Future generations will struggle to escape the legacy of the disaster in Iraq

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
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Future generations will struggle to escape the legacy of the disaster in Iraq

Our betrayals and broken promises have created a kind of irreversible disease that cannot be forgiven

Robert Fisk
The Independent

10/11/04 "The Independent" -- I am writing a book about our need to escape from history--or rather about our inability to escape the effects of the decisions taken by our fathers and grandfathers. My father was a soldier in the First World War or, as it says on the back of his campaign medal, "The Great War for Civilisation''--which is the title I've chosen for my book. In the space of just 17 months after my father's war ended, the victors had drawn the borders of Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia and most of the Middle East. And I have spent all my professional life watching the people inside those borders burn.

I once sat down with old Malcolm Macdonald, Britain's former colonial secretary, to discuss his handover of the Irish treaty ports to De Valera before the Second World War, thus depriving Britain of three great harbours during the Battle of the Atlantic. It was a step which earned Macdonald the undying contempt of Winston Churchill. Inevitably, though, we ended up talking about his vain attempts to solve the "Palestine problem" in the 1930s. In the Commons, Churchill angrily condemned Macdonald for restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine. I still have my notes of what Macdonald said to me.

"We have a terrific argument in House of Commons, and when we met in the division lobby afterwards, Churchill accused me of being pro-Arab. He said that Arabs were savages and that they ate nothing but camel dung. I could see that it was no good trying to persuade him to change his views. So I suddenly told him that I wished I had a son. He asked me why, and I said I was reading a book called My Early Life by Winston Churchill, and that I would want any son of mine to live that life. At this point, tears appeared in Churchill's eyes and he put his arms round me, saying, 'Malcolm, Malcolm.' The next day a package arrived for me from Churchill containing a signed copy of his latest volume of the life of Marlborough.''

My father worshipped Churchill, and pleaded with a friend to ask Churchill to sign a book for him; which is why I have in my library today Marlborough: His Life and Times, with the words "Inscribed by Winston S Churchill 1948" in the great man's own hand.

I still take the book out from time to time to look at that handwriting and to reflect that this was a man who sent our armies to Gallipoli, who shook hands with Michael Collins, who stood alone against Adolf Hitler, who campaigned for Zionism in Palestine and sent King Faisal to Iraq as a consolation prize for losing Syria to the French.

"The situation that confronted HM Government in Iraq at the beginning of 1921 was a most unsatisfactory one,'' Churchill would write in his The World Crisis: The Aftermath, of the insurgency against British rule. His friend Gertrude Bell--and here I am indebted to HVF Winstone's splendid and revised biography of Britain's "oriental secretary" in Baghdad--was that same year trying to set up an "Arab government with British advisors'' in Baghdad so that Britain's army of occupation could leave Iraq.

"I don't know what hanky panky the Allies are up to about the mandates,'' she wrote, "but I am all on the side of the League of Nations in protesting that they must be made public ... everyone from the Euphrates provinces says the people there won't accept Sunni officials and the (provisional) Council goes on blandly appointing them ... a Shia of Karbala (sic) has at last accepted the Ministry of Education ...''

Bell attended Churchill's famous--or infamous--Cairo conference where the British decided the future of most of the Middle East. TE Lawrence was there, of course, along with just about every Brit who thought he or she understood the region. "I'll tell you about our conference,'' Bell wrote to a friend in her jolly hockey-sticks way. "It has been wonderful. We covered more work in a fortnight than has been got through in a year. Mr Churchill was admirable ...''

It quite takes the breath away; the British thought they could fix the Middle East in 14 days. And so we laid the borders of Iraq and laid out the future for what Churchill would, much later, refer to as the "hell disaster'' of Palestine. I'll always remember the way that Macdonald, talking to me in his Sevenoaks home 26 years ago, turned to me during our conversation. "In Palestine, I failed,'' he said. "And that is why you are in Beirut today.''

And he was right, of course. Had we really "fixed" the Middle East, I wouldn't have spent the last 29 years of my life travelling from one bloody war to another amid the lies and deceit of our leaders and the surrogates they appointed to rule over the Arabs. Had we really "fixed" the Middle East, Ken Bigley would not have been murdered in Iraq last week.

