Future guns, what's after the Rail Gun in terms of projectiles?

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Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
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Originally posted by: BoogieQ
When the rail gun at the link I provided is fired in the video, there is no recoil. The gun doesn't flinch at all.

This was my basis for my conclusion. This is perhaps due, as you said the size of the projectile.

BUT, let me offer this.. since it is a magnetic discharge, your telling me that if there was no projectile in there and the gun was fired it should recoil? I don't think it would..

However, i'm no science major.. it just seems to me that there would be little to no recoil in a railgun design due to how the pulse works.

I'd like to be proven wrong though!

The reason a railgun can "hit" so hard without much recoil is just due to the difference in these two equations (open to correction if I've goofed!): F=MA and E=MV^2

If in the above you increase (M)ass both (F)orce and (E)nergy will increase the same. However if you double (A)ccelation and also double (V)elocity you'll end up with twice the recoil or (F)orce and four times as much kinetic (E)nergy delivered to target.

Also a railgun can't fire without a projectile - the projectile is an integral part of the firing process.

It's possible to create guns without recoil. You can't violate Newton but you can work around it. Early bazookas used a couple techniques to make this happen. Some would basically mount two projectiles inside the barrel with the propellant charge between them. You obviously had to pay attention and not aim the back of it at your buddy. They then switched to a "rocket style" design where they left off aft-firing projectile. The big flaw was most of the propellant would discharge out the back and not actually move the projectile much. The fix was to fit a venturi / rocket nozzle to the end. This would backpressure enough to move the projectile and the exhaust gasses flowing out the venturi nozzle would provide thrust to counteract the recoil. I'm sure they had a few fly off (either forward or back) while they got the nozzle size fine tuned.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: wQuay
This could be a huge breakthrough in gun technology.

As for lasers, would coating the target in a reflective surface render the gun useless?

It would probably diminish the energy on target briefly. You would have to make sure the surface was reflective to the laser as well, not just visible light (unlikely to be used). Once a burn begins on the surface the reflective properties are gone and you're also going to then open yourself up to all other kinds of trouble. Naval aircraft are painted grey to mix in with the haze near the horizon. A "silver" jet is going to get spotted fast. Also it's not normal paint covering military aircraft - it's radar and infrared absorbing, you wouldn't want to go without it.
 

Mingon

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2000
3,012
0
0
It's possible to create guns without recoil

Its possible but dependant on calibre of projectile (and weight/velocity) largely. Muzzle brakes, dampers, recurperators and buffers are all effective to a point.

I nearly got hit by the springs in a tanks dampers when I was taking one apart (long story) the outer set (2x1ft diameter - 25.4mm) were roughly 3ft long and were made of 1" steel they were compressed each by 50%. when we took the end of (thinking they were not under tension) they, and the end, shot 30ft across the workshop destroyed a metal table and damaged some shutters oops
 

Shalmanese

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,157
0
0
More specifically, P = MV while KE = MV^2. What this means is that the energy of the bullet goes up as the square of the velocity while the momentum only goes up linearly. Thus, the faster a bullet is, the higher the energy/mementum ratio is and the less recoil experienced.
 

RayH

Senior member
Jun 30, 2000
963
1
81
I think recoil is better described as the acceleration applied on the launcher in the opposite direction of the projectile when launched. In which case F=ma applies. The amount of force on the projectile during launch is equal to the force pushing back on the launcher. That's why you need lancher's with more mass to manage recoil (acceleration) as you fire either projectiles with larger mass or higher acceleration.
 

Evadman

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Feb 18, 2001
30,990
5
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I built a railgun in college. but instead of working on this principal, it worked like a solinoid. Just wire wrapped around a plastic tube in which a nail was laid. (sans head) I tried using caps, but the discharge was just too fast. The projectile would only move 3/4" or so. We decided to just use rectified 440v AC. (440v DC technicly). IIRC we were only using about 45 amps. Still shot the projectile through a cinder block. The tube was 3m long, and was energized for 1/2 a second. this was enough time to get the projectile out of the tube, but not melt the tube from the heat.
 

BoogieQ

Member
Jun 26, 2003
32
0
0
I just fail to see where the reverse force in a rail gun is.. since a magnetic wave is pushing the projectile out of the barrel. Wouldn't the opposite force be a sideways force on the barrel it'self and not a reverse motion as with conventional munitions?
 

grant2

Golden Member
May 23, 2001
1,165
23
81
if something is getting pushed forward, something else is getting pushed back. It's that simple.

any sideways force would just be the rails pushing against each other
 

BoogieQ

Member
Jun 26, 2003
32
0
0
However, since this is a magnetic pulse, could the back of the barrel be left open and the recoil motion would simply be air being shot out the back end of it?

