FWD snow question.

[JCH13]

There are lots of situations in winter driving, I would rather be out of control and stop sooner than in control and later. Just so happens I can't make an avoidance maneuver 'parked cars on one side steady traffic stream tother' and will rear end that car in front of me if I don't stop. I may fishtail a bit but I can feather the brakes to my own satisfaction.
ABS is for people who can't drive, I'd rather have the options

And as soon as you get a little sideways you're hitting traffic or a parked car, exacerbating your lack of control. You'd be much better off in a rear-end collision than bouncing around between parked cars and moving cars.

And if you REALLY think you're so good of a driver that you can handle that situation better than an ABS computer, you're an idiot. Leave adequate stopping distance between you and the next car and you don't have to decide between stopping distance and control.

Quoting from Chassis Handbook P182 as cited by Wiki, where most people blindly recite "ABS causes longer stopping distance":

The Limits of ABS
Special cases such as fresh snow or gravel, which tend to form a wedge in front of the locked up wheels that causes a braking effect, are exceptions that are of little relevance to everyday driving. In such cases, the improved steerability and dynamic stability provided by ABS are more important than the shortest possible stopping distance if the wheels were locked.

It's really misleading to say that ABS causes longer stopping distances when in reality, according to people who literally wrote the book on it, that statement has little bearing on real-world driving and the control offered from ABS is more important than the shortest stopping distance.

 

[SparkyJJO]

If you have ever driven in the snow, you know what I mean......I obviously don't mean tromp on it. There is always going to be some spin and TC will make it more difficult to get moving.

I live in Ohio and have driven in plenty of winter weather, with both FWD and RWD. I don't even have traction control. No, spinning the tires isn't the best way to get moving. Get better tires, it helps a lot.

I have 4WD now, but rarely use it. I typically just leave it in RWD unless it is really bad out. I have all terrain tires and while not quite as good as a decent snow tire they are still pretty capable and definitely better than most all seasons.

I am confused as to exactly what you guys arguing against ABS thinks it does. ABS generally doesn't engage unless you are going to lock the wheels, at which point, not having ABS will cause you to loose a large amount of control of your car. Unless you think you can realistically apply the exact pressure required to not cause the wheels to lock on every surface, ABS is required. And let's be honest, none of you fit that requirement.

Let's be honest, you're generalizing.

My first car had no fancy anything on it (93 taurus). No TCS, no ABS, nothing. I had to learn threshold braking on it, so I did. Every car I've had since then has had ABS, but I rarely trigger it because I learned without it, and from some testing I've found I can usually stop faster by threshold braking vs letting the ABS do it.

 

[ctk1981]

The cheap beater truck I bought from a friend had studded firestone tires on the rear...work quite well in the winter time.

 

[notposting]

I am confused as to exactly what you guys arguing against ABS thinks it does. ABS generally doesn't engage unless you are going to lock the wheels, at which point, not having ABS will cause you to loose a large amount of control of your car. Unless you think you can realistically apply the exact pressure required to not cause the wheels to lock on every surface, ABS is required. And let's be honest, none of you fit that requirement.

In heavy snow locations, you do better actually locking sometimes. Also, it was really annoying the first few times I ran into ABS over the years (like in a friends car or rental) since it would literally kick in right as I was pulling off the pedal.

Also, the bit someone posted about "the rare exceptions to everyday driving" should move somewhere where snow is an everyday occurrence for 4-6 months of the year

 

[Jumpem]

I always started in first gear. Snow tires are a must.

 

[JCH13]

In heavy snow locations, you do better actually locking sometimes. Also, it was really annoying the first few times I ran into ABS over the years (like in a friends car or rental) since it would literally kick in right as I was pulling off the pedal.

Also, the bit someone posted about "the rare exceptions to everyday driving" should move somewhere where snow is an everyday occurrence for 4-6 months of the year

Not that you noticed, but my location is in NH. I grew up in NH, I still live in NH. I have driven in 4-6 months of snow per year for my entire life. My hilly driveway is snow covered from the first snow until the spring thaw. I love alpine skiing, grew up in a town with a ski mountain, and never missed a powder day until I went to college. Never gotten stuck, never gone off the road, and never been in an accident, snow or otherwise.

Clearly I don't know how to drive in snow.

If you bother to go to the book that I/wiki linked, you'll notice that locking helps on fresh snow only. Not snow that's been driven on, not hard-packed snow, just fresh snow. I have very rarely, if ever, driven on virgin snow. Also, I can't recall a single instance where I would trade steering control to shorten my stopping distance. The only times where I've had serious traction issues (always had/have winter tires) was on black ice, where ABS is most definitely a good thing.