Can we escape? Can we one day say--both the West and the peoples of the Middle East--"Enough! Let us start again!'' I fear we cannot. Our betrayals and our broken promises--to Jews as well as Arabs--have created a kind of irreversible disease, something that will not go away and cannot and will not be forgiven for generations.

Look, for example, how we egged on Saddam to invade Iran in 1980, how we patronised him for eight terrible years with export credits and guns and aircraft and chemicals for gas. Looking back now, we were doing something else. By supporting Saddam's war, we were helping an entire generation of Iraqis to learn to fight--and die.

I called up my old friend Tony Clifton in Australia this week. He and I reported the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war from both sides. "Just think,'' he said. "All these millions of Iraqis were taught about how to fight a big army. They used to use their tanks as static positions with just their gun barrels pointing over the earth to stop the Iranians. But they weren't allowed to use their initiative. But now Saddam has gone and all those lieutenants and captains are older and can use their initiative and their fighting abilities against the Americans. I think that's why the resistance in Iraq is so successful.''

I suspect that Clifton is right, and that the eight-year war with Iran which we were so keen on is intimately connected to the current insurgency and the savagery with which it is being conducted by the Iraqi gunmen and suicide killers.

And what of the Americans themselves? I've been re-reading Seymour Hersh's stunning 1970 account of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. And there's something about the casual attitude to death and cruelty in the way that Medina and Calley did their killings there that I find chillingly familiar.

The Americans have a professional army in Iraq, but it is becoming frighteningly casual about the way it kills women and children in Fallujah, simply denying that its air strikes are killing the innocent, and insists that all 120 dead in their Samarra operation are all insurgents when this cannot possibly be true. What about the latest wedding party carnage, another American "success" against terrorism? Because journalists can scarcely travel in Iraq any more, there is no longer any independent witness to this awful war. What is going on in Ramadi and Hilla and all the other cities where US forces carry out their brutal raids?

Tony Blair still thinks his hideous invasion was not a mistake. He still seems to believe in his own version of The Great War for Civilisation, just as my father once believed in it. And now I wonder what terrors this disaster holds in store for our future generations, who will also ask themselves if they can escape from history.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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*cue scary music*

I wonder if Fisk has gone to see the insurgents in Sadr City turning in their weapons? I wonder when he's gonna comment on the peace in Najaf, the changes in Samarra, or the current attempts at a peace process in Fallujah?

Fisk is obviously very, very knowledgeable about the Mid-East. He arguably knows as much as any American about the based on his decades of experieince there. But he rarely ever acknowledges changes for the good. His constant focus on the bad and his seeming refusal to report the good highlights his apparently natural and unyielding pessimism. That pisses me off about him and makes me believe his views are more politicly motivated than informational in nature.

Show us a little balance Robert. Convince us you're not one of those dark side of the mooners who fully believe it is ALL dark.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
*cue scary music*

I wonder if Fisk has gone to see the insurgents in Sadr City turning in their weapons? I wonder when he's gonna comment on the peace in Najaf, the changes in Samarra, or the current attempts at a peace process in Fallujah?

Fisk is obviously very, very knowledgeable about the Mid-East. He arguably knows as much as any American about the based on his decades of experieince there. But he rarely ever acknowledges changes for the good. His constant focus on the bad and his seeming refusal to report the good highlights his apparently natural and unyielding pessimism. That pisses me off about him and makes me believe his views are more politicly motivated than informational in nature.

Show us a little balance Robert. Convince us you're not one of those dark side of the mooners who fully believe it is ALL dark.

How many times has al-Sadr "surrendered"? 4...5...8?

Heck, I found myself agreeing with Miniter today on the Laura Ingraham show in that we should not trust al-Sadr and certainly shouldn't be engaging in truce/disarming talks with him. al-Sadr's flip-flopped more than Bush!!
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Needless to say I totally disagree. Only the most pessimistic person can say what we're doing in Iraq (and Afghanistan) is making the world worse off. I just don't understand how anyone can think that trying to help establish democratic nations with increased freedom and tolerance is a bad thing. Of course it's hard, and of course there's various low-lifes who don't want to see that happen. It will be a long, difficult process but it's a start.

It's not like we can just sit around and wait 50 or 100 years for these places to pull themselves up. The world is too small and too connected, and what happens there affects us. There's a lot of people over there who are against democracy, free markets, civil rights, pluralism, etc... and their hateful, primitive ideology is creating major security problems for the US and the rest of the world. We can bomb them all into the stone age, or we can try and help them into the Enlightenment. We can go forward or backwards.

