Future of retirement in America

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,625
50,834
136
Like it or not everyone is going to retire either by choice (saving early) or forcibly (usually health reasons). Most employers are not going to keep you on their payrolls when you are in your 70's. People who think they're going to work until they die are fooling themselves. Employers now are shifting more into the "gig economy" where they don't have to pay you benefits such as insurance or retirement matching.

State pension funds, regardless of the political parties that run them, are funded differently. Illinois is famously underfunded while places like South Dakota and North Carolina seem to have their acts together. States act like people, some put money away for the future, some don't. That $10 Starbuck's latte is just like the $10 million dollar pork project to get some votes. That money could have been saved for later and grown with compounding interest.

It is true that the ‘work until you die’ plan is not going to be feasible for lots of people and that a number of state pension funds have been horribly mismanaged. These are definitely real problems that need a solution badly.

They can raise the FICA tax and will probably need to and raise the retirement age. The problem I'm worried about is that the majority of the jobs that are being created in this country are minimum wage jobs. Those kind of jobs are not going to fund Social Security that much. You raise the minimum wage to a "living wage" and the cost of those service affected by this will go up. That $7 Big Mac will go up to $10. Either that or they'll just get a robot to do the job.

Raising FICA taxes is probably a good idea, yes. Raising the retirement age is a very bad idea though. Life expectancy has only been increasing in America among the wealthier strata of society, Ie: the people who need social security the least. Raising the retirement age essentially means cutting benefits for poor people because rich people are living longer.

Also, the majority of new jobs created are jobs just like before, not minimum wage jobs. This is reflected in the fact that real weekly earnings has continued to go up, not down. The pace isn’t great, but it’s still going in the right direction.

And the living wage debate. Where is that money going to come from? Bottom line to everything is money. Corporate taxes to fund it? So when the corporations start to relocate to other countries to avoid those taxes then what? Frankly how long will America be an attractive place to do business in when the pressures of retirement, repaying student loans, and lower wages reduce the purchasing power of consumers?

There are plenty of kinds of taxes and the vast majority of businesses can’t relocate. People often dramatically underestimate the percentage of businesses that are local. Your local McDonalds can’t relocate to Ireland, neither can the real estate brokers, the nurses, the teachers, etc.

As for where the living wage comes from it’s not like tons of other countries don’t have dramatically higher minimum wages than we do. Have they collapsed?

The government carrying such a huge amount of debt causes a lot of people to fear an oncoming bout of inflation but if prices get too high who is going to have the money to buy the stuff? There isn't enough of the "1%" to carry the economy. The government wants/needs to inflate its way out of it's debt but I'm having a hard time seeing a way to get past that point without a fair amount of pain/turmoil on the general public.

The government doesn’t need to inflate its way out of debt, our debt burden has been higher in the past without issue and other countries currently carry much higher debt burdens without problems.

It’s not a good thing to have long term and the fact that Republicans decided to increase the deficit when the economy is functioning well is beyond insane. We will survive though.
 

obidamnkenobi

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2010
1,407
423
136
Oh my gosh. Are you serious?

The DNC lied constantly, even faking poll numbers against Bernie to show Hillary was winning when Bernie clearly had the most support in certain areas.

Even if this was true; so what? The democratic party is a private institution, they can do whatever they feel is best. If Bernie don't like it then he can start his own. (in fact he's not even a democrat most of the time!).

And any thought that Bernie could have won the general is ludicrous! He might be the only one who would have lost worse than hillary. A socialist who wanted to raise taxes to 90% to pay for college for "the librul snowflakes", free health care and more benefits for lazy minorities? hah, that's how that would have played in the midwest! Trump won because he promised to screw over minorties to benefit white, christian men. Very little in Bernie's platform applied to that. (I guess his idiotic trade protectionism could qualify though)
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,625
50,834
136
Oh my gosh. Are you serious?

The DNC lied constantly, even faking poll numbers against Bernie to show Hillary was winning when Bernie clearly had the most support in certain areas.

You just need to google to find loads of information. I'm not going to do all the work for you. The young turks covered it throughout the entire nomination process, you can just search their videos in 2015 and 2016 and find tons of videos along with links to back up their findings. They weren't making it up.