But you go ahead and disable TC and ABS and DSC. I just hope you only splatter yourself and not anyone else when you crash.

 

[LTC8K6]

The cheap beater truck I bought from a friend had studded firestone tires on the rear...work quite well in the winter time.

Studded tires are banned in lots of places, though.

 

[bruceb]

Hate to say it, but nowadays, most of the new drivers on the road, have no idea of how to control a car properly. Be it on snow, ice, rain or dry pavement. The so called Driver Ed teaches the basics, but not much else. And with all these new features, like Blind Spot Monitoring, Traction Control, Stability Control, AntiLock Brakes, Parking Assist etc, they are becoming more and more dependent on the car helping them. They should be taught on older cars which have no assistance. Go out to a parking lot where there is nothing to hit when it is raining or ice or snow and try various techniques. You will quickly see what works and what does not and how to do it properly. And you can do it safely.

 

[Murloc]

from what I know, automatic cars aren't good on slippery slopes because you're not in control when trying to start moving without slipping and they give too much torque too soon and slip, because you can't choose how much exactly to release the clutch and exactly how much gas to give.
Usually starting in first gear is better because you have more control, in second gear you may not be able to start at all if you're starting uphill, and you have less precision anyway. There's really no point imho, just give less gas (and this is what you can't do on the automatics I tried, there's a minimum amount, there's no middle ground that you can get by playing with clutch and gas).

AWD is not important when you're braking as 4 wheels are used anyway and when you're slipping what matters is the weight so a cheap SUV with all seasons can actually fare worse, while giving fake security to the driver because it's an AWD and you don't feel the road.

 

[pauldun170]

Hate to say it, but nowadays, most of the new drivers on the road, have no idea of how to control a car properly. Be it on snow, ice, rain or dry pavement. The so called Driver Ed teaches the basics, but not much else. And with all these new features, like Blind Spot Monitoring, Traction Control, Stability Control, AntiLock Brakes, Parking Assist etc, they are becoming more and more dependent on the car helping them. They should be taught on older cars which have no assistance. Go out to a parking lot where there is nothing to hit when it is raining or ice or snow and try various techniques. You will quickly see what works and what does not and how to do it properly. And you can do it safely.

Agree...

I hate to pull the "back in my day" card but learning to drive in NE weather in 70's and 80's era G body GM's on crappy mismatched tires has given me a major snob card when talking about winter driving.

My current fwd daily driver lacks abs and traction control and I live in a hilly area. No problems with this storm. It is a manual and it is way more controllable in this kind of weather.
My wifes car has the fancy crap in it.
I prefer driving my car.

 

[desy]

I can see it in motorcycles as there is a balance issue as well, although I have never driven an ABS motorcycle

 

[notposting]

Not that you noticed, but my location is in NH. I grew up in NH, I still live in NH. I have driven in 4-6 months of snow per year for my entire life. My hilly driveway is snow covered from the first snow until the spring thaw. I love alpine skiing, grew up in a town with a ski mountain, and never missed a powder day until I went to college. Never gotten stuck, never gone off the road, and never been in an accident, snow or otherwise.

Clearly I don't know how to drive in snow.

If you bother to go to the book that I/wiki linked, you'll notice that locking helps on fresh snow only. Not snow that's been driven on, not hard-packed snow, just fresh snow. I have very rarely, if ever, driven on virgin snow. Also, I can't recall a single instance where I would trade steering control to shorten my stopping distance. The only times where I've had serious traction issues (always had/have winter tires) was on black ice, where ABS is most definitely a good thing.

But you go ahead and disable TC and ABS and DSC. I just hope you only splatter yourself and not anyone else when you crash.

I can recall plenty of times when I have fishtailed slightly and come to a stop in the distance I wanted. I can recall one instance where ABS helpfully kept me in a nice straight line and I hit another vehicle. A little fishtailing while stopping in time is markedly different than careening out of control, bashing from one lane to another.

Also...hmmm NH. Not the snowiest place around. Looked up the numbers. They're cute.

http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/New-Hampshire/annual-snowfall.php
http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Michigan/annual-snowfall.php
http://www.pasty.com/snow/index.html

Running results for Keweenaw county gets a higher 30 year average as well (I got 217), Houghton is actually pretty sheltered from the snow. So yeah, you can drive in the snow, congrats. So can I, it's how learned to drive. And I haven't driven very many AWD, TCS, ABS equipped vehicles in the snow. But the results have always proven to be less than satisfactory.

