Futuremark has released a new patch and...

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jasonja

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2001
1,864
0
0
I don't understand people who say "3DMark is not important, look at the FPS in games". As others have stated, do you think nVidia is only optimizing for 3DMark? Their Quake3 numbers went thru the roof with the new drivers.. but other games remained the same. It's quite obvious that they will optimize/lie/cheat/etc for any gains in the public benchmarking realm. Everyone here bases their decision to buy a new video card based on benchmarks, it's clear that in desperation nVidia tossed ethics aside for framerate in order to regain the crown.
 

AmdInside

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2002
1,355
0
76
Originally posted by: jasonja
I don't understand people who say "3DMark is not important, look at the FPS in games". As others have stated, do you think nVidia is only optimizing for 3DMark? Their Quake3 numbers went thru the roof with the new drivers.. but other games remained the same. It's quite obvious that they will optimize/lie/cheat/etc for any gains in the public benchmarking realm. Everyone here bases their decision to buy a new video card based on benchmarks, it's clear that in desperation nVidia tossed ethics aside for framerate in order to regain the crown.

That's why I also look at screenshots. Also want to know that the video card is stable in my system.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
I agree it's not good that nVidia made their drivers fool 3DMark... however, I still think it's a good idea for video card manufacturers to move towards game specific drivers. Especially since GPU's are becoming more CPU like all the time, I think it would be very beneficial for video card manufacturers to build more "programability" into their video cards. So either they, or the game manufacturer can optimize the drivers to work better with a specific game.
 

WetWilly

Golden Member
Oct 13, 1999
1,126
0
0
That Hot Hardware update is interesting, particularly with the 9800 Pro getting a speed increase at 4xAA with the "no current tricks allowed" patch. How do the nVidia fanboys explain that one?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Why does any of this surprise you ATI fans? Nvidia back in the fall said they pulled out of 3dMark03 for various reasons. One of them was they didnt use very optimized coding for the shaders. And I remember another saying it was way too driver specific and easy to manipulate. So the first NV30 benchmarks come out and the it doesnt look too hot. They release another driver set and it gets a huge boost in performance. Now we have another driver set that is according to the 1 weeks worth of testing in futuremarks eyes are cheating(isnt it kind of funny it took them about 10 days to come up with a full report?). So Nvidia in an evil way has kind of proven point #2. And what is happening? Most people are not siding again Nvidia as much as they are throwing out Futuremarks 3dmark03 as a valid benchmark.

And dont dismiss the ATI caption in small print at the end of the game. Sounds like something else is a miss there.

These cheats could be used in game-benchmarks as well. And fact is, NV cheated. Can you trust them from now on? They explisitly said that they thing 3DMark is worthless and they will not waste their time optimizing their drivers for it. Looks like they flat-out lied


I dont know can you ATI fanatics trust ATI after the whole Quake incident? That was an actual game that was proven to be cheated on. Or are you quick to dimiss a real work game being degraded like that?

 

WetWilly

Golden Member
Oct 13, 1999
1,126
0
0
Not that I'm a fan of either ATI or nVidia, but ...

Why does any of this surprise you ATI fans? Nvidia back in the fall said they pulled out of 3dMark03 for various reasons. One of them was they didnt use very optimized coding for the shaders

It doesn't surprise me at all. When nVidia knew 3DMark03 wasn't going to be friendly to their hardware they started bashing it. Besides if the FX series is so hot and "full featured" with stuff like "CineFX" then why the heck can't they just write a non-cheating driver to outperform ATI on it? What's more telling is the formerly nVidia-exclusive Dawn demo, which is apparently running faster on a 9800 Pro than the 5900 Ultra even with the overhead of a wrapper.

In short, nVidia is getting their butt kicked; it's been way too long since that last happened and they don't know how to deal with it. I like to think of the GeForce FX as the 3dfx's revenge on nVidia.