I believe what we're doing is a noble endeavor, and history will see it was a major advancement in world peace and prosperity. It looks like some people are focusing on short term political advantage instead of long term human success.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: conjur
How many times has al-Sadr "surrendered"? 4...5...8?
0. It's not a surrender, it's a peace treaty.

Heck, I found myself agreeing with Miniter today on the Laura Ingraham show in that we should not trust al-Sadr and certainly shouldn't be engaging in truce/disarming talks with him. al-Sadr's flip-flopped more than Bush!!
Not quite as often as Kerry though.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: conjur
How many times has al-Sadr "surrendered"? 4...5...8?
0. It's not a surrender, it's a peace treaty.
Quite higher than 0. I can specifically remember two and there have probably been more.

Heck, I found myself agreeing with Miniter today on the Laura Ingraham show in that we should not trust al-Sadr and certainly shouldn't be engaging in truce/disarming talks with him. al-Sadr's flip-flopped more than Bush!!
Not quite as often as Kerry though.
Pffft.

Kerry could live to be 287 and still not pass up Bush's count!
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: conjur
How many times has al-Sadr "surrendered"? 4...5...8?
0. It's not a surrender, it's a peace treaty.
Quite higher than 0. I can specifically remember two and there have probably been more.
Feel free to provide links to back that up. AFAIK, Sadr has never negotiated surrenders, only peace treaties. His stratospheric ego would never permit him to lose face by agreeing to a "surrender."

Heck, I found myself agreeing with Miniter today on the Laura Ingraham show in that we should not trust al-Sadr and certainly shouldn't be engaging in truce/disarming talks with him. al-Sadr's flip-flopped more than Bush!!
Not quite as often as Kerry though.
Pffft.

Kerry could live to be 287 and still not pass up Bush's count! [/quote]
Kerry looks like he's fast approaching 287 already.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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cwjerome:

Doctors are admonished "First, do no harm."

That should be our foreign policy.

And, yes, I think Iraq at least is a disaster and is worse off now. Afgh. might make it to democracy. MIGHT.

-Robert
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
TastesLikeChicken, note the use of quotes ("") around "surrendered"?

Guess that was a bad choice of words.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,905
2
76
hmm... didn't they also say this about Vietnam?
Are we still struggling to escape that?

No really I'm asking because I don't know. Anyone?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,665
6,192
126
cwjerome: I know you want a rational argument but it isn't going to be easy. You seem so way way out there:

c: Needless to say I totally disagree. Only the most pessimistic person can say what we're doing in Iraq (and Afghanistan) is making the world worse off.

M: The say a pessimist is often an optimist with extra information. This man has way way more information than you or me, I think.

c: I just don't understand how anyone can think that trying to help establish democratic nations with increased freedom and tolerance is a bad thing.

M: Here you leave off the method by which it's done. You make two unproven and unargued assumptions, 1 that democracy is good, and 2. that it doesn't matter how it is instituted.

c: Of course it's hard, and of course there's various low-lifes who don't want to see that happen. It will be a long, difficult process but it's a start.

M: Why is it hard, whose fault if anybody's is that? How do you justify the bigoted use of the term low-lifes to tar a group of people? How do you know it's not gonna be easy like the Neocons originally thought? It only recently because hard; maybe it will be easy again tomorrow no?

c: It's not like we can just sit around and wait 50 or 100 years for these places to pull themselves up.

M: Why do you make that assumption. Where is your poof. Where did you get that idea. 60 years for the cold war, no?

c: The world is too small and too connected, and what happens there affects us.

M: Just rhetoric, you offer no proof. Small and connected could mean actually the opposite.

c: There's a lot of people over there who are against democracy, free markets, civil rights, pluralism, etc... and their hateful, primitive ideology is creating major security problems for the US and the rest of the world. We can bomb them all into the stone age, or we can try and help them into the Enlightenment. We can go forward or backward.

M: But our primitive culture is bombing them back to the stone age now. You make the unproven assumption that your culture is better than theirs. No culture on earth is any different. Theirs is infinitely superior to yours in their opinion. Show me how we determine who has the best culture. Remember what Gandhi said when asked about western civilization.



