Fudzilla: Snapdragon 835's second cluster is a Cortex A53

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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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First kryo was bad. Bad perf. Max crap efficiency.
This is imo good news if true even if a tad sad. But understandable.
A73 is just flat down a balanced, lean and intelligent solution for this market. Even samsung solution looks a bit stupid. A lot of die mm2 and dev cost for nothing.
 
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Andrei.

Senior member
Jan 26, 2015
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You seem to somehow know exactly how Kryo 280 looks architecturally (very close to A73)
Excuse me but what? What else exactly is it supposed to look like? Right out of Qualcomm's mouth it's a based on an ARM Cortex. I was there when ARM presented the license along with the A73 (Here and here, just in case you missed that) They said that's it's a forward going license for new cores, so it's not an A72 for sure. They said that modifications are limited in scope.

It benchmarks essentially identical to the A73's in the Kirin 960 with the same characteristics through all the subtests. I could state more obvious facts about it but people who know where to look have known about the chip since last summer. For all intents and practical purposes "Kryo 280" == A73.
 
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antihelten

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Feb 2, 2012
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Excuse me but what? What else exactly is it supposed to look like?

It could look like a stock A73 core (although it would be a bit pointless to use the built on ARM license if that was the case), it could look like a lightly customized version of the A73 (and thus very close to the A73) or it could look like a heavily customized version of the A73 (and thus not particularly close to the A73). The built on arm license would allow for all of these options as far as I can tell.

Right out of Qualcomm's mouth it's a based on an ARM Cortex. I was there when ARM presented the license along with the A73. They said that's it's a forward going license for new cores. So it's not an A72 for sure.

No one said that it wasn't based on A73, but there is a big difference between being based on A73 and it literally being A73 as you first claimed.

It benchmarks essentially identical to the A73's in the Kirin 960 with the same characteristics through all the subtests. I could state more obvious facts about it but people who know where to look have known about the chip since last summer.

And trying to gauge the level of CPU customization based upon a geekbench result would seem to be a bit of an exercise in futility given how much individual geekbench results can vary from each other, even when running the exact same SoC.
 
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Andrei.

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Jan 26, 2015
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It could look like a stock A73 core (although it would be a bit pointless to use the built on ARM license if that was the case), it could look like a lightly customized version of the A73 (and thus very close to the A73) or it could look like a heavily customized version of the A73 (and thus not particularly close to the A73). The built on arm license would allow for all of these options as far as I can tell.
I just told you the license doesn't allow for modifications beyond changing some configurable knobs and interface stuff. It still effectively is the same microarchitecture. Read the article.
[And trying to gauge the level of CPU customization based upon a geekbench result would seem to be a bit of an exercise in futility given how much individual geekbench results can vary from each other, even when running the exact same SoC.
You're quoting an Exynos 8890 vs the 835, no wonder it's different. Leave benchmark analysis for people who know what they're doing.
 
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antihelten

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
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I just told you the license doesn't allow for modifications beyond changing some configurable knobs and interface stuff. It still effectively is the same microarchitecture. Read the article.

As far as I know, ARM still hasn't told anyone (other than the actual licensees obviously) exactly what is and isn't possible with the built on ARM license other than same rather superficial examples (if you have some more in depth documentation on what is possible, I would love to see it), obviously it won't be anywhere near as extensive as what's possible with an architecture license, but who's to say that the configurable "knobs" can't still make a significant difference?

You're quoting an Exynos 8890 vs the 835, no wonder it's different. Leave benchmark analysis for people who know what they're doing.

You're right about that comparison, my bad, didn't notice the processor ID of that Xiaomi phone. Either way though it still doesn't change the fact that geekbench scores can vary significantly even for the same SoC, and comparing the single 835 result with Kirin 960, up to half the subtests can vary by 10-20% which I wouldn't count as "essentially identical".

But of course if you believe that changes of 10-20% aren't significant, then I suppose you could argue that the two are essentially the same.
 
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Andrei.

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Jan 26, 2015
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As far as I know, ARM still hasn't told anyone (other than the actual licensees obviously) exactly what is and isn't possible with the built on ARM license other than same rather superficial examples, obviously it won't be anywhere near as extensive as what's possible with an architecture license, but who's to say that the configurable "knobs" can't still make a significant difference?
Ok let's make this clear as you don't seem to be listening: ARM outright said not to expect any changes that in any way significantly change the microarchitecture as they are not in the scope of the license. They said this, they make the microarchitecture. I was there in the room in their offices asking them about it on TechDay. Also on a separate occasion a major licensee disclosed that the changes don't exceed 5% from the original designs and that it's all about the marketing power.
 
