Fukushima upgraded to Cat 7 TEPCO: Radiation leak may have topped Chernobyl release

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May 11, 2008
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The better question is, how many are about to?

Not much (in the future) if listened to people in the radioactive field of research :

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/features/print/348/new-age-nuclear?page=0%2C2

THIS IS WHERE THORIUM steps in. Thorium itself is a metal in the actinide series, which is a run of 15 heavy radioactive elements that occupy their own period in the periodic table between actinium and lawrencium. Thorium sits on the periodic table two spots to the left (making it lighter) of the only other naturally occurring actinide, uranium (which is two spots to the left of synthetic plutonium). This means thorium and uranium share several characteristics.

According to Reza Hashemi-Nezhad, a nuclear physicist at the University of Sydney who has been studying the thorium fuel cycle, the most important point is that they both can absorb neutrons and transmute into fissile elements. "From the neutron-absorption point of view, U-238 is very similar to Th-232", he said.

It's these similarities that make thorium a potential alternative fuel for nuclear reactors. But it's the unique differences between thorium and uranium that make it a potentially superior fuel. First of all, unlike U-235 and Pu-239, thorium is not fissile, so no matter how much thorium you pack together, it will not start splitting atoms and blow up. This is because it cannot undergo nuclear fission by itself and it cannot sustain a nuclear chain reaction once one starts. It's a wannabe atom splitter incapable of taking the grand title.

What makes thorium suitable as a nuclear fuel is that it is fertile, much like U-238.

Natural thorium (Th-232) absorbs a neutron and quickly transmutes into unstable Th-233 and then into protactinium Pa-233, before quickly decaying into U-233, says Hashemi- Nezhad. The beauty of this complicated process is that the U-233 that's produced at the end of this breeding process is similar to U-235 and is fissile, making it suitable as a nuclear fuel. In this way, it talks like uranium and walks like uranium, but it ain't your common-or-garden variety uranium.


And this is where it gets interesting: thorium has a very different fuel cycle to uranium. The most significant benefit of thorium's journey comes from the fact that it is a lighter element than uranium. While it's fertile, it doesn't produce as many heavy and as many highly radioactive by-products. The absence of U-238 in the process also means that no plutonium is bred in the reactor.

As a result, the waste produced from burning thorium in a reactor is dramatically less radioactive than conventional nuclear waste. Where a uranium-fuelled reactor like many of those operating today might generate a tonne of high-level waste that stays toxic for tens of thousands of years, a reactor fuelled only by thorium will generate a fraction of this amount. And it would stay radioactive for only 500 years - after which it would be as manageable as coal ash.


So not only would there be less waste, the waste generated would need to be locked up for only five per cent of the time compared to most nuclear waste. Not surprisingly, the technical challenges in storing a smaller amount for 500 years are much lower than engineering something to be solid, secure and discreet for 10,000 years.

But wait, there's more: thorium has another remarkable property. Add plutonium to the mix - or any other radioactive actinide - and the thorium fuel process will actually incinerate these elements. That's right: it will chew up old nuclear waste as part of the power-generation process. It could not only generate power, but also act as a waste disposal plant for some of humanity's most heinous toxic waste.

This is especially significant when it comes to plutonium, which has proven very hard to dispose of using conventional means.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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Rumors now of meltdown of reactor #1. Video of massive explosion -looks like the building took a good hit.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
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The core is still intact. The amount of radiation that has been released so far doesn't constitute a serious environment problem. This is more in the TMI category than the Chernobyl category right now.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
The core is still intact. The amount of radiation that has been released so far doesn't constitute a serious environment problem. This is more in the TMI category than the Chernobyl category right now.

TMI didn't pop its outer containment building open in a giant explosion. What's going to be left will look at lot more like Chernobyl. Hopefully the core is safe. I cannot see the actual building its in collapsing making cooling any easier. Anyone an engineer want to weigh in on the damage this could cause to cooling efforts? The pipe infrastructure must be damaged in some form and needing patching in a hostile environment immediately.

Can anyone confirm it was the actual reactors containment building that went up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjx-JlwYtyE&
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
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Simple answer: no.

The chernobyl reactors used graphite cores to moderate the nuclear reactions. During the disaster, inadequate cooling caused the core to overheat, the containment vessel was breached in an explosion (released hydrogen blew, I think it was), and the core was exposed to outside air and caught fire.

The fire - which burned for days - caused radioactive smoke to pour out into the atmosphere, which is the major source of the radiation released.

The Japanese powerplants don't use graphite cores, so there's nothing there to catch fire and burn like happened in Chernobyl.

Not to mention that the containment vessels are apparently different between the reactors. However, according to Dave (who knows everything) it can be.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
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Burning coal releases 100 times as much radioactive material into the environment then nuclear power plants. Notably the US is also in the path of all the coal being burned in China and Canada today. However, the problem is not merely how much radiation, but how concentrated over time and not merely how many will die, but how many will suffer serious physical problems such as cancer.

Such effects can show up 20 years or more down the road as spikes in cancer rates like the epidemic of breast cancer among women in the US during the 1990s. To this day no one has an explanation for the sudden increase, but it is almost certainly due to an environmental contamination in the previous decades. That's not just death, pain, and suffering, but medical costs of $40,000.oo and up per case.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
81
TMI didn't pop its outer containment building open in a giant explosion. What's going to be left will look at lot more like Chernobyl. Hopefully the core is safe. I cannot see the actual building its in collapsing making cooling any easier. Anyone an engineer want to weigh in on the damage this could cause to cooling efforts? The pipe infrastructure must be damaged in some form and needing patching in a hostile environment immediately.

