Fukushima upgraded to Cat 7 TEPCO: Radiation leak may have topped Chernobyl release

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OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
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I think its worse off than what the news reports.

but thats the cynic in me talkin
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
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I think its worse off than what the news reports.

but thats the cynic in me talkin

Very well could be, I was just thinking that what is most concerning is how much we don't know yet. It seems like if enough personnel were able to get to the sites, we would have a better idea. I just don't think we are appreciating the scale of this disaster yet, even after several days.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
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It's not so much cutting corners, as a different design philosophy.


Riiiight. It's just a different design philosophy. And the fact that Westinghouse sells them to other countries, while they are illegal in the US is just a philosophical difference of opinion!
 
May 11, 2008
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!#%^!#^!#^!#$^!#^#$%^#&

NO! Corn Ethanol takes a total of 8 calories to produce 1 calorie of fuel. It is environmentally devastating because it requires fertilizer / massive irrigation and has a very inefficient conversion process. Corn Ethanol is a big business subsidy for the massive farming companies, that's all there is to it.

Now sugar cane is definitely better, but it still isn't some magical carbon neutral process.

I fully agree with you. There is no such thing as free energy. When you grow vegetables by definition the result is always less then what you put in to it.
People think that solar radiation which is EM radiation which is nothing more then photons(for simplicity) are turned magically into atoms used as building blocks. No people, this is not the case. The radiation is used to power energy expensive reactions. Plants and all other life too, take building blocks (read atoms of different elements) and use EM radiation to connect the atoms together as desired. That is what life does.

As a side note : I can tell you what hell means : It is not a hot place filled with energy and fire and brimstone. It is a cold place, a void without EM radiation or any atoms. Perfect void in all dimensions. In such a void no life can naturally be created.

To return to the ethanol corn utopia :
From different perspectives such as waste processing and leaching the ground to an empty and death state. Nature will always find a way to live in toxic environments for existing life, but when that happens, all other lifeforms who cannot with stand the toxic will have a problem. Evolution will just start into a certain direction at a faster pace. And that might be a dead end for other life as we know it.
Growing vegetables for fuel is the most idiotic idea there is. Not until we fully understand genetics and life and can safely produce exactly what we want, it will be possible to properly use just proteins to create what we need. All these green options are not green at all if you take into account all the side effects and after post processing. What we want is a little biological state machine that instead of replicating, the sole purpose is to generate hydrogen bound in such a way to other molecules that it is easy to release when we want to but safely to transport. It will be a slight reduction in efficiency but also an increase in safety. Again, in nature we have to properly deal with the laws of nature. And research is being done.


The construction, operation and fueling of thorium reactors is considerably more complex.

The use of uranium fuel is well understood, and can be done simply. You can build a very basic reactor that runs on natural (unenriched) uranium, without the need for exotic materials or alloys. The British constructed a number of power reactors in the 50s, building the reactor vessels out of concrete, with a graphite core, and fuel consisting of unenriched uranium oxide powder in an aluminimum casing. Because of the great simplicity of uranium reactors (and the side benefit that they could be used to produce plutonium for weapons), they proliferated, and the designs were progressively refined.

Driven by the need for weapons, some research was done into plutonium fuel cycles, these have been little used due to the huge costs and complexities of 'reprocessing' the plutonium out of extremely radioactive waste. Only France, Japan and the UK use significnat plutonium fuel - and the UK has largely abandoned it as it's too expensive and dangerous to reprocess (compared to the amount of uranium saved) - lots of specialist remote manipulator equipment is needed, corrosive acids with intensely radioactive substances dissolved in them which are kept boiling hot by the decay heat from teh radioactivity; the complexity of reprocessing is not to be understimated.

Thorium is not a fuel in and of itself. However, when irradiated in a reactor, it is possible to convert the thorium into fuel, which can then be extracted by a reprocessing method. There is a huge amount of subtlety involved in working out how much thorium can go in, in which way it goes in, etc. (e.g. some designs require numerous different types of fuel element with different fuel/thorium blends, each of which must be loaded into different zones of the reactor for different periords of time - this is a big departure from current reactors, where there is typically one type of fuel module which are all replaced after the same amount of time)

Not only that, but thorium produces U-233 fuel, which is a very strong gamma emitter with relatively short half life, making the fresh fuel for the reactor extremely radioactive. By contrast natural (or enriched) uranium fuel can be hand made, and man-handled for delivery and loading. Even plutonium fuel is safe to handle for short periods (albeit not recommended). U-233 fuel requires an exclusion zone - all manufacturing, handling, inspection, etc. must be by remote control.