I dont know can you ATI fanatics trust ATI after the whole Quake incident? That was an actual game that was proven to be cheated on

Then you should also remember that ATI provided a fix that restored IQ and didn't affect performance. That being the case, nVidia shouldn't have any problem writing a driver to restore a 25% drop in 3DMark03 then, should they?
 

Ady88

Junior Member
May 20, 2003
5
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know can you ATI fanatics trust ATI after the whole Quake incident? That was an actual game that was proven to be cheated on. Or are you quick to dimiss a real work game being degraded like that?

yeah pretty quick to dismiss. That was two years ago. You're attempting to dismiss something that's only hours old. Besides, I thought this thread was about cheating in 3dmark. Why do nvidia fans always pull ATI into it saying how they are worse in some way, some kinda of excuse to make nvidia not seem as bad as they are? We're critizing hardware companies that cheat to decieve us. Don't you think that's a fair thing to do?

 

epicstruggle

Junior Member
Nov 18, 2002
17
0
0
Im curious why Anand's (the site) hasnt commented on this. I dont think (not 100% sure) I saw either the original story or now this update. Maybe as a whole in the computer industry this is a very small story. Anyways, go over to beyond3d's forum for more info. Some interesting things like the developers/admins of Futuremark are discussing the issue.

later,
 

Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,953
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know can you ATI fanatics trust ATI after the whole Quake incident? That was an actual game that was proven to be cheated on. Or are you quick to dimiss a real work game being degraded like that?
As wetwilly said, ATi subsequently provided a driver that both restored proper MIP-maps to the (only!) five affected textures and maintained performance with the previous "cheating" one. Let's see nVidia do the same with 3DM03. I'm interested to see if they can actually gain 50% performance by merely (legitimately) improving their drivers.

BTW, here's what HotHardware label as nVidia's response to their 3DM03 cheats:

"Since NVIDIA is not part in the FutureMark beta program (a program which costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars to participate in) we do not get a chance to work with Futuremark on writing the shaders like we would with a real applications developer. We don't know what they did, but it looks like they have intentionally tried to create a scenario that makes our products look bad. This is obvious since our relative performance on games like Unreal Tournament 2003 and Doom 3 shows that the GeForce FX 5900 Ultra is by far the fastest graphics on the market today."

Wow, I guess they just can't help themselves, can they? Firstly, I believe being a 3DM Beta Member costs $30-50K (possibly per year, but I don't see why you'd need to be a Beta member more than a year before or at all after the app's release). Secondly, they obviously didn't read FM's PDF, where they stated they deliberately did not induce changes that would negatively affect performance (you can see ATi maintained performance in most tests, and dropped only 2% overall, while nVidia lost points in every single test, 5-56%). Finally, the 5900U is not on the market today--neither is Doom 3.

nVidia seems to think highly of their customers' intelligence.
 

NicColt

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2000
4,362
0
71
>What is important is the fact that NV uses dishonest methods in benchmarks

and just look back at the timeline they did this in.

It was released at the same time the 9800 Pro 256
It was released during or near E3
It was released just in time to bench it with an updated DOOM III at ID software and before this "bug" was known.
What better site to post bogus numbers than at HardO*P when you know you have them in your back pocket.
Why didn't they choose extremet*ch.com to do the benches is that just a few days earlier they had just put up a 27 page driver review and they knew damm well they would find the cheat.

Even if the numbers are bogus just think of the impact this did. For the duration of E3 it stole the spotlight from the 9800 Pro. They manipulated Id Software at the very best time to do so and use the latest DOOM III to show that the 5900 Ultra smoked the 9800 Pro. Do you think that Id software would allow another test with he 330 patch installed, I don't think so.

This is no bug this was a very well planned attack on ATI and using any method to do so even if it meant cheating. I have to admit this was very well done.
 

Rogozhin

Senior member
Mar 25, 2003
483
0
0
Cheating is bad.

I know IQ degredation was there with the 8500 in Q3 but the bug was in all previous versions of the drivers and they rectified it while keeping performance.