I believe what we're doing is a noble endeavor, and history will see it was a major advancement in world peace and prosperity. It looks like some people are focusing on short term political advantage instead of long term human success.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: chess9
cwjerome:

Doctors are admonished "First, do no harm."

That should be our foreign policy.

And, yes, I think Iraq at least is a disaster and is worse off now. Afgh. might make it to democracy. MIGHT.

-Robert

Ah yes, Do I detect a carterite in the house?

CsG
 

Kerouactivist

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2001
4,665
0
76
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Needless to say I totally disagree. Only the most pessimistic person can say what we're doing in Iraq (and Afghanistan) is making the world worse off. I just don't understand how anyone can think that trying to help establish democratic nations with increased freedom and tolerance is a bad thing. Of course it's hard, and of course there's various low-lifes who don't want to see that happen. It will be a long, difficult process but it's a start.

It's not like we can just sit around and wait 50 or 100 years for these places to pull themselves up. The world is too small and too connected, and what happens there affects us. There's a lot of people over there who are against democracy, free markets, civil rights, pluralism, etc... and their hateful, primitive ideology is creating major security problems for the US and the rest of the world. We can bomb them all into the stone age, or we can try and help them into the Enlightenment. We can go forward or backwards.

I believe what we're doing is a noble endeavor, and history will see it was a major advancement in world peace and prosperity. It looks like some people are focusing on short term political advantage instead of long term human success.

"noble endeavor"...Neo-colonialism would be a better term.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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M: The say a pessimist is often an optimist with extra information. This man has way way more information than you or me, I think
Jerome: I guess me -and millions of others- can't disagree with him, sorry.

M: Here you leave off the method by which it's done. You make two unproven and unargued assumptions, 1 that democracy is good, and 2. that it doesn't matter how it is instituted.
Jerome: This is an informal forum right? I didn't think it necessary to add a full argument for every premise, this isn't a dissertation, and neither are any other posts at this website. If you want to debate whether democracy is better than dictatorship or religious authoritarianism then we can... make a new topic.

How it's instituted... hmm. What do you mean? You may think was wrong to go into Iraq, so explain what would be a proper way to institute democracy- that would actually work. I think we had every justification and we are doing a relatively good job considering the enormous challenges we face. Nothing's pretty or easy about it, and to try and pretend it can be done peacefully and they are going to be just like America is asking the impossible. They are just starting out, and they're on the right track. Given the context, we have been remarkably successful.

M: Why is it hard, whose fault if anybody's is that? How do you justify the bigoted use of the term low-lifes to tar a group of people? How do you know it's not gonna be easy like the Neocons originally thought? It only recently because hard; maybe it will be easy again tomorrow no?
Jerome: Why is it hard? Because they have been under a dictatorship for 30 years. Because their society is struggling and there are a bunch of low-lifes making things even worse. Who's fault is that? Saddam, the low-lifes, the international community including the US... who do you think is at fault? And why are we dwelling on blame when we should be looking for solutions. I also have a hard time remembering many people saying this was going to be a cakewalk.

M: Just rhetoric, you offer no proof. Small and connected could mean actually the opposite.
Jerome: I would argue that the world is getting "smaller" in many ways and has been for literally 100s of years. We are more connected with the world, interdependent, and the good old days of isolationism is way past. When one region's economy stumbles, we feel it. When one region breeds a culture of intolerance and hate we see -and feel- the results. I'm sorry moonbeam, but this is common sense... it seems to me you're just being argumentative. Trying to disect every line is pretty disengenuous considering yesterday you equated me to the Taliban.

M: But our primitive culture is bombing them back to the stone age now. You make the unproven assumption that your culture is better than theirs. No culture on earth is any different. Theirs is infinitely superior to yours in their opinion. Show me how we determine who has the best culture. Remember what Gandhi said when asked about western civilization.
Jerome: I do not believe our culture is primitive, and saying we are bombing them into the stone age is simply ridiculous. I believe all cultures are not created equal, that some ideas, beliefs and principles are better than others, and on the scale of things ours is advanced, not primitive. We are targeting insurgents and terrorists while trying to REBUILD the infrastructure and society as best we and them can. If our plan was to bomb them into the stone age we would have no troops and contractors and we'd be carpet bombing every square mile. What you say is baseless.