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lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
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@antihelten: I am not sure what answer you are looking for. We have rather clear statement from ARM itself, yet you dismiss it as "rather superficial examples," and I do not know what Andrei (or anyone else for that matter) can do to satisfy your demand.



There are other circumstantial evidences: that Qualcomm is rather coy about the details of the S835's design; that Geekbench subtest scores show remarkable similarity with A73's (not related to throttling affecting the scores); that ARM's "new" licensing scheme debuted coincidentally when Qualcomm announced S835; that Qualcomm is taking advantage of that license instead of shrinking S820 which was semi-successful; that what few details Qualcomm disclosed about S835 are identical to what we know about A72/A72, such as L1/L2 cache arrangement.

The Kryo 280’s L2 caches have doubled in size relative to those in the Snapdragon 820. The efficiency cluster uses a 1MB L2 cache, while the performance cluster uses a 2MB L2 cache. The larger caches increase performance and reduce power consumption at the same time by reducing memory traffic, according to Qualcomm.

At this point you’re probably wondering why Qualcomm went the semi-custom route for Snapdragon 835’s CPUs instead of using its custom Kryo architecture? The company said that it considers all of the available options (stock ARM, custom, and now semi-custom) for each generation and selects the best technology. Performance and power are obvious criteria, but other factors like cost, availability, and marketing affect this decision too.


http://www.anandtech.com/show/10948/qualcomm-snapdragon-835-kryo-280-adreno-540/2

There will be time enough more details and die shots of S835 will come out. But it is unlikely Qualcomm will admit that S835 is utilizing stock A72/A73 for obvious reasons that are not tech-related. Consumers do not have a fond memory of Qualcomm's last attempt at utilizing ARM cores (S810), and there will be renewed questions on Qualcomm's competence among tech press and the investors in relation to Qualcomm dropping Kryo design. Besides which, depending on how you define "custom," Qualcomm might even have a enough wiggle room to justify calling Kryo 280 a custom design. In that case we are not going to have a consensus because some might consider Qualcomm's implementation "superficial " and some might consider it a genius chip design that no one else did.

To tell the truth I am not sure why all this is important. What matters is S835's performance, its performance/watt, and what ticks it achieve that performance and efficiency. Whether it is called "all-new custom design," or "the best implementation of ARM's big cores to date" seems a rather trivial concern.
 
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antihelten

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
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Ok let's make this clear as you don't seem to be listening: ARM outright said not to expect any changes that in any way significantly change the microarchitecture as they are not in the scope of the license.

I guess this all goes back to what someone would consider significant. For instance I would personally consider the following a fairly significant change to the architecture:



But if you don't consider changes like that significant, then I guess I can understand why you are make the claims that are making (well the new claims at least, since you at least seem to have abandoned your original claim that Kryo 280 was A73/A53 straight up).

Again I'm not saying that Kryo 280 is as different from A73, as say the old Kryo cores or even the A72 or A17 cores.

They said this, they make the microarchitecture. I was there in the room in their offices asking them about it on TechDay. Also on a separate occasion a major licensee disclosed that the changes don't exceed 5% from the original designs and that it's all about the marketing power.

Of course ARM is the one implementing the changes, and thus the ones making the microarchitecture, but again that doesn't necessarily preclude them from making something that differs a fair deal from the A73 (all though as mentioned above, what "a fair deal" encludes would then come down to what one considers significant).

Do you have a link to the 5% link, or was that something told to you directly? And did it refer to their own specific design or was it a more general claim about the limits of what was possible if the license was pushed to it's limit?

@antihelten: I am not sure what answer you are looking for. We have rather clear statement from ARM itself, yet you dismiss it as "rather superficial examples," and I do not know what Andrei (or anyone else for that matter) can do to satisfy your demand.

As far as I know the only example we have is the instruction window change I linked above, and I would consider that example to be fairly superficial in the amount of details offered, but by all means if you have some links to a more in depth list of the various changes that are possible with the built on ARM license then feel free to link it.

There are other circumstantial evidences: that Qualcomm is rather coy about the details of the S835's design; that Geekbench subtest scores show remarkable similarity with A73's (not related to throttling affecting the scores); that ARM's "new" licensing scheme debuted coincidentally when Qualcomm announced S835; that Qualcomm is taking advantage of that license instead of shrinking S820 which was semi-successful; that what few details Qualcomm disclosed about S835 are identical to what we know about A72/A72, such as L1/L2 cache arrangement.