As futuremark has shown nvidia's LOST about 30% of it's perormance in 3dmark.

rogo
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
yeah pretty quick to dismiss. That was two years ago. You're attempting to dismiss something that's only hours old. Besides, I thought this thread was about cheating in 3dmark. Why do nvidia fans always pull ATI into it saying how they are worse in some way, some kinda of excuse to make nvidia not seem as bad as they are? We're critizing hardware companies that cheat to decieve us. Don't you think that's a fair thing to do?


Classic denial. It was in the Fall of 2001. Not 2 years ago. Sure go ahead and criticize but make sure you arent throwing stones in a glass house.

All this fanaticism is hilarious. So willing to jump on the bandwagon. You dont think it "is" possible the makers of 3dmark coupled with thier new friends at ATi could of set something like this up?
I mean seriously. And it still doesnt prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nvidia was cheating since Futuremark is using ETs and another ATI fan site beyond3d as thier sources of information.
And in 3dmark01 there are obvious issues with rendering.

But hey if you guys are willing to gobble this up like this after a grueling 10 day test period. Go right ahead. I have some beach front property in Arizona for sale also.

 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,553
248
106
nVidia, to my knowledge, has never done anything like this in the past. Even though that is nothing to go on, the facts of the matter make me wonder how objective Futuremark is being. I have an ATI Radeo 9700 now, love the card. My previous card was an MSI GF4 Ti4400, loved that card too, until it got to be too slow for my liking. My point is, I like both cards and they both come from good companies.

But, looking at what we do know, I am a little curious as to what futuremark is up to:
1. ATI pays Futuremark $50 thousand a year to "Beta test" 3dmark03. nVidia does not. Now, that means Futuremark
has $50 thousand in incentives to make ATI look better. Not saying they do, but the incentive is there.

2. ATI has had an unspecified amout of time to optimize their cards/drivers for 3dMark03 before the benchmark was released. So any optimizations ATI made for this benchmark would be hidden to the consumer. nVidia could not optimize their drivers for this benchmark until after it was released, so any optimizations made would be very obvious.

3. Futuremark has accused nVidia of cheating. Futuremark has a purely synthetic benchmark, one which it seems can be easily manipulated. nVidia is the #1 manufacturer of 3d Accelerators in the world, and has been since even before Madonion was founded. Why does everyone assume Futuremark is being honest, and nVidia is lying? Is it unreasonable that since nVidia has seniority as an upstanding company, Futuremark could be the ones lying, for the reasons stated in #1?

It seems people are more concerned with money and less concerned with honesty. I personally don't believe it is possible nowadays to have an unbiased benchmark, especially one that is purely sunthetic.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
You dont think it "is" possible the makers of 3dmark coupled with thier new friends at ATi could of set something like this up?

do you realize that they are not "new friends" but have been working together for quite some time?

do you really think microsoft, intel and amd, who are also strategic beta members, as well as creative, matrox, s3, sis, dell, gateway and the boatload of other companies in on the beta program would stand by and let ati pull something like you are suggesting off with their cash?


do you really think that it is just a coincidence that nvidia dropped out of it's long time membership just december of last year right at the same time the first geforcefx perview samples popped up?

do you realize that denial is not just a river in Africa?
 

Rogozhin

Senior member
Mar 25, 2003
483
0
0
I think nvidia should cheat their way to vga glory, selling $500 cards that perform %30 slower across the benchmarking board.

I'm all for for it!

rogo
 

Rogozhin

Senior member
Mar 25, 2003
483
0
0
These are pretty much my sentiments:



"Some thoughts on various issues:

1) I notice that several people think that it is ok to "optimize" for any benchmarks by whatever means are necessary as long as IQ does not suffer. First, IQ did suffer, it was not the same as reported by Futuremark. The zoomed in screen shots from 3dmark03 GT4 are proof of that now.
Discussion
And even if the IQ was the same, that is not the point. 3dmark03 is attempting to compare cards by having them render an equal amount of information. If one card renders less than others, it invalidates the whole process. The key point is that the benchmark is designed to offer an equal playing field.