I can see why you'd make the comments you have, considering you are a cultural relativist who thinks slavery is no worse than freedom. It is had to argue with someone who cannot make value judgements, because how am I to show any actions or words are good or bad when "good" and "bad" aren't in your vocabulary?
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Do you agree with the assessment by Robert Fisk?

"Our betrayals and broken promises have created a kind of irreversible disease that cannot be forgiven"


I suggest that those that feel our betrayals and broken promises are an issue, at least try to be forgiven by those that we have betrayed.

I would suggest that you go to these people and bow before them with your neck exposed.

Then and only then, you may start to understand what seperates us from them....

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: cwjerome
I can see why you'd make the comments you have, considering you are a cultural relativist who thinks slavery is no worse than freedom. It is had to argue with someone who cannot make value judgements, because how am I to show any actions or words are good or bad when "good" and "bad" aren't in your vocabulary?

Congrats. You've now realized moonie for what he/she is. Ofcourse I'm sure the mirror is around just waiting to be sprung or some feeble attack on either of us. But anyway, glad you've realized who moonie is. :beer:

CsG
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
*cue scary music*

I wonder if Fisk has gone to see the insurgents in Sadr City turning in their weapons? I wonder when he's gonna comment on the peace in Najaf, the changes in Samarra, or the current attempts at a peace process in Fallujah?

Fisk is obviously very, very knowledgeable about the Mid-East. He arguably knows as much as any American about the based on his decades of experieince there. But he rarely ever acknowledges changes for the good. His constant focus on the bad and his seeming refusal to report the good highlights his apparently natural and unyielding pessimism. That pisses me off about him and makes me believe his views are more politicly motivated than informational in nature.

Show us a little balance Robert. Convince us you're not one of those dark side of the mooners who fully believe it is ALL dark.

"But he rarely ever acknowledges changes for the good." What changes would that be? The US has a new strategy but it is far too soon to determine if it is for the better or for the worse. What is going on right now is political posturing from both sides before the January elections. Unless, of course, Seymour Hersh is right and the insurgency has in fact won the war.

The fact that al-Sadr has turned in the weapons only illustrates that he knows that he cannot "win the war" by direct military opposition to the US military. He needs to focus on the war for the ballots. For him fighting an open military conflict is a losing strategy. He hopes he made his point among those opposed to the invasion by showing that he is anti the American occupation. Al Sadr knows that he can always tell his men to rearm themselves whenever he so choses. The real winner in Najaf is al-Sistani who aims for a real political victory in the January elections. The problem for him is that he wants a calm and orderly situation so that so many people as possible can vote (giving the Shi'ite majority he should do well if that is the case). Paradoxically it would be better for al-Sistani if the US had delivered the promised reconstruction and so improved the lot for ordinary Iraqis and calmed the situation down. (Is the US using future reconstruction as a carrot for cooperation?) Now al-Sistani will not wait forever for elections. He has already waited six months longer than the original deadline. If the situation in Iraq does not allow for sufficiently widespread voting al-Sistani can toughen his line and start pushing harder. That would pit the majority of Sunni's (already opposed) and the majority of Shi'ites (also the moderates) against the US for real. Needless to say the US wants politicians in charge that are compliant to US interests.

What changes in Samarra? The US bombed the crap out of it, routed a few hundred "insurgents" but likely killed civilians in the process. The US started the attack by cutting off a bridge, in effect an economic siege. Should the families of those dead be grateful? Fisk has seen first hand how these things work. He is pointing out that patching the political and emotional wounds with contrieved solutions does not work. Historically it does not work. Contrieved political solutions, especially solutions not rooted in the wishes of the populace, and brought in from the outside, have a tendency to backfire (understatement).

Do you truly believe that Allawi is the right man to lead Iraq, and if not him who is? Why should those that lose the election (if they do), especially if it is a crippled election, accept that they lost to a man, or party, supported by US Guns and US Money? Because it is in their best interest (says who?)? What will the US do if al-Sistani wins the election and makes demands on the US?