What is receiving the reverse force in a rail gun? The air in the barrel?

So your saying if you set up a rail gun with a big enough projectile it would shoot itself in the other direction?

I'm not picturing this.. since this is Highly Technical, I hope someone can explain it deeper than "something being pushed is getting pushed back" and "it just does"

Not flaming, just very curious!
 

Mingon

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2000
3,012
0
0
get 2 magnets place north to north or south to south, they repel each other with the same force. If your holding the magnets you should feel it - same principle (I know this is not totally accurate its just putting the basic idea across) Now try the same thing with a solenoid and you get a similar reaction
 

Shalmanese

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,157
0
0
Some weapons do have air shooting out the back such as bazooka's but they present another set of problems altogether. "something being pushed is getting pushed back" is the law of conservation of momentum. m1v1 = m2v2. Its one of the basic axioms upon which the universe seems to be based on.
 

Noriaki

Lifer
Jun 3, 2000
13,640
1
71
Originally posted by: BoogieQ
I'm not picturing this.. since this is Highly Technical, I hope someone can explain it deeper than "something being pushed is getting pushed back" and "it just does"

My mechanics is a bit rusty...but I believe that the object generating the magnetic force (that propels the bullet forward) is the object that recieves the backwards thrust from the bullet, via the same force (magnetic) as the bullet recieves it's forward thrust.

Becuase those magnetcs are fixed to the rails the rails recieve the force, because those rails are fixed to the battleship (for example) the battleship recieves the force.

Now you see F = m1a1 = m2a2 in action.

The mass of the projectivel (m1) is very very tiny compared to the mass of the battleship, the rails and the magnets (m2), so a1 is very very large while a2 is tiny.

Newton's laws of mechanics are easy to say, but they are not so easy to see in effect always.

If you stand up and jump, you move in a direction, and the earth moves away from you, but becuase the earth is so much more massive than you you move with a much higher acceleration than the earth does.

The system with the projectile and railgun is the same as you and the earth, but instead of your legs providing the force, an electromagnet does. But the railgun and projectile still act equally on each other via the magnetic field.
 

BoogieQ

Member
Jun 26, 2003
32
0
0
Thank you for that answer! I understand what your saying now

So how does the rail gun provide the forward pulse? My guess is when you discharge the energy into the magnets it starts at one and and ends up at the other simply by it taking time for the electrons to move to the end of the rails correct? While this happens super fast, it also shoots out the bullet super fast because of it.

I guess I was just getting confused since there is no physical contact within the system.
 

nuhlir

Junior Member
Jun 18, 2003
2
0
0
OK, back to the whole Aerial Balistic Laser (ABL) thing. Yes, the ABL is chemical based, but whoever said it doesn't take much energy to use is dead wrong. It doesn;t take much electrical energy, but it takes a TON of chemical energy. Basically the ABL is a modified chemically pumped laser, similar to common neodymium yag lasers or a CO2 lasers, just much much much larger.

It should be noted that the main issues with laser based weaponry are 1. Power (as in deleivered energy to the target), 2. Penetration time (time it takes the beam to penetrate/damage the target), and 3. Countermeasures.

Issues #1 and #2 are directly proportional to one another as a higher power laser will penetrate a target faster then the same laser at lower power. Therefore it is obvious that for the purpose of weaponry, high power is desirable. The issue with chemical lasers or lasers in general is that they require a tremendous amount of energy to excite the light amplifying medium so that a sufficient number of photons can be generated to actually damage anything. That energy has to come from somewhere, and in chemical lasers its generated by a chemical reaction (as opposed to electricity), that generates heat is used to exite the light amplifying medium, after which enormous amount of light energy can be extracted from the medium. This type of laser is well documented, with HF based chemical lasers being the most powerful (as the reaction of H with F is one of the most, if not the most exothermic reactions known to man).

Bearing the above points in mind, It shoudl ebe noted that in order for a laser based weapon to be effective it must be capable of delivering damaging amounts of energy to the target at range. Therefore, you have to take into account the fact that a collimated beam of light diffuses over distance (shine your laser pointer at a wall 3 feet away and the dot size is maybe .5cm, shine it at a wall 300 feet away and it will be significantly larger). As the spot size gets larger, the amount of transferred energy a specific area of the target goes down, and thus penetration time increases.