2) Some people seem to think that if 3dmark03 didn't exist or was not popular, then nvidia wouldn't have to cheat in it. They would optimize for games instead. This is a flawed idea. How do you know that nvidia would not optimize for timedemos only, and not the game or engine as a whole? Surely it is easier to optimize for a static scene that plays exactly the same every single time than it is to optimize for the game itself. And of course, reviewers have a habit of using the same timedemos over and over.

So we are faced with the same problem here. nvidia could optimize for timedemos only, and give the illusion of better performance in game without any noticeable drop in IQ. But when you actually sit down to play a game, you won't benefit from those optimizations.

3) People are saying that 3dmark03 is not an indicator of current game performance. You're right, it isn't, and it's not supposed to be. Notice the company name, Futuremark. 3dmark03 is supposed to be indicative of future games which make extensive use of shaders. You can count on your hand(or possibly you might need both hands) how many games make extensive use of shaders right now. There are few DX8 games that really make use of shaders, and there no zero DX9 games.

4) The conspiracy theorists. nvidia was not providing global optimizations. 3dmark03 was detected in the nvidia driver, which re-wrote certain shader code. Did you even read the rest of the thread or Futuremark's report?

Some people seem to believe that Futuremark is out to crucify nvidia. The fact is that the NV3x architecture is not good with shaders. Not only Futuremark's 3dmark03, but also Shadermark and Rightmark3d show the same poor shading performance from NV3x cards. That's two other programs from independent companies. Is there really some vast conspiracy against nvidia?

5) Someone compared the clipping planes to the HSR used in 3dfx's drivers. First of all, that HSR was buggy and only worked in Quake3. Second of all, HSR has nothing to do with what nvidia was doing. They took advantage of the fact that a static camera was used."


Stealth




Rogo

 

WetWilly

Golden Member
Oct 13, 1999
1,126
0
0
do you realize that denial is not just a river in Africa?

I don't think they do. It's rather fascinating what knots nVidia fanboys will twist themselves into to avoid the obvious.

1. ATI pays Futuremark $50 thousand a year to "Beta test" 3dmark03. nVidia does not. Now, that means Futuremark
has $50 thousand in incentives to make ATI look better. Not saying they do, but the incentive is there


Yeah, right. Intel also pays Futuremark the beta fee, so Futuremark obviously has an incentive to write the benchmark so Intel's i8x5 integrated "Extreme Graphics" blows away the GeForce FX too. I haven't seen that happen.

ATI has had an unspecified amout of time to optimize their cards/drivers for 3dMark03 before the benchmark was released

If nVidia hadn't thrown a hissy fit when they realized their card was (a) going to suck and (b) Futuremark wasn't going to rewrite 3DMark03 to make it look less-sucky, then they would have had the same time ATI did.

So any optimizations ATI made for this benchmark would be hidden to the consumer

All optimizations are hidden to the consumer regardless of who wrote the driver, unless (a) they're ridiculously obvious (e.g. bad IQ), and/or (b) you've got developer tools. nVidia's "optimizations" certainly were hidden to the consumer.

nVidia could not optimize their drivers for this benchmark until after it was released, so any optimizations made would be very obvious

Obvious? There WEREN'T obvious at all because they could only be found with developer tools nVidia didn't have access to because of the aforementioned hissy fit.

Futuremark has accused nVidia of cheating

They not only accused them of cheating, they documented it pretty throughly. And yes, that statement was reviewed by Futuremark's lawyers before it was released.

Why does everyone assume Futuremark is being honest, and nVidia is lying?

History. NVidia got caught with their pants down by the Radeon 9700 and when they realized the Dustbuster 5800 couldn't beat it, they threw a tantrum - they dissed 3DMark03, dumped the 5800, rushed the 5900, and surprise - it can't conclusively beat a 9800 Pro. So they hyperhype results from an unreleased Doom3 and cheat at 3DMark03 since that's a big benchmark considered by OEMs.