In short, thorium requires more complex reactor design, very complex fuel handling, and a nuclear reprocessing infrastructure.


With all respect, you make thorium and it's fuel cycle sound far worse then plutonium or uranium. And i think that is not fair. Ofcourse it has a dangerous side, but do not take it out of proportion. It is still a non radioactive material that is made radioactive to be used as fuel. Thus it is obvious it generates radiation as well. I personally wonder about how much research is being done in scintillation to lower the energy and turn the radiation step after step into less energetic photons that can be used to create electricity. But i am wondering of the subject.

First the advantages.
1# I am not an expert but with the Thorium cycle, existing radioactive waste is used. That is an advantage.

2# The nuclear reaction cannot sustain itself, that is a big plus because it is the biggest fear that a melt down can occur with the result of releasing radioactive material in the wild. The fear is that we have no control over the amount of radioactive material released and what it will do. Once it is in the wild we have a problem. The fuel cycle may be seem to be more radioactive( only shortly) but it is located at one position in the reactor where we have control over it. As such, the radiation in the reactor is a non issue when comparing to existing designs. You cannot possibly deny that current generation and next generation reactors do not produce highly radioactive material which is much more radioactive for a longer period.

Analogy :
As an analogy, suppose we can produce a large amount of hydrogen. When all people drive with an automobile with an hydrogen tank, just by the numbers, the chance that something will go wrong and such a car will explode with accompanying victims is large . This is the case when comparing with this situation : When all automobiles are using a rechargeable electrical storage medium that does not explode as easy as compressed hydrogen and these automobiles are charged at a stationary facility where the locally stored compressed hydrogen is used to create electricity to charge the automobiles. It is all about controlling the situation and minimizing risks. We cannot break the laws of nature but we can use the laws against themselves.
End analogy


3# I am guessing here, but there is enough thorium to last for another 8 centuries while taking into account the increasing consumption of energy.

Now as in every situation there are hurdles to be taken.
And those are the ones you mentioned. But to be honest. is a horse with carriage also not a lot simpler then an ICE automobile or an electric automobile ? We deal with nature. We deal with the rules of the universe and as such we always have to come up with complicated and difficult solutions. Otherwise the human race would never have come as far as it has.

To put it in the autotuned words of Charly Sheen :
We are always winning.
That is how we roll.
That is how we go.
That is how we flow. :awe:
 
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semievolved

Junior Member
Mar 13, 2011
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I found this discussion as the closest match to the above description but I still haven't found an answer to the question exactly.

Does anybody here know what the actual design basis earthquake was for this facility? I have read it was tested to withstand a 7.9 but that's not the direct answer.

When I used to do safety analysis (long time ago) the DBE was supposed to have a chance of less than one in a million of occurring during the anticipated lifespan of the facility.

Did this event exceed the DBE?
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
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With all respect, you make thorium and it's fuel cycle sound far worse then plutonium or uranium. And i think that is not fair. Ofcourse it has a dangerous side, but do not take it out of proportion. It is still a non radioactive material that is made radioactive to be used as fuel. Thus it is obvious it generates radiation as well. I personally wonder about how much research is being done in scintillation to lower the energy and turn the radiation step after step into less energetic photons that can be used to create electricity. But i am wondering of the subject.
Thorium is not a simple fuel cycle, which is why it hasn't been developed so far.

First the advantages.
1# I am not an expert but with the Thorium cycle, existing radioactive waste is used. That is an advantage.
The fuel needed for a thorium reactor is either U-233 (from thorium breeding), or Pu-239 (if you are building your first few thorium reactors). A thorium reactor will not breed if fuelled with natural or enriched uranium (U-235).

Once a U-233 infrastructure is up and running, it is possible for a small amount of heavy waste nuclides (e.g. Plutonium, Neptunium, Californium, etc.) that have been reprocessed from conventional PWR/BWR fuel to be added and burned. However, these waste materials, while they do act as fuels, are very difficult to control (they have a very low delayed neutron fraction), so can only be burned in very small quantities. This means that as a method of destroying these wastes, thorium reactors are not ideal.

2# The nuclear reaction cannot sustain itself, that is a big plus because it is the biggest fear that a melt down can occur with the result of releasing radioactive material in the wild.
The reaction is self sustaining. The operation of a reactor using U-233 (from thorium) fuel is little different to one using U-235 or mixed fuel.