One way to ensure that you have enough power delivered to the target is to, you guessed it..... make the laser more powerful. How do you make a laser more powerful by using the same reactants? You guessed it... use more reactants! If you research the ABL, you'll see that it is only capable of firing a few times before its chemical stores need to be replenished. Also, you'll note that the laser is only capable of penetrating a missile hull in a few seconds. Now a few seconds may seem short, but when you consider the average modern missile flies well over 600 miles an hour, you need one hell of a tracking system to be able to maintain a beam spot (which in the ABL is only a few cm mind you) on the exact same portion of the target for 2-3 seconds at least (more if the hull is thicker). Thats why the ABL is still being researched and is in fact not being widely used.

The other issue is countermeasures. Someone earlier asked if coating a target with a reflective surface would render laser weapons ineffective. The answer is yes.... to some degree. As I'm sure you are all well aware a laser beam is simply massive amounts of photons that are emitted in the same direction at the same wavelength. Thus, should some commie spy discover the wavelength our laser weapon fired at, conceiveably they could coat a target they wished to protect with a substance specifically designed to reflect light at that wavelength. However, unless the reflective surface was 100% reflective at that wavelength (unlikely as dust, fingerprints, etc. on the surface of the reflector will result in some absorbtion), if given sufficent power/time the laser would eventually penetrate the coating, especially in the case of high power chemical lasers, which are generally high power IR lasers that impart a large amount of thermal energy to the target and thus over time would likely destroy the reflective coating unless the coating was particularly heat resistant.

That said, I think the most effective future weapon would be space deployed GPS guided napalm canisters. Nothing would deter me more from crime/terrorism then the possibility that a flaming ball of death could be hurled at me from anywhere on the globe as punishment.
 

grant2

Golden Member
May 23, 2001
1,165
23
81
Originally posted by: BoogieQ

I guess I was just getting confused since there is no physical contact within the system.

Think of it this way: while the moon orbits the earth, is there physical contact? No, but still, we can see the very real effects of the reactive forces, as the moon is pulled towards earth, and the oceans are pulled towards the moon.

All forces traverse a space. In fact, even when you pick up a rock, it "floats" on your hand, because the electrons in the rock's atoms are strongly repulsed by the electrons in your hand, and vice versa. But the atoms never actually "touch" (as happens in a nuclear reaction)
 

Shalmanese

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,157
0
0
Reflective missiles, rotating missiles, dummy missiles, decoys, attacking on a cloudy day. There are so many cheap counter-measures to ABL's that I am convinced it will remain a pipe dream.
 

Zoomer

Senior member
Dec 1, 1999
257
0
76
Don't forget the good old smoke generators. Lasers would just get absorbed by the smoke!
 

nuhlir

Junior Member
Jun 18, 2003
2
0
0
Regarding the smoke countermeasure to lasers. While it is likely some absorbtion would occur, the largest effect from smoke would not come from it "absorbing" the laser. Rather, the smoke would most likely cause large amounts of diffuse light scattering (like fog does to automobile headlights), particularly if the smoke has a particle size ~1/4 the wavelength of the incoming laser radiation. This of course is only really useful if the wavelength of the laser is known, otherwise the laser will penetrate the fog if the particle size of the fog is too large or too small. this is evidenced by the yellow fog lights used on cars. Water vapor in the air condenses for form tiny droplets that hover in the air, forming fog. White light from standard car headlights emits some light (I believe it is blue light but I could be mistaken) that has a wavelenght that is reasonably close to the particle size of the fog water droplets. The droplets scatter light similar to the manner in which light is scattered when it enters the earths atmosphere (the answer to the why is the sky blue question) thus the light from ypour headlights does not penetrate the fog and you can't see very far ahead of your car. However, yellow fog lights are specifically designed to emit yellow (duh) light, which has a much longer wavelength than that of the aformentioned blue light. As a result, the light can penetrate the fog to a much greater degree, thereby allowing you to see what your standard headlights could not.
 

Extrarius

Senior member
Jul 8, 2001
259
0
0
Evadman: a railgun is so named because of the rails in the gun =-) What you describe would be
better termed a coilgun
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: BoogieQ
Thank you for that answer! I understand what your saying now

So how does the rail gun provide the forward pulse? My guess is when you discharge the energy into the magnets it starts at one and and ends up at the other simply by it taking time for the electrons to move to the end of the rails correct? While this happens super fast, it also shoots out the bullet super fast because of it.

I guess I was just getting confused since there is no physical contact within the system.

The electrons don't move as fast as you may think; it is the field that moves quickly. (i.e. when you turn the light switch on, electrons don't travel from the switch to the light, as many people believe)
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,989
10
81
Originally posted by: Extrarius
Evadman: a railgun is so named because of the rails in the gun =-) What you describe would be
better termed a coilgun
Wouldn't it be a linear motor? Or even a glorified speaker voice coil?
 
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