Fukushima upgraded to Cat 7 TEPCO: Radiation leak may have topped Chernobyl release

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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
So you're saying it's not possible for a nuclear power plant to melt down and release fuel to the environment? Even if they don't get those backup generators in place to power the cooling systems?

The fuel came from the environment in the first place. The ground is full of that stuff. Cry baby.
 

novasatori

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2003
3,851
1
0
So you're saying it's not possible for a nuclear power plant to melt down and release fuel to the environment? Even if they don't get those backup generators in place to power the cooling systems?

A complete and total meltdown where the fuel melts through the inner vessel and seeps through the concrete to the land beneath the outer containment wall is the absolutely worst case scenario, and sure it could be possible.

But that's like saying we should stop flying because an airplane could blow up on take off and litter a city with flaming wreckage no matter how low the odds.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
I thought nuclear power had no risk, because they were self quenching or some crap like that. But now you're telling me they need BATTERIES to power backup cooling to prevent a meltdown?

Here's the Rachel Maddow segment:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/

It sounds like no nuclear power plant is designed to handle the maximum possible earthquakes well.

Here, what happened is that when the plant is shut down, as they are in a dangerous situation like this after the earthquake, that was done; power to the plant was lost in the earthquake, but it was using its backup diesel engines. Until 55 minutes later when the Tsunami hit and those were knocked out.

So, at that point, the systems to cool the fuel in the shutdown, which need power, had none. And then it's a race to get power to them before something bad happens.

It's not clear just what would happen - depends on things like whether the containment chamber would hold the fuel.

But ya, that's why they rushed mobile battery power supplies.

I haven't checked the news in a few hours, but hopefully it prevented a leak.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,811
10,346
136
Those were BOMBS. Bombs by design turn matter into energy, so of course there's not a lot of fuel being left on the landscape to gradually decay
http://www.straightdope.com/columns...did-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-recover-so-quickly

The bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki produced their share of residual radiation, but it didn't stick around long, for two reasons. First, both bombs were detonated more than 500 meters above street level so as to wreak maximum destruction (surrounding buildings would have blocked much of the force of ground-level explosions). That limited surface contamination, since most of the radioactive debris was carried off in the mushroom cloud instead of being embedded in the earth. There was plenty of lethal fallout in the form of "ashes of death" and "black rain," but it was spread over a fairly wide area.

hence why i cited chernobyl being an example of what happens when you build a shitty reactor and let it blow up
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
She really nailed that discussion, I'm quite impressed (more with her than with the scientist).

However one thing that the scientist overstates is the effects of radioactive steam venting. Also, his attitude about how the nuclear industry doesn't take DBE events seriously kind of pisses me off too.

Glad you liked her segment. Here's another from the same show, about the Tsunamis.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#42041284

Very impressive IMO for the show she did today, better than other news shows - all of this in less than a day.

Her news show is my favorite. Hopefully more will find her show.
 
May 11, 2008
20,055
1,290
126
The risk when a nuclear power plant gets damaged is release of radioactive material. That's far worse than fire or explosions or smoke. And that's what happened here.

You can rationalize nuclear power all you want, with stupid comparisons to the downsides of other power sources... but face it, there is a fucking reason we are so concerned about nations becoming nuclear weapons capable, when we aren't concerned about them having conventional weapons. Smoke and fire goes away within a human lifetime.

I will put more faith in CLite then in you. You are like most people who condemn everything but you will also not give up all your worldly possessions. With your reasoning, you should also not drive an automobile or use public transport, no shopping, no clothing. No PC ,no game console , no smartphone.


I did some digging :
The reactor models are of type BWR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_water_reactor

Nowadays there are far more advanced and inherently save designs.
But people like you prevent completion of such technology.
Your attempt to invoke mass hysteria is useless and foolish. You cannot have everything for free.

I'm sorry but I see a country with fires burning everywhere, all sorts of random industrial sites are blowing up, hundreds are dead, and a nuclear facility right on the ocean got smacked by the largest recorded earthquake in Japanese history and by a follow up Tsunami and not a SINGLE person is dead from that facility. Meanwhile not a SINGLE containment dome has been breached.

Your sarcasm is well placed, clearly nuclear power plants have terrible designs.

I find it rather amazing and with an older reactor model (i assume highly upgraded 1950s model ?)it seems.

Old technology is old technology.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
So you're saying it's not possible for a nuclear power plant to melt down and release fuel to the environment?

Newer style reactors are pretty full proof

The older type PWR such as this most certainly can and do become sons of Chernobyl such as in Japan now.

I am surrounded by the newer type here and don't worry about them.

Did you know Illinois has the most reactors in the U.S? Most are the newer type that won't meltdown.
 
May 11, 2008
20,055
1,290
126
Sigh...

I sure hope that nothing happens to all those poor people, besides the obvious poor victims.


Being logical and insensitive for a moment : Thorium reactors will probably never be created now.