But here is one very telling post, I think.

http://observer.com/2017/05/ro-khanna-admits-democratic-primares-rigged-for-hillary-clinton/


Democrats did everything they could to suppress Sanders’ candidacy, including Wasserman Schultz changing a rule to help the Clinton campaign’s fundraising; Democratic Party officials perpetuating false, divisive narratives; the DNC whitewashing Sanders’ campaign; liberal media spreading fake stories that Sanders supporters threw chairs at the Nevada Democratic Party Convention; and then-DNC Vice Chair Donna Brazile giving Clinton debate questions ahead of time. T​

They even purged Bernie backers from the DNC.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CfFMmBSPT2A#

The amount of attacks he faced from the establishment media during the entire nomination process. Namely from CNN and ABC because of the huge sums of money they gave Hillary. Proof posted on reddit when poll numbers shown on these news outlets didn't line up with polls done in the areas by the cited sources.

You really need to educate yourself on the difference between the corporate democrats and the justice democrats because you seem to live in a fantasy world where all democrats are good people, and not out serving corporate interests just like Republicans do.

This is a lot of nonsense. First, Hillary was always winning, from wire to wire. After Super Tuesday Sanders had no chance, her delegate lead was simply insurmountable. Both public and private polls showed her consistently beating Sanders, and they turned out to be correct.

I know you like Bernie and that's great, but he lost badly and it was never close.
 
Reactions: darkswordsman17

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,483
8,344
126
I have to laugh at people who think SS is retirement.

I think some people confuse "retirement" with "still able to pay my property taxes and won't freeze or starve to death".
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
I think some people confuse "retirement" with "still able to pay my property taxes and won't freeze or starve to death".

The rub there is that most of those people get very little SS benefit as they worked low paying service jobs most of their adult life. I think the younger generations who have seen grandma and grandpa in their old age think that SS is something you can live on but fail to understand that grandma and grandpa are part of the last generation that also had decent pensions and still have pensionable health care benefits.

My generation ( or at least those not working for state or federal gov't) have to ensure we save into a retirement vehicle (namely 401k) and hope that health care somehow gets fixed or implodes by time we retire in 10-15 years.

Irony is as much as I see the logic in a 401k for portability, I also see why corporations loved the advent of the 401k (They helped lobby for them of course. It got them out of the pension business. Genie is out of the bottle, so I'm not sure what the fix is.
 
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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,538
759
146
It’s not a good thing to have long term and the fact that Republicans decided to increase the deficit when the economy is functioning well is beyond insane. We will survive though.

No matter how many times you repeat it, it's still dumb.

(June 7, 2018) "I think the U.S. really is more or less at full employment. But do I think the Fed is right to be raising rates, and that we should start being worried about fiscal deficits? Actually, no, for two reasons. First, I might be wrong. And the costs of tightening when the economy still has room to grow are much bigger than those of waiting and discovering that we’ve overshot a bit. Second, everything we’ve learned since a 2% inflation target became orthodoxy suggests that the target was too low. The effective lower bound on interest rates is a much bigger threat than we realized, and the problem of downward wage rigidity is a bigger deal too. So if inflation crept up from 2 to 3 or even 4, that would actually be a good thing." -- Krugman
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,625
50,834
136
No matter how many times you repeat it, it's still dumb.

(June 7, 2018) "I think the U.S. really is more or less at full employment. But do I think the Fed is right to be raising rates, and that we should start being worried about fiscal deficits? Actually, no, for two reasons. First, I might be wrong. And the costs of tightening when the economy still has room to grow are much bigger than those of waiting and discovering that we’ve overshot a bit. Second, everything we’ve learned since a 2% inflation target became orthodoxy suggests that the target was too low. The effective lower bound on interest rates is a much bigger threat than we realized, and the problem of downward wage rigidity is a bigger deal too. So if inflation crept up from 2 to 3 or even 4, that would actually be a good thing." -- Krugman

Okay.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,001
8,033
136
It'd be fairly easy, by comparison, to replace all forms of retirement with Basic Income. A lot easier than figuring out how to pay for a system that requires growth to balance its books.
 