Is it unreasonable that since nVidia has seniority as an upstanding company, Futuremark could be the ones lying, for the reasons stated in #1?

Yes it is unreasonable, for all the reasons mentioned above. Good grief, haven't you read their response? "We don't know what they did but it looks like they have intentionally tried to create a scenario that makes our products look bad." Oh-oh, the mean, evil Futuremark wants to hurt poor baby's nVidia's feelings and make them look bad. Give me a break. They know EXACTLY what Futuremark "did" because they were clever or stupid enough (take your pick) to write code to detect the app without using the filename and take significant shortcuts. Since that official excuse is SO lame, they'll probably say some renegade driver team member slipped in the cheat and NOBODY knew about it. I'll bet Jen-Hsun is totally shocked!
 

Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,953
0
0
On with the dreaded Fisking:

Originally posted by: ketchup79
nVidia, to my knowledge, has never done anything like this in the past.
1) Splash screen "cheat" with 3DM01SE. 2) 42.63 drivers scored relatively poorly in 3DM03. nV immediately issued a new driver, 42.68, and urged reviewers to bench 3DM03 with it. It raised scores dramatically, but lowered IQ obviously (Edit: remember the GT4 sky? That wasn't the only obvious IQ defect. [ H ] noticed imperfect textures in GT3, and the B3D forums have pics of poor IQ in 3DM03's own IQ test. Hardware.fr also has pics of the imperfect kettle. The FX5800 obviously had and still has trouble with FP).

Even though that is nothing to go on, the facts of the matter make me wonder how objective Futuremark is being.
Why aren't you wondering how objective nVidia is? They seemed to love 3DM01SE, even using it on their site to test your system to see if you should upgrade to one of their new cards (I think this was removed, for obvious reasons).

...
But, looking at what we do know, I am a little curious as to what futuremark is up to:
1. ATI pays Futuremark $50 thousand a year to "Beta test" 3dmark03. nVidia does not. Now, that means Futuremark
has $50 thousand in incentives to make ATI look better. Not saying they do, but the incentive is there.
nVidia was also a Beta member for 3-6 months, I suppose until it seemed they could not convince FM to redo 3DM03 to show their cards in a more favorable light. The incentive is for nVidia to make their hardware similar to ATi's R300 series, as MS chose the R300 as the DX9 template (just as MS chose nV's GF3 series as the DX8 template). Besides, 3DM is a strict DX benchmark, not a bench of how much you can optimize for each unique architecture. If you're going to use 3DM, you should at least know what it represents. It's not meant to show each card in its best light, but to show it in DirectX's light.

2. ATI has had an unspecified amout of time to optimize their cards/drivers for 3dMark03 before the benchmark was released. So any optimizations ATI made for this benchmark would be hidden to the consumer. nVidia could not optimize their drivers for this benchmark until after it was released, so any optimizations made would be very obvious.
As did nVidia, as they were a Beta member for a while. It seems they weren't twiddling their thumbs the whole time. ATi's optimization was admitted, in their press release today, where they said the changed the order of some shaders in GT4 to better suit their cards. This did not affect IQ, nor was it as blatant a cheat as nVidia's various ones, but FM considers it a cheat nonetheless, and ATi has said they'd remove it from future drivers.

3. Futuremark has accused nVidia of cheating. Futuremark has a purely synthetic benchmark, one which it seems can be easily manipulated. nVidia is the #1 manufacturer of 3d Accelerators in the world, and has been since even before Madonion was founded. Why does everyone assume Futuremark is being honest, and nVidia is lying? Is it unreasonable that since nVidia has seniority as an upstanding company, Futuremark could be the ones lying, for the reasons stated in #1?
FM answered your objections quite well in the FAQ they released (the PDF). nVidia does NOT have seniority as an upstanding company; if you knew their history, you'd understand why some people dislike them so much, even though they clearly have had the best hardware for a few years.

