think you're over-estimating any interest for external GPUs or external GPU enclosures - it's not a very eloquent solution, comes at a performance deficit as compared to a real dGPU (even mobile ones) and is very expensive. Cables are part of that cost, but only part of it - the external enclosures that have been used in the past were simply ridiculous in terms of price.

The market for these external GPUs is pretty small. Keep in mind that most folks who buy ultrabooks don't use them for gaming. I know the mindset here is that EVERY device is used for gaming, but that simply is not the case. Most consumers would much rather have an ultrabook with a mobile dGPU since portability is the entire reason or having an ultrabook in the first place. Really, if you want an external GPU - you could just a full size laptop with a GTX 780M for a lower cost. External GPUs are just silly. It's a nice concept but - again - most folks do not buy portables for gaming. I know that comes as a surprise here since everyone here thinks that every 100$ and up device is for gaming, apparently. Every thread involving a tablet or ultra portable regardless of cost devolves into a "what about games" argument for some reason.

 

[Zodiark1593]

I think you're over-estimating any interest for external GPUs or external GPU enclosures - it's not a very eloquent solution, comes at a performance deficit as compared to a real dGPU (even mobile ones) and is very expensive. Cables are part of that cost, but only part of it - the external enclosures that have been used in the past were simply ridiculous in terms of price.

The market for these external GPUs is pretty small. Keep in mind that most folks who buy ultrabooks don't use them for gaming. I know the mindset here is that EVERY device is used for gaming, but that simply is not the case. Most consumers would much rather have an ultrabook with a mobile dGPU since portability is the entire reason or having an ultrabook in the first place. Really, if you want an external GPU - you could just a full size laptop with a GTX 780M for a lower cost. External GPUs are just silly. It's a nice concept but - again - most folks do not buy portables for gaming. I know that comes as a surprise here since everyone here thinks that every 100$ and up device is for gaming, apparently. Every thread involving a tablet or ultra portable regardless of cost devolves into a "what about games" argument for some reason.

At best, an eGPU is, currently, an inelegant solution. Simply for lack of clutter, a full size gaming laptop would actually be more portable.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

At best, an eGPU is, currently, an inelegant solution. Simply for lack of clutter, a full size gaming laptop would actually be more portable.

But unless you need to move the PC a lot, doesn't a desktop with a decently sized monitor make more sense? Not to mention being a good deal cheaper.

I know the mindset here is that EVERY device is used for gaming

You almost make that sound like a bad thing... :biggrin:

 

[B-Riz]

I think we are missing some things here, because we all love our power, and easily forget what the whole forest looks like.

1. Most people, nay, families already have a desktop computer. And, from experience, if it breaks, they, ask around to their more tech savvy friends about fixing it. If it is fixable, tech savvy friend fixes it. If not, they replace it. And they usually last quite a long time, longer than a mobile computer. So that 4 year old desktop is repaired and not replaced more often than not.

1a. If said family has children and children are old enough, bam, they want a computer, because sharing is overrated. So now, wife and two children have their own laptops. While father has uber gaming computer all to himself (yay).

1c. Social networking and all it entails, the on-line life, has surely driven sales for mobiles as they can be a truly personal computer to someone.

2. For the longest time, mobile computers were not very mobile, or a great value compared to a desktop, so desktops were sales kings. Once laptops became cheaper and "good enough" for basic computing, sales started taking off. Combined with broadband proliferation and wireless networking, there was the perfect storm for mobile computing to be viable to the masses.

3. I would proffer that a nice chunk of laptop sales are from repeat / replacement buyers as the mobile computer is pay to play. There is no piece meal upgrading when new tech comes out and it is quantifiably easier to justify buying a new mobile computer (lighter, faster, stronger, better battery life, MAYBE better screen).

I have roughly bought a new laptop every two years due to tech advances, two lame cheap ones, and finally a nice one with dedicated graphics this year.

Also, people like shiny new things; easy to sell a laptop on CL and get that brand new one if you feel like it. (mmm new electronic smell)

4. Mobile items are more delicate, and it is usually cheaper / easier to get a new laptop if something catastrophic goes wrong because replacement parts are so darn expensive, and a new laptop is usually always better in some regard.

5. Apple made mobile computer more attractive, driving sales for them and the segment as a whole.