Reactions: cytg111
Mar 11, 2004
23,279
5,718
146
The rub there is that most of those people get very little SS benefit as they worked low paying service jobs most of their adult life. I think the younger generations who have seen grandma and grandpa in their old age think that SS is something you can live on but fail to understand that grandma and grandpa are part of the last generation that also had decent pensions and still have pensionable health care benefits.

My generation ( or at least those not working for state or federal gov't) have to ensure we save into a retirement vehicle (namely 401k) and hope that health care somehow gets fixed or implodes by time we retire in 10-15 years.

Irony is as much as I see the logic in a 401k for portability, I also see why corporations loved the advent of the 401k (They helped lobby for them of course. It got them out of the pension business. Genie is out of the bottle, so I'm not sure what the fix is.

I don't think people are under that impression at all. In fact that's explicitly why many younger people are changing how they live their lives. They're trying to eschew stuff like big houses, they're trying to figure out how to get the benefits of college without the ever rising cost, among many other things. Unfortunately things are rigged so that they still have to play by those rules. Which is why they're going "I'm not gonna be able to retire and go do fun shit, so I'm just gonna go do the fun shit now" and then they just get condemnation from old people because the old people aren't looking to the future themselves and seeing exactly the situation that younger people are going to end up in. And many of them don't give a fuck because they'll be dead, while people are left to deal with the bullshit that they put into place.

Go do the fun shit, and if shit hits the fan, just fucking off yourself and save yourself from old age. This way you lived a good life and can just not give a fuck about late life stuff. Not even joking that's where things are headed. There's a lot of poor bastards that aren't even getting that luxury, they're working themselves into early graves.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Well I am obviously not going to convince you since you live in a fantasy world where all democrats are heroes and Republicans the villains. That wasn't an opinion piece. It was a dnc representative admitting to things we already knew about.

I imagine we agree and most things except that you fail to see fault, seemingly at all, with the democrats.

And what, you think Hillary isn't crooked? Of course she is. The Clinton's have accepted 3 billion in corporate money. Do you live in a world where that money didn't buy them anything? Of course it has.

The corporate donors don't just hand out money without expecting something in return. Hillary is the second most hated politician in the US and she was just the lesser of two evils. And lost to the most hated in the country. Mainly because many people simply couldn't and wouldn't vote for Hillary. Whether that was a Jill Stein vote or not voting at all.

And the double down on innuendo. Or is that the triple down?

Your concern trolling is obvious.
 

Phenzyn

Member
Mar 18, 2018
137
72
61
Even if this was true; so what? The democratic party is a private institution, they can do whatever they feel is best. If Bernie don't like it then he can start his own. (in fact he's not even a democrat most of the time!).

And any thought that Bernie could have won the general is ludicrous! He might be the only one who would have lost worse than hillary. A socialist who wanted to raise taxes to 90% to pay for college for "the librul snowflakes", free health care and more benefits for lazy minorities? hah, that's how that would have played in the midwest! Trump won because he promised to screw over minorties to benefit white, christian men. Very little in Bernie's platform applied to that. (I guess his idiotic trade protectionism could qualify though)
When did I say Bernie would have won? Or anything even close to that? I even said in my first post about this subject that I felt the DNC did it because they thought it was best. It doesn't change the facts that Bernie wasn't given a fair shake in the primaries. Those are facts.

And you're not a democrat, so of course you want them to fail. But true liberals and democrats alike should at least know the facts on the DNC and their practices. If they are right to do it, because they are a private institution, then why are they trying to hide everything? Because a lot of voters wouldn't stand for rigging the primaries for one person based on money. Especially the democrats that are supposed to be fighting such corruption.

And John here, and probably others, who claim to be liberals but are OK with the Democratic party being as corrupt as the republicans. That's my argument. You can't go around blind to the DNC's short comings, or their lies, and then expect the right not to do the same thing. How do people not see the hypocrisy there?

Democrats will continue to say they want certain things, but if they continue voting for corporate democrats, they aren't going to see those changes. Hillary was corrupt, and thus she didn't get the vote from a lot of the true liberals. Also, lost worse then Hillary? Hillary won the popular vote, so that sentence doesn't make sense. Along with half your post. 90% has got to be a joke, that is one of the dumbest thing's I've ever read on here. Maybe you were going for stupid to try and make your point stronger. It doesn't. It just makes you look like a fool.