The differences are that with U-233 fuel, the amount of very long-half life (> 500 years) waste produced is considerably less. Nevertheless, the waste would still need isolation for several hundred years.

India is developing thorium reactors using modified designs of conventional PWRs (the problem with this is that 3 different types of reactor are needed to start up the complex thorium fuel cycle).

However, there are radical new reactor designs that are better suited to thorium than earlier designs. One example is the molten salt reactor. This is ideally suited to thorium fuel, and has a number of highly desirable safety characteristics. However, there is virtually no experience with this type of reactor which is radically different to any commercial reactor used before, and its use requires a completely new nuclear reprocessing technology to be developed.

Molten salt technology is at least 30 years off.
 
May 11, 2008
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Thorium is not a simple fuel cycle, which is why it hasn't been developed so far.


The fuel needed for a thorium reactor is either U-233 (from thorium breeding), or Pu-239 (if you are building your first few thorium reactors). A thorium reactor will not breed if fuelled with natural or enriched uranium (U-235).

Once a U-233 infrastructure is up and running, it is possible for a small amount of heavy waste nuclides (e.g. Plutonium, Neptunium, Californium, etc.) that have been reprocessed from conventional PWR/BWR fuel to be added and burned. However, these waste materials, while they do act as fuels, are very difficult to control (they have a very low delayed neutron fraction), so can only be burned in very small quantities. This means that as a method of destroying these wastes, thorium reactors are not ideal.


The reaction is self sustaining. The operation of a reactor using U-233 (from thorium) fuel is little different to one using U-235 or mixed fuel.
This i do not understand. From what i understand of it, the U-233 must be created, meaning the thorium itself is changed to U-233 by use of the other materials (The proper uranium isotopes or material as plutonium). When there is no more thorium changed in U-233 the whole reaction just fades out. I am not an expert, but it is similar as gain in an electrical amplifier circuit. From what i have understood of it, the gain of the thorium cycle is less then 1. meaning it cannot sustain it self. This is also one of the arguments of using thorium instead of uranium. Can you explain your point of view ?


The differences are that with U-233 fuel, the amount of very long-half life (> 500 years) waste produced is considerably less. Nevertheless, the waste would still need isolation for several hundred years.

True but you must also not forget that research will not stand still. If nuclear research becomes more active, we will find a way to solve that issue. I mean a century ago we did not have the technology we have now. But we did have the ideas. That waste will be solved, while it is a lot less dangerous.
And it is only 500 years instead of 10.000 years or more.

I mean, maybe it is possible to use fungi. For example, it seems melanin (yes the pigment) has some extraordinary capabilities of capturing high energy ionizing EM radiation. Much higher then was previously known. That fungi that uses melanin i am writing about was found inside the destroyed reactor of yes indeed :reactor 4 of Chernobyl. There is still much to be learned.

India is developing thorium reactors using modified designs of conventional PWRs (the problem with this is that 3 different types of reactor are needed to start up the complex thorium fuel cycle).

However, there are radical new reactor designs that are better suited to thorium than earlier designs. One example is the molten salt reactor. This is ideally suited to thorium fuel, and has a number of highly desirable safety characteristics. However, there is virtually no experience with this type of reactor which is radically different to any commercial reactor used before, and its use requires a completely new nuclear reprocessing technology to be developed.

Molten salt technology is at least 30 years off.


Ofcourse all these technologies is decades away. But i find it very important that to stimulate any possibility in this research area it is important to paint an honest picture. Because no matter how you compare thorium with current nuclear facilities. The thorium fuel cycle wins on every aspect except ease of use.

I mean even the praised fusion reactor based on the tokamak creates what i understand of it neutron radiation. That means it also creates the most dangerous form of radiation people in the field still do not fully understand how to handle and is the major cause of the high cost of nuclear reactors.
Only the experimental Bussard fusion reactor does not create neutron radiation but needs fuel that is very rare on earth.

I am just writing that nothing is ideal. Based on economy uranium might win at the moment but then i prefer the generation 4 or higher designs such as the pebble reactors. But in reality even uranium is already limited in amounts that are available and thus it is just not wise to invest in uranium reactors if all large population countries start using uranium. I mean then we get just another oil scenario over a few decades because of shortages. It is just delaying the inevitable.

Thorium fuel cycle reactors are much more promising but i agree very expensive at the moment because it is new and there is more theory then practice. But i do not believe that with the current knowledge that is gained with building for example the LHC near Geneva it is an impossible problem. And then there are all those other nuclear research facilities that must have knowledge that provides insight as well.