I don't see how the situation in Iraq can improve drastically. If US compliant politicians win, the insurgency will grow. If anti-US politicians win I think the US will tighten it's military fist, refuse to reconstruct and start to attack the insurgency with increased vehemence (especially if Bush wins the election). But the US cannot win this war by bombing. That didn't work in Vietnam and that won't work now.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
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Originally posted by: GrGr
"But he rarely ever acknowledges changes for the good." What changes would that be? The US has a new strategy but it is far too soon to determine if it is for the better or for the worse. What is going on right now is political posturing from both sides before the January elections. Unless, of course, Seymour Hersh is right and the insurgency has in fact won the war.
I'm seeing more posturing from the left than the right. At least the right tries to recognize the good while also realizing there are still many problems in Iraq. The left constantly harps on the bad - calling Iraq a disaster, a quagmire, a lost cause (as if it's already over), rarely ever acknowledging the fact that there are good things happening there.

It's their common and persistent defeatist attitude and harbinger of gloom outlook that makes one believe they aren't reporting anything; they are agendizing. They don't care about how Iraq is doing, they want you to know their opinion on how badly they think Bush is doing, and look for anything they can find to fatten their little pig of a claim. Fisk himself used to bring up Najaf quite frequently in his writings, even going so far as in one article to wax eloquently about how courteous the wonderful Mahdi Army soldiers were. As if. Never did he mention their brutality, their harrassment of the locals, Sadr's sharia councils where people were instantly judged and then carted off ot the baement to be tortured and/or murdered. And now that Najaf is free of Sadr and life has settled into relative normalcy there, Fisk has suddenly forgetten all about Najaf, as if it no longer even exists.

The fact that al-Sadr has turned in the weapons only illustrates that he knows that he cannot "win the war" by direct military opposition to the US military. He needs to focus on the war for the ballots. For him fighting an open military conflict is a losing strategy.
He's right. It is a losing strategy, nor was he winning any hearts and minds while his thug army was brutalizing and oppressing the local population in Najaf and other areas. Do you really think Sadr was ousted from Najaf because he chose it to be so? He was ousted from Najaf because the local population finally had enough and told him to get the hell out. Enough of their complaints to al-Sistani finally made it happen and al-Sistani smacked fat little Mookie down.

I'm glad he's decided to use the political process. Then we can all finally see how widespread his support really is. Come election time, if Sadr is on the ticket, I'd bet he won't get more than 3% of the vote on a good day.

He hopes he made his point among those opposed to the invasion by showing that he is anti the American occupation.
Except that not the point he made or reinforced. The point he made is that he's a power seeking sob who wants to wield his throny staff of sharia law over overone, like it or not.

Al Sadr knows that he can always tell his men to rearm themselves whenever he so choses.
He can tell them that any time he feels like sending his supporters to death.

The real winner in Najaf is al-Sistani who aims for a real political victory in the January elections. The problem for him is that he wants a calm and orderly situation so that so many people as possible can vote (giving the Shi'ite majority he should do well if that is the case). Paradoxically it would be better for al-Sistani if the US had delivered the promised reconstruction and so improved the lot for ordinary Iraqis and calmed the situation down. (Is the US using future reconstruction as a carrot for cooperation?)
The promised construction is being delivered. It's not being deliverred as fast as people would like, but it is coming along. If it weren't for the bad behavior of a very small percentage of Iraqis it would be a lot further along as well.

Now al-Sistani will not wait forever for elections. He has already waited six months longer than the original deadline. If the situation in Iraq does not allow for sufficiently widespread voting al-Sistani can toughen his line and start pushing harder. That would pit the majority of Sunni's (already opposed) and the majority of Shi'ites (also the moderates) against the US for real. Needless to say the US wants politicians in charge that are compliant to US interests.
Fortunately we don't have much longer to wait for the elections in Iraq.

What changes in Samarra? The US bombed the crap out of it, routed a few hundred "insurgents" but likely killed civilians in the process. The US started the attack by cutting off a bridge, in effect an economic siege. Should the families of those dead be grateful? Fisk has seen first hand how these things work. He is pointing out that patching the political and emotional wounds with contrieved solutions does not work. Historically it does not work. Contrieved political solutions, especially solutions not rooted in the wishes of the populace, and brought in from the outside, have a tendency to backfire (understatement).
Fisk is another member of the "New Left." He's another one of those who, when looking to point the finger of blame (which is a frequent mm in his case - always blaming someone), looks solely at the US and then attempts to create reasons why the US is at fault because, according to his distorted Chomsky-ite way of thinking, it must the US's fault somehow.