Again variation of up to 10-20% is not what I would consider "remarkable similarity". Also no one is disputing that Kryo is based on the new licensing scheme, so there isn't really anything coincidental here. Also we're talking about A73/A53 here, not A72/A72, so not sure why that would be relevant?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10948/qualcomm-snapdragon-835-kryo-280-adreno-540/2

There will be time enough more details and die shots of S835 will come out. But it is unlikely Qualcomm will admit that S835 is utilizing stock A72/A73 for obvious reasons that are not tech-related. Consumers do not have a fond memory of Qualcomm's last attempt at utilizing ARM cores (S810), and there will be renewed questions on Qualcomm's competence among tech press and the investors in relation to Qualcomm dropping Kryo design.

Of course Qualcomm will not admit to using stock A73 cores, since that would almost certainly be a lie. Even Andrei admitted that Kryo 280 is most likely modified in some manner (however small and insignificant), even though his original claim was just A73/A53.

Besides which, depending on how you define "custom," Qualcomm might even have a enough wiggle room to justify calling Kryo 280 a custom design. In that case we are not going to have a consensus because some might consider Qualcomm's implementation "superficial " and some might consider it a genius chip design that no one else did.

To tell the truth I am not sure why all this is important. What matters is S835's performance, its performance/watt, and what ticks it achieve that performance and efficiency. Whether it is called "all-new custom design," or "the best implementation of ARM's big cores to date" seems a rather trivial concern.

There's really only one way to define custom, and that is "not stock", obviously a core can be more or less customized and Kryo 280 could certainly be only superficially different from A73, but that would still be a custom version however marginally.

I'm not saying that Kryo 280 a genius chip design, nor is anyone else as far as I can tell, nor is anyone claiming that it is an "all-new custom design", so those are really just strawmen.

The issue is that Andrei originally claimed that Kryo 280 was just A73/A53, he then later admitted that there was most likely some changes but claimed that they were insignificant, using a singular geekbench score to justify this claim, even though the subscores from this test could differ by up to 10-20% from the A73 in Kirin 960. He may certainly still be correct (as I said geekbench is not the most reliable thing in the world), but I just don't really think the evidence provided is particularly strong at this point.
 

antihelten

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
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Gaa. Its a73 with lipstick. Eat it and move on.

That may very well be, and I have never claimed otherwise, all I'm saying is that until we get some more in-depth information from Qualcomm or some in depth tests from reviewers (i.e. better than a single geekbench score from an unfinished device), there is really no way to say so with certainty, which is what some people here are doing (and that is only after they were forced to admit that their original claims of it being stock A73 was unsupported and almost certainly false).

Either way though, until we get more information, this discussion is fairly pointless, so we might as well all move on.

I'm curious though, since the aim of the built on ARM license is primarily for marketing purposes, would the license potentially allow someone to take an actual stock A73 core with zero changes/customization and rebrand it?
 
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Lodix

Senior member
Jun 24, 2016
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That may very well be, and I have never claimed otherwise, all I'm saying is that until we get some more in-depth information from Qualcomm or some in depth tests from reviewers (i.e. better than a single geekbench score from an unfinished device), there is really no way to say so with certainty, which is what some people here are doing (and that is only after they were forced to admit that their original claims of it being stock A73 was unsupported and almost certainly false).

Either way though, until we get more information, this discussion is fairly pointless, so we might as well all move on.

I'm curious though, since the aim of the built on ARM license is primarily for marketing purposes, would the license potentially allow someone to take an actual stock A73 core with zero changes/customization and rebrand it?
Qualcomm said it was using the new license for the 835. They can't change much of the stock Cortex cores with this license. So it is just a Cortex A73 with some minor tweaks. Can you stop running the same circle all the time it gets tiresome.
 

antihelten

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
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Qualcomm said it was using the new license for the 835. They can't change much of the stock Cortex cores with this license. So it is just a Cortex A73 with some minor tweaks. Can you stop running the same circle all the time it gets tiresome.

Not changing much, is not the same thing as changing nothing, and unless they have changed nothing then it is not the same as a stock A73 core like you were claiming earlier.

I know it's annoying when people call you out for making false unsupported claims, but them's the breaks.
 

dawheat

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
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Not changing much, is not the same thing as changing nothing, and unless they have changed nothing then it is not the same as a stock A73 core like you were claiming earlier.

I know it's annoying when people call you out for making false unsupported claims, but them's the breaks.
You're being deliberately obtuse and getting hung up on semantics. If you're trying to "win" a point that it's not 100% identical to the A73 core then bravo, you win. All folks are saying is that all signs point to the 835 being practically identical to the A73 and what little changes QC makes won't be noticeable to the end user and are there mostly to save face.