Before i talked about gamma radiation as EM radiation but i forgot to think about neutron radiation. I think the most important part is more research into neutron moderators. Because that will have a large impact on maintenance and the lifetime cycle of an reactor and as such the cost.

I have been following the molten salt versions. I also have been following in the past the most advanced and theoretical version of nuclear facilities : the Rubbiatron. But the Rubbiatron may very well be a century away at current pace. It requires radical new insight.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
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Riiiight. It's just a different design philosophy. And the fact that Westinghouse sells them to other countries, while they are illegal in the US is just a philosophical difference of opinion!

It's up to those countries to setup their own standards. Unless you want to impose US law on other nations. Is that your argument that we should save those other nations from themselves and impose our laws and regulations on them?
 
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May 11, 2008
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I mentioned the fungi in my other post, i do not know that much about it, but it seems our (animal) cells lack cell walls and fungi actually do have cell walls. And most notably a pretty tough cell wall as well, it is made of chitin. The same material insects and shrimps and other lifeforms with an exoskeleton use with exception of squids and octopuses. This might come in handy as well in ionizing environments. It is interesting nonetheless.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
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It's up to those countries to setup their own standards. Unless you want to impose US law on other nations. Is that your argument that we should save those other nations from themselves and impose our laws and regulations on them?


My thought is the fallout from Japan's nuclear reactors is aimed directly at the US and there was talk of selling another cheap reactor to Mexico. We regulate the sale of countless items to foreign countries from nuclear weapons to who knows what, and perhaps cheap nuclear reactors should receive similar consideration. If for no other reason then enlightened self-interest. It's not like I would expect a corporation to actually give a damn about people when profits are at stake.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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My thought is the fallout from Japan's nuclear reactors is aimed directly at the US and there was talk of selling another cheap reactor to Mexico. We regulate the sale of countless items to foreign countries from nuclear weapons to who knows what, and perhaps cheap nuclear reactors should receive similar consideration. If for no other reason then enlightened self-interest. It's not like I would expect a corporation to actually give a damn about people when profits are at stake.

You mean the fallout that is less than what you would get from a full body xray + transcontinental flight? The fallout that is localized entirely around the plant and isn't in the jet stream by some magical methodology?

The false information / faux hysteria surrounding this is insane.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
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You mean the fallout that is less than what you would get from a full body xray + transcontinental flight? The fallout that is localized entirely around the plant and isn't in the jet stream by some magical methodology?

The false information / faux hysteria surrounding this is insane.


That's the fallout thus far. Thankfully the Japanese are about as paranoid about earthquakes as they come and were prepared to flood the damn thing with seawater if all else failed. Others might not be so paranoid and prepared.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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That's the fallout thus far. Thankfully the Japanese are about as paranoid about earthquakes as they come and were prepared to flood the damn thing with seawater if all else failed. Others might not be so paranoid and prepared.

Thats kind of a weird way of thinking about it though, because new reactors are much safer than old ones. So any country acquiring nuclear technology at this stage of the game wont have dinosaur reactors.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Thats kind of a weird way of thinking about it though, because new reactors are much safer than old ones. So any country acquiring nuclear technology at this stage of the game wont have dinosaur reactors.

The dinosaurs went extinct and these reactors aren't cutting edge. Until the technology is proven idiot proof and disaster proof it remains a loaded gun that can potentially kill millions. I'm not asking for perfection, but in case like Japan where they are prone to extreme earthquakes and third world countries I would certainly like to see the US err on the side of caution rather then risk the lives of millions. Anyone familiar with the history of radioactive disasters knows just how important it is to err on the side of caution.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
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The dinosaurs went extinct and these reactors aren't cutting edge. Until the technology is proven idiot proof and disaster proof it remains a loaded gun that can potentially kill millions. I'm not asking for perfection, but in case like Japan where they are prone to extreme earthquakes and third world countries I would certainly like to see the US err on the side of caution rather then risk the lives of millions. Anyone familiar with the history of radioactive disasters knows just how important it is to err on the side of caution.

We always have erred on the side of caution.

That is why less than 1000 people have died in 60 years.

More people die in car accidents PER DAY than each DECADE of nuclear power.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
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We always have erred on the side of caution.

That is why less than 1000 people have died in 60 years.

More people die in car accidents PER DAY than each DECADE of nuclear power.

Extremely good point. Never realized that but it does make sense. As I have said to others for the last two years, before we moved we lived 12 miles from a refinery and 15 miles from a nuclear plant. I was much more scared of the toxins coming from the refinery than the nuclear plant.
 
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