Can anyone confirm it was the actual reactors containment building that went up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjx-JlwYtyE&

The containment vessel is still intact. The explosion was from equipment inside the reactor building but outside the containment vessel.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Update:

Reuters reported that TEPCO plans to cool the leaking reactor with sea water, using Boric Acid to prevent criticality. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said "The concrete building collapsed. We found out that the reactor container inside didn't explode." He explained that the explosion was due to the falling level of cooling water, creating hydrogen subsequently exploded. Edano said it would take about five to 10 hours to fill the reactor core with sea water and around 10 days to complete the process.

The core is hot and leaking, hopefully they can get it cool. Sounds just like Chernobyl, pouring the boron in to keep it from exploding.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
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*edit*Oops I got lost in this thread, this was addressed to alphatarget.

Nuclear reactor safety is always an open subject in which the NRC and other organizations around the world encourage public peer review and they are always looking for shortcomings. I'm quite sure Japan will be improving the structures around it's diesel generators in tsunami prone locations now. There is also a high probability that for USA coastal plants the NRC will issue a Generic Letter to question potential gaps in safety.

The nuclear industry has never claimed 100% safety, it's simply impossible to achieve. However, it is 99.999999999% safety which means despite the dire consequences far more people die from multitudes of other industries / services that you might otherwise think is reasonable safe.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
136
Burning coal releases 100 times as much radioactive material into the environment then nuclear power plants.
That's a strawman argument. Nuclear accidents release their radioactivity into a much smaller area; the concentration is much higher and so is the danger.

To this day no one has an explanation for the sudden increase, but it is almost certainly due to an environmental contamination in the previous decades.
Afaik, there has been no studies that prove breast cancer in women is due to radioactive decay originating from coal-burning powerplants. With cancers, chemical agents in our daily environment (cigarette smoke, car exhaust fumes, brominated flame retardants and so on) is a much higher risk factor than radiation.

The containment vessel is still intact. The explosion was from equipment inside the reactor building but outside the containment vessel.
What equipment inside the building could possibly cause such an explosion? Have you seen the videos? There was a gigantic shockwave when the building blew up. The outer shell's completely wrecked. To say with any degree of certainty the status of the core seems premature, heavy debris could easily have fallen into it and caused all sorts of damage.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
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Oil? Oil Spills...
Coal? Trapped miners...
Wind? No one wants those eye sores destroying their scenic views...

guess you can't make all the people happy all the time...
No you can't. All have problems. I am just saying this will be some more odds stacked against nuclear industry. Overall it's a "safe" way of getting power, probably more so than overall damage from coal, oil burning, etc. but people are more able to remember distinct events than pain by attrition.
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
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No you can't. All have problems. I am just saying this will be some more odds stacked against nuclear industry. Overall it's a "safe" way of getting power, probably more so than overall damage from coal, oil burning, etc. but people are more able to remember distinct events than pain by attrition.

Its kinda the same thing with airplane crashes. People die in car crashes every single day, but when an airplane crashes everyone hears about, many more people die, frightens people. An airplane crash is more scary than a car crash, even though a car crash is far more likely to kill you.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,863
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Several high-speed trains were also swept away and at least 4 are unaccounted for.

Proves how dangerous high-speed trains are. Probably hundreds of people on each, all dead.

More will die from these high-speed trains than from anything having to do with this power plant.

I'm glad Throck agrees.

The very worst HSR disaster in history had a 30% fatality rate. Everyone does not instantly die when there is a derailment.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,863
34,808
136
What equipment inside the building could possibly cause such an explosion? Have you seen the videos? There was a gigantic shockwave when the building blew up. The outer shell's completely wrecked. To say with any degree of certainty the status of the core seems premature, heavy debris could easily have fallen into it and caused all sorts of damage.

Water level in the core drops too low and you get hydrogen generated which was probably being vented along with steam into the building between the containment and the outside. Hydrogen + oxygen + confined space = poof

The most troubling aspect would be that the unit's last cooling systems may have bought it due to the explosion. Thus the plan to fill the containment with seawater and boric acid.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
As of 11:20 AM JST, a part of the "fuel assembly" of fuel rods is now exposed above water. The maximum exposure as of now is about 90 cm.

Something blew alright.
 

KDOG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,561
14
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Wow. Guys, c'mon lets' quit the insults and arguing. Lets' just stick to the actual facts and keep an eye on what WE over here might have to do because of it. As a person big into preparation, I would like to remind people to think about their own disaster preparations....
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
lol I never thought I would post this link seriously, there is good info here about fallout, most of it from the old 50s civil service and 1980s cold war. It's more geared toward the unlucky individual with the problem of getting ICBM warheads dropped on or nearby you, but still useful info about living in fallout. Good luck!
 
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PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
The very worst HSR disaster in history had a 30% fatality rate. Everyone does not instantly die when there is a derailment.

Odds of survival probably increase when a derailed train can be found.

Also, these got hit by a tsunami and cannot be found.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
That's a strawman argument. Nuclear accidents release their radioactivity into a much smaller area; the concentration is much higher and so is the danger.

If you are going to quote philosophical techno-babble then I'd suggest that you actually learn the meaning first.

A straw man argument is a misrepresentation of someone's argument. In this case, you took one statement I made out of context and proceeded to misrepresent my argument. Go ahead, just try to prove I ever asserted that nuclear accidents are less dangerous. Otherwise I suggest you spout less techno-babble and pay attention to what people actually write.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Tsunami sounds like a Japanese word, is it ?

I would expect Japanese engineers would design nuclear power plants to withstand such a disaster,

apparently the design expected diesel engines to operate underwater ?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,863
34,808
136
Odds of survival probably increase when a derailed train can be found.

Also, these got hit by a tsunami and cannot be found.

A ship with 100 people aboard is also missing. Should we give up on ships too?
 
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