Do you truly believe that Allawi is the right man to lead Iraq, and if not him who is? Why should those that lose the election (if they do), especially if it is a crippled election, accept that they lost to a man, or party, supported by US Guns and US Money? Because it is in their best interest (says who?)? What will the US do if al-Sistani wins the election and makes demands on the US?[q/]
If al-Sistani is elected I doubt the US will do anything. If that's who the Iraqis choose, then that's who they will get. However, the polls taken of Iraqis, as well as local and regional voting, indicate they do not want their religious leaders to be their political leaders.

I don't see how the situation in Iraq can improve drastically. If US compliant politicians win, the insurgency will grow. If anti-US politicians win I think the US will tighten it's military fist, refuse to reconstruct and start to attack the insurgency with increased vehemence (especially if Bush wins the election). But the US cannot win this war by bombing. That didn't work in Vietnam and that won't work now.
imo, people who can't see how things can improve drastically in Iraq actually don't want to see it improve. They'd rather have Iraqis suffer than the Bush Doctrine validated. At least, that's the impression they seem to exude, particularly people like Fisk.
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Needless to say I totally disagree. Only the most pessimistic person can say what we're doing in Iraq (and Afghanistan) is making the world worse off. I just don't understand how anyone can think that trying to help establish democratic nations with increased freedom and tolerance is a bad thing. Of course it's hard, and of course there's various low-lifes who don't want to see that happen. It will be a long, difficult process but it's a start.

It's not like we can just sit around and wait 50 or 100 years for these places to pull themselves up. The world is too small and too connected, and what happens there affects us. There's a lot of people over there who are against democracy, free markets, civil rights, pluralism, etc... and their hateful, primitive ideology is creating major security problems for the US and the rest of the world. We can bomb them all into the stone age, or we can try and help them into the Enlightenment. We can go forward or backwards.

I believe what we're doing is a noble endeavor, and history will see it was a major advancement in world peace and prosperity. It looks like some people are focusing on short term political advantage instead of long term human success.

Logic and reasoning will not be tolerated around here, sir; please don't this happen again. The sky is falling and you bloody-well know it! The world is not a safer place and only John Kerry can fix the mess created by this war--a war predicated on the theft of oil (I know, I know, gas is at an all-time high, but that conflicts with our silly little catchphrase--"no war for oil!"). John Kerry served in Vietnam and therefore can jump in his proverbial swift-boat, sail over to Iraq (maybe die Frau will let him use the $700K yacht), and do everything that Bush has done in Iraq--just "better and more quickly." Naturally Iraq is a mess, silly....the Democrats said it is, so it must be true.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,665
6,192
126
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Needless to say I totally disagree. Only the most pessimistic person can say what we're doing in Iraq (and Afghanistan) is making the world worse off. I just don't understand how anyone can think that trying to help establish democratic nations with increased freedom and tolerance is a bad thing. Of course it's hard, and of course there's various low-lifes who don't want to see that happen. It will be a long, difficult process but it's a start.

It's not like we can just sit around and wait 50 or 100 years for these places to pull themselves up. The world is too small and too connected, and what happens there affects us. There's a lot of people over there who are against democracy, free markets, civil rights, pluralism, etc... and their hateful, primitive ideology is creating major security problems for the US and the rest of the world. We can bomb them all into the stone age, or we can try and help them into the Enlightenment. We can go forward or backwards.

I believe what we're doing is a noble endeavor, and history will see it was a major advancement in world peace and prosperity. It looks like some people are focusing on short term political advantage instead of long term human success.

Logic and reasoning will not be tolerated around here, sir; please don't this happen again. The sky is falling and you bloody-well know it! The world is not a safer place and only John Kerry can fix the mess created by this war--a war predicated on the theft of oil (I know, I know, gas is at an all-time high, but that conflicts with our silly little catchphrase--"no war for oil!"). John Kerry served in Vietnam and therefore can jump in his proverbial swift-boat, sail over to Iraq (maybe die Frau will let him use the $700K yacht), and do everything that Bush has done in Iraq--just "better and more quickly." Naturally Iraq is a mess, silly....the Democrats said it is, so it must be true.

Personally I think a person would have to be a simple minded fool to think Kerry can solve this mess that easily, but I admire your optimism.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,665
6,192
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Is it bad form to double bump?

Nope, conjur and gaard do it(bump multiple times to get someone to reply).

Moonie must have tripped over and broken his mirror.

CsG

No I just been in a prolonged state of ecstasy gazing into it at my beloved Cad.
 
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