And the double down on innuendo. Or is that the triple down?

Your concern trolling is obvious.

Why are you still responding to me then? You won't do your own research on actual facts, so when you accuse the trumpers of doing the exact same thing - I'm going to call you out on it.

Again, you are absolutely the problem with the democratic party. You represent the problems to a "T". You think they are beyond fault, instead of looking at facts. This is the same thing the right does. They simply don't care about all the faults with the right, or the facts, with Trump spewing lies every time he opens his mouth, as long as they can agree with them on one or two things that they think are important. They're selfish people who couldn't possibly care less about other people or how things might effect other people. And yet you accuse me of being like them when I call out Hillary because of who she is? I am not the hypocrite here buddy, you are.

BTW I had 2 minutes, that is what it took. To reflect upon a couple of bullet points from the "opinion piece" as you called it, which probably proves you didn't even read it.

Wasserman Schultz changing a rule to help the Clinton campaign’s fundraising​
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...53e80cd29ad_story.html?utm_term=.fab2d0198ee4

This is written by Donna Brazile herself, the Vice chair of the DNC at the time - she also has lots of revealing facts in her book about how corrupt Hillary Clinton was
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774

Donna Brazile Says She Has “Proof” Clinton Rigged the Primary Against Sanders
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/donna-brazile-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders


Elizabeth Warren and Donna Brazile both now agree the 2016 Democratic primary was rigged
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...y-with-bernie-sanders/?utm_term=.1fe512c14753

“The agreement — signed by Amy Dacey, the former CEO of the DNC, and [Clinton campaign manager] Robby Mook with a copy to [Clinton campaign counsel] Marc Elias— specified that in exchange for raising money and investing in the DNC, Hillary would control the party’s finances, strategy, and all the money raised,” Brazile wrote in the story under the headline “Inside Hillary Clinton’s Secret Takeover of the DNC.”​
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16599036/donna-brazile-hillary-clinton-sanders

Donna Brazile finally admits she shared debate questions with Clinton campaign
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...shared-debate-questions-with-clinton-campaign

I have a feeling you'll probably respond with something like "Donna Brazile is a liar and she just wants to sell books" or some nonsense, just like a Trump supporter would. In which case I'll just move on. But if you are actually interested, then I suggest reading her book or at the very least checking the TYT network. Almost everything I have posted here was already known, WAY before all of these articles were posted. TYT did videos on them en masse, well before all of this was in the Main stream press. So basically, those of us following this - we all knew the facts before Donna Brazile's book, its just that it gained national traction with her book.

Or
How about just read this then?​
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Committee_email_leak

Maybe my saying "It was impossible" is a bit of a stretch, but are you going to seriously argue that anyone else, not just Bernie, had ANY SHOT at all during the 2016 primaries against Hillary Clinton?
 

Phenzyn

Member
Mar 18, 2018
137
72
61
Remember me? Your favorite "Trump humper" i think was the word you used to falsely accuse me in another thread I was also a Bernie Bro and still am to some extent. But i agree with you on this issue. Any Dems who fail to see how the DNC acted are just blinded by their favorite sports team. The exact same way they blame Trumpers to be blinded. The facts are there, they just dont want to admit their team played unfairly against their own teammates.

One of the quotes in my sig puts it all into perspective about partisanship.
No I don't remember, but you should have responded and called me out. If you don't reply to me, how am I going to know?

Sorry but I am definitely not used to a forum environment like this. I actually thought when I first got here that people with out avatars all seemed to be Trump supporters and might have assumed on more then one occasion.

Its really confusing as you're reading through here, if you don't have an avatar, to remember who is who. I am a visual learner, I don't remember names.

Honestly everyone should have an avatar of some kind just to differentiate themselves a bit more, otherwise the forum, the way its designed - at least for me, I confuse people with other people regularly

I apologize for that though
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,201
28,896
136
All that's needed is a modest increase in the FICA, yet there is resistance from "bothsides" to this, one one hand because it taxes poor victim workers, and on the other because it is a tax, period. But it's the most equitable way to fix the problem, and the last time I had at the math, it would have taken less than a 1‰ increase to make ends meet for another half century or so. Since it's employer matched, a little goes twice as far.
Restoring the FICA taxbase is a better approach. As income concentration has increased, the percentage of the national income subject to FICA taxes has dropped. Remove the income cap on wages subject to FICA and apply the tax to capital gains and the social security funding "crisis" vanishes forever.
 