It is old but might be handy for those interested :

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/348

What if we could build a nuclear reactor that offered no possibility of a meltdown, generated its power inexpensively, created no weapons-grade by-products, and burnt up existing high-level waste as well as old nuclear weapon stockpiles? And what if the waste produced by such a reactor was radioactive for a mere few hundred years rather than tens of thousands? It may sound too good to be true, but such a reactor is indeed possible, and a number of teams around the world are now working to make it a reality. What makes this incredible reactor so different is its fuel source: thorium.

Named after Thor, the warlike Norse god of thunder, thorium could ironically prove a potent instrument of peace as well as a tool to soothe the world's changing climate. With the demand for energy on the increase around the world, and the implications of climate change beginning to strike home, governments are increasingly considering nuclear power as a possible alternative to burning fossil fuels.

But nuclear power comes with its own challenges. Public concerns over the risk of meltdown, disposal of long-lived and highly toxic radioactive waste, the generation of weapons grade by-products, and their corresponding proliferation risks, all can make nuclear power a big vote-loser.

A thorium reactor is different. And, on paper at least, this radical new technology could be the key to unlocking a new generation of clean and safe nuclear power. It could prove the circuit-breaker to the two most intractable problems of the 21st century: our insatiable thirst for energy
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
The reactor that melted down...... Why didn't they turn it into a mall?

And why did they have to clean up the fuel and ship it to a DOE site? You can't with one breath say nuclear power is clean and safe, and with the next breath acknowledge that they had to do a cleanup and ship out the fuel and contaminated material.

Just because something is hazardous doesn't mean it can't be made safe. While this is of course a terrible tragedy, keep in mind that coal miners die ever day while this meltdown will not result in the loss of any lives due to public radiation exposure. And this is in the wake of a historic once-in-a-century megaquake.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally Posted by Throckmorton
The reactor that melted down...... Why didn't they turn it into a mall?

And why did they have to clean up the fuel and ship it to a DOE site? You can't with one breath say nuclear power is clean and safe, and with the next breath acknowledge that they had to do a cleanup and ship out the fuel and contaminated material.



Just because something is hazardous doesn't mean it can't be made safe. While this is of course a terrible tragedy, keep in mind that coal miners die ever day while this meltdown will not result in the loss of any lives due to public radiation exposure. And this is in the wake of a historic once-in-a-century megaquake.

There is no use talking to people devoid of critical thinking.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
136
could this cause a Chernobyl type of event?
Simple answer: no.

The chernobyl reactors used graphite cores to moderate the nuclear reactions. During the disaster, inadequate cooling caused the core to overheat, the containment vessel was breached in an explosion (released hydrogen blew, I think it was), and the core was exposed to outside air and caught fire.

The fire - which burned for days - caused radioactive smoke to pour out into the atmosphere, which is the major source of the radiation released.

The Japanese powerplants don't use graphite cores, so there's nothing there to catch fire and burn like happened in Chernobyl.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
When 9/11 occurred my family was about 30 miles as the crow flies from a nuclear reactor in central VA. I worried that the next plane might fly into the reactor, but then reassured myself that ten foot thick steal reinforced concrete walls could take the punishment. Then the Pentagon was hit which has similar reinforced walls.

Nothing is fool proof and Chernobyl was a disaster of epic proportions. I'm not against nuclear power, but the technology is still relatively new, the stakes can be extremely high, and the US is dead in the path of the prevailing winds.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
Several high-speed trains were also swept away and at least 4 are unaccounted for.

Proves how dangerous high-speed trains are. Probably hundreds of people on each, all dead.

More will die from these high-speed trains than from anything having to do with this power plant.

I'm glad Throck agrees.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
136
Proves how dangerous high-speed trains are. Probably hundreds of people on each, all dead.
Lol, is that a joke? Bad attempt at internet sarcasm?

Hundreds, if not thousands of people die in airplane crashes every year. Tens of thousands are killed by handguns, even more in automobile accidents. Proves how dangerous all of those things are, yes?!

If you're gotta blame anything for the deaths of those people, blame the friggin' earthquake.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
Lol, is that a joke? Bad attempt at internet sarcasm?

Hundreds, if not thousands of people die in airplane crashes every year. Tens of thousands are killed by handguns, even more in automobile accidents. Proves how dangerous all of those things are, yes?!

If you're gotta blame anything for the deaths of those people, blame the friggin' earthquake.

And how many people have died from nuclear reactors over the last 10 years?
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
The radioactive stuff from a meltdown/fallout goes into our ecosystem for a long time. I, for one, will probably not eat sushi made from fish caught in Japan for a while.

I hope everything turns out fine in this disaster but it does show that you can't make things 100% safe, not even nuclear. Maybe the engineers did not anticipate that a tsunami would struck and disable the diesel engines for cooling?

I guess if an asteroid strikes the earth and creates a Richter 11.0 earthquake, all buildings would fall. In such cases though, most people will die anyway, so it doesn't matter. This tsunami was well within the realm of possibility of happening, in this plant's 40 year lifespan at least. Why didn't they build it at a site that's 6 or 7' higher...?

It is perfectly legitimate to question the safety of nuclear power. We would not be having this discussion had all the possible scenarios were properly accounted for and designed to withstand by engineers.
 
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