It seems people are more concerned with money and less concerned with honesty. I personally don't believe it is possible nowadays to have an unbiased benchmark, especially one that is purely sunthetic.
We're dealing with businesses--they're ALL concerned with money. There are many of us concerned with honesty, though, and some companies may realize honesty is the best policy to engender customer loyalty. As for your unbiased synthetic benchmark worry, read FM's FAQ (PDF) on this issue.

Edit: Argh, [ H ], not without spaces betwixt the brackets.
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,786
465
126
Originally posted by: WetWilly
do you realize that denial is not just a river in Africa?

I don't think they do. It's rather fascinating what knots nVidia fanboys will twist themselves into to avoid the obvious.

1. ATI pays Futuremark $50 thousand a year to "Beta test" 3dmark03. nVidia does not. Now, that means Futuremark
has $50 thousand in incentives to make ATI look better. Not saying they do, but the incentive is there


Yeah, right. Intel also pays Futuremark the beta fee, so Futuremark obviously has an incentive to write the benchmark so Intel's i8x5 integrated "Extreme Graphics" blows away the GeForce FX too. I haven't seen that happen.

ATI has had an unspecified amout of time to optimize their cards/drivers for 3dMark03 before the benchmark was released

If nVidia hadn't thrown a hissy fit when they realized their card was (a) going to suck and (b) Futuremark wasn't going to rewrite 3DMark03 to make it look less-sucky, then they would have had the same time ATI did.

So any optimizations ATI made for this benchmark would be hidden to the consumer

All optimizations are hidden to the consumer regardless of who wrote the driver, unless (a) they're ridiculously obvious (e.g. bad IQ), and/or (b) you've got developer tools. nVidia's "optimizations" certainly were hidden to the consumer.

nVidia could not optimize their drivers for this benchmark until after it was released, so any optimizations made would be very obvious

Obvious? There WEREN'T obvious at all because they could only be found with developer tools nVidia didn't have access to because of the aforementioned hissy fit.

Futuremark has accused nVidia of cheating

They not only accused them of cheating, they documented it pretty throughly. And yes, that statement was reviewed by Futuremark's lawyers before it was released.

Why does everyone assume Futuremark is being honest, and nVidia is lying?

History. NVidia got caught with their pants down by the Radeon 9700 and when they realized the Dustbuster 5800 couldn't beat it, they threw a tantrum - they dissed 3DMark03, dumped the 5800, rushed the 5900, and surprise - it can't conclusively beat a 9800 Pro. So they hyperhype results from an unreleased Doom3 and cheat at 3DMark03 since that's a big benchmark considered by OEMs.

Is it unreasonable that since nVidia has seniority as an upstanding company, Futuremark could be the ones lying, for the reasons stated in #1?

Yes it is unreasonable, for all the reasons mentioned above. Good grief, haven't you read their response? "We don't know what they did but it looks like they have intentionally tried to create a scenario that makes our products look bad." Oh-oh, the mean, evil Futuremark wants to hurt poor baby's nVidia's feelings and make them look bad. Give me a break. They know EXACTLY what Futuremark "did" because they were clever or stupid enough (take your pick) to write code to detect the app without using the filename and take significant shortcuts. Since that official excuse is SO lame, they'll probably say some renegade driver team member slipped in the cheat and NOBODY knew about it. I'll bet Jen-Hsun is totally shocked!


you know who dj is?

I remember they accused him of cheating,..

do you think hes a cheater or someone who just smoked thier test?
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,786
465
126
Originally posted by: Rogozhin
I think nvidia should cheat their way to vga glory, selling $500 cards that perform %30 slower across the benchmarking board.

I'm all for for it!

rogo


I think ati sold crap to the masses for years without even trying.

top that nancy boy
 

Creig

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,170
13
81
First the "FlowFX", now this. Nvidia had better keep their nose clean for awhile.
 
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