Reactions: esquared

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Same tired innuendo, huh? Of Course. I asked for overt acts against Bernie & you have yet to provide any.

The whole thing about Donna Brazile revealing questions to Clinton shows just what a hack you are. She revealed that there would be a question about the death penalty, as if any presidential candidate wouldn't have answers in advance. She revealed that there would be a question about Flint water at a townhall in Flint, as if Hillary might not have been ready for it. The proposition is absurd.

Oh, and that wicked Hillary kept the DNC afloat & put them on a budget, too. Damn her! Doing that benefited Bernie as well as herself. If Brazile didn't know about that it doesn't mean it hurt Bernie. He had the opportunity to do the same wrt funding yet declined.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,580
2,150
146
Restoring the FICA taxbase is a better approach. As income concentration has increased, the percentage of the national income subject to FICA taxes has dropped. Remove the income cap on wages subject to FICA and apply the tax to capital gains and the social security funding "crisis" vanishes forever.
What you describe is simply another wealth transfer with a nice sounding name, since those above the cap don't see any increased benefit for their dollar. I know "wealth transfer" doesn't ring any alarm bells for you, but it does for a great number of those who pay attention. A straight rate increase is at least honest, and paid equally by the future recipient and by the ones you'd like to tax more, and is, in fact, a wealth transfer, just a more modest one.

I think I could support lifting the cap on Medicare only, though.

Edit: Also, I think the retirement age should be indexed according to a formula that takes number of years the average person is expected to survive after retirement into account.
 
Last edited:

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
What you describe is simply another wealth transfer with a nice sounding name, since those above the cap don't see any increased benefit for their dollar. I know "wealth transfer" doesn't ring any alarm bells for you, but it does for a great number of those who pay attention. A straight rate increase is at least honest, and paid equally by the future recipient and by the ones you'd like to tax more, and is, in fact, a wealth transfer, just a more modest one.

I think I could support lifting the cap on Medicare only, though.

Wealth transfer? Trickle down economics have been moving wealth & income to the tippy-top since 1980. The lower 75% of families have lost an enormous share of national income to the financial elite. Enormous. That reduces their ability to invest & accumulate wealth for retirement. If you have some notional idea of how to change that back other than via redistribution, lay it out, because otherwise it simply won't happen.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,580
2,150
146
Wealth transfer? Trickle down economics have been moving wealth & income to the tippy-top since 1980. The lower 75% of families have lost an enormous share of national income to the financial elite. Enormous. That reduces their ability to invest & accumulate wealth for retirement. If you have some notional idea of how to change that back other than via redistribution, lay it out, because otherwise it simply won't happen.
We have lots of redistribution already, and there will be even more of it in the future. As I said, even a straight FICA rate increase hits employers for half. That's more redistribution.
 

IJTSSG

Golden Member
Aug 12, 2014
1,122
278
136
What you describe is simply another wealth transfer with a nice sounding name, since those above the cap don't see any increased benefit for their dollar. I know "wealth transfer" doesn't ring any alarm bells for you, but it does for a great number of those who pay attention. A straight rate increase is at least honest, and paid equally by the future recipient and by the ones you'd like to tax more, and is, in fact, a wealth transfer, just a more modest one.

I think I could support lifting the cap on Medicare only, though.

Edit: Also, I think the retirement age should be indexed according to a formula that takes number of years the average person is expected to survive after retirement into account.
There's no cap on medicare tax. There's also a .9% bump if your income is over certain thresholds.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
We have lots of redistribution already, and there will be even more of it in the future. As I said, even a straight FICA rate increase hits employers for half. That's more redistribution.

It doesn't redistribute the load nearly well enough to compensate for the beating middle incomes have taken since 1980.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,991
13,517
136
It doesnt matter anyway. Alex Jones has revealed that the democrats will incite civil war on 4th of July.. Trump raping you your country your children your childrens children is the least of your problems.. Civil war is at your doorstep!.. Space Demons Invade!!!!
 
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