Nothing from the careful wording of the license, to early info from those closer to the industry, to early benchmarks are supporting anything different. And yes of course no one will know for sure until the first 835 device is released but there is nothing to support the idea that it's going to be practically different.
 
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antihelten

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
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You're being deliberately obtuse and getting hung up on semantics. If you're trying to "win" a point that it's not 100% identical to the A73 core then bravo, you win. All folks are saying is that all signs point to the 835 being practically identical to the A73 and what little changes QC makes won't be noticeable to the end user and are there mostly to save face.

Apparently you missed the start of the thread where people weren't just claiming that it was practically identical to the A73, but rather that it was literally the A73. And if you think that the difference between a stock A73 and a custom A73 is just semantics, then I really don't know what you're doing on a tech forum.

I never denied that the changes might be insignificant and thus unnoticable (only that there wasn't really enough info available currently to say so conclusively), so I don't know why you're banging on about that.

Nothing from the careful wording of the license

Do you have a link to this wording, I would love to see it?
 
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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Apparently you missed the start of the thread where people weren't just claiming that it was practically identical to the A73, but rather that it was literally the A73.

I tell you. Some people just dont get the important details !
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
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I was not giving a critic to the Kryo part which was a real Kryo, but on the little part which is very suspicious if is the ARM A53 and is not possible due instructions. Also the A53 cores are in order, while the Kryo are out or order and the latests ones are needed for emulating Windows.
 

Lodix

Senior member
Jun 24, 2016
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I was not giving a critic to the Kryo part which was a real Kryo, but on the little part which is very suspicious if is the ARM A53 and is not possible due instructions. Also the A53 cores are in order, while the Kryo are out or order and the latests ones are needed for emulating Windows.
They can just disable the little cores while emulating windows. Like they do when implementing the Nvidia X1 in their shield or Pixel C.
 

ChronoReverse

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
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The real question is whether Qualcomm will screw up implementing A73 like they did with the SD810. I'm not terribly concerned that it's not a custom core, I just want a fast and efficient chip.


It looks like ARM's new Bifrost GPU is finally up to snuff (in performance at least, I'll have to wait for reviews on sustained performance). I wonder if QC will update Adreno enough to match up.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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Apparently you missed the start of the thread where people weren't just claiming that it was practically identical to the A73, but rather that it was literally the A73. And if you think that the difference between a stock A73 and a custom A73 is just semantics, then I really don't know what you're doing on a tech forum.

I never denied that the changes might be insignificant and thus unnoticable (only that there wasn't really enough info available currently to say so conclusively), so I don't know why you're banging on about that.

Do you have a link to this wording, I would love to see it?

Just a heads up that it's pretty obvious you're only shitposting to save face.
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
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The real question is whether Qualcomm will screw up implementing A73 like they did with the SD810. I'm not terribly concerned that it's not a custom core, I just want a fast and efficient chip.


It looks like ARM's new Bifrost GPU is finally up to snuff (in performance at least, I'll have to wait for reviews on sustained performance). I wonder if QC will update Adreno enough to match up.
Sadly Bifrost was shown in the Huawei Mate 9 and failed hard. If the Power VR from Mediatek is better... They are done for.
 

Lodix

Senior member
Jun 24, 2016
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Sadly Bifrost was shown in the Huawei Mate 9 and failed hard. If the Power VR from Mediatek is better... They are done for.
The are different ways of implementing an ARM architecture... Huawei goes for cheap and inefficient. If you go wider and medium clock you can get very efficient but costly GPU. The next Exynos will be MP20 ( or more ) compared to the MP8 on the Kirin 960. And then Software plays a role too and how aggressive you want your devices to throttle every OEM has a last word there.
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
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The are different ways of implementing an ARM architecture... Huawei goes for cheap and inefficient. If you go wider and medium clock you can get very efficient but costly GPU. The next Exynos will be MP20 ( or more ) compared to the MP8 on the Kirin 960. And then Software plays a role too and how aggressive you want your devices to throttle every OEM has a last word there.
The GPU is not that efficient then compared to Power VR or even Vivante.
 

Lodix

Senior member
Jun 24, 2016
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The GPU is not that efficient then compared to Power VR or even Vivante.
Again, you can't compare architectures just based on the Kirin 960 GPU. And we don't have any recent Power VR on Android so we can't compare. This new G-71 brings around 60-80% more performance per cluster compared to the T880 at same power ( or less(?) because T880 MP8 at 900MHz consumes around 3'5W, doubling the cores would mean double the power and it would be too much for a phone ). So it is more efficient than the Adreno 540. The GPU implementation of the Exynos 8890 is about the same performance/power of the SD820 based on the S7 review long term performance battery test.
 
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