Just talked to my mom a couple weeks ago. She had gotten a used van from a friend, as her Jeep finally gave up the ghost. She could not get the damn thing up the steep hills in town, it would slide around, sideways, backwards, you name it. Looked up the manual and told her how to disable TCS, now she can actually go up a hill.

And to finish, we already had an incident this winter. Everything enabled, because I was an idiot and forgot to disable this crap. Reading on the forums for our car, the system purely sucks in any sort of deep snow or slop. But it's cool, because the car will be "in control". (IMO, control is doing what the driver wants it to do.)

By the way, I hope you and those you love are never hurt or injured in a car crash.

 

[JCH13]

I've never owned an AWD vehicle, and only my most recent one has TCS.

I never said all TCS or ABS systems were created equal, clearly you've run into some really bad ones. However, that doesn't mean that really good ones aren't out there.

I recently drove a Charger with all seasons through some really bad snow (rental car). The TCS in it was brilliant, I never bogged down and the back end never stepped out on me.

My point is that you can't lump all ABS/TCS together. There are good versions and there are bad versions. Recent vehicles have been leaps and bounds ahead of vehicles even 5 or 10 years old.

 

[lakedude]

Some of the posts in this thread remind me of how shade tree mechanics will go on about how EFI sucks compared to a carb <roll eyes>.

Properly implemented technology is mana from heaven. I've got an AWD with AL, TC and SC and it is just awesome in the snow. There is no need of spinning wheels (which does not generally sound like a good idea anyhow), just step on the gas it goes. Step on the brake, it stops and you can still steer as well. There is no going back to a vehicle that lacks these features because they are fantastic.

Didn't bother getting the AWD out today (-3 deg F). The lil gas sipper only has FWD and AL which is enough if the snow isn't too deep (over the ground effects).

Technology rulz! LED bulbs, AWD, AL, TC, and SC are the best things since sliced bread.

I do agree it helps to have learned some skills. I'm old enough that I learned how to drive in the snow/ice before these tasty bits of technolgy were widely available. I can see how a young person would be clueless about such thing and could get themselves into trouble. If the automatics are kicking in you are driving too fast!

 

[lakedude]

Safety tip on ice if you drive an auto. If it is really slick try "N" when stopping. Leaving the thing in "D" adds energy to the system, sometimes it is enough to keep you from stopping on really slick ice, especially if the car is not warmed up yet an the engine is racing with a high idle. Perhaps warming the car up is a better idea...

 

[heymrdj]

I can recall plenty of times when I have fishtailed slightly and come to a stop in the distance I wanted. I can recall one instance where ABS helpfully kept me in a nice straight line and I hit another vehicle. A little fishtailing while stopping in time is markedly different than careening out of control, bashing from one lane to another.

So what you're telling me is you're a really fricken bad driver for a supposedly experienced person?

Distance from vehicle and speed to stop, do you comprehend?

 

[notposting]

So what you're telling me is you're a really fricken bad driver for a supposedly experienced person?

Distance from vehicle and speed to stop, do you comprehend?

Came into town at 1 am in rental Explorer, stock tires. Temp around 5 Fahrenheit. Going under 10 mph approaching stop. Braked far in advance of normal stopping distance. ABS kicked in as I pulled off the brake, mashed it back down where it then just laughed at me. Slid a couple feet past stop, the *only* other car in town was in the closest of 3 crossing lanes. Sideswipe on the side.

Police came out for accident writeup. City hadn't scraped, hadn't sanded, hadn't cut down snowbanks. Miraculously, the next day the whole bridge interchange was plowed, scraped, sanded, and banks cut down.

But go on making snap judgements about situations you don't know anything about. Oh yeah, no ticket for my really fricken bad driving either.

Didn't bother getting the AWD out today (-3 deg F). The lil gas sipper only has FWD and AL which is enough if the snow isn't too deep (over the ground effects).

Technology rulz! LED bulbs, AWD, AL, TC, and SC are the best things since sliced bread.

I do agree it helps to have learned some skills. I'm old enough that I learned how to drive in the snow/ice before these tasty bits of technolgy were widely available. I can see how a young person would be clueless about such thing and could get themselves into trouble. If the automatics are kicking in you are driving too fast!

Our older car is a 2003 Vibe. Never liked it's performance in the snow (lightweight 1.8L engine, wide front wheels) but have been throwing it around Michigan for the last 8 years no problem. Been through several cars before it -- our 95 Neon had ABS but otherwise nothing.

New car is a 2010 Vibe AWD, Toyota system inside. Saw a lot of complaints on the forum about the TCS when the 2009/2010 gen came out, it seems really touchy and will cut power when trying to get moving. In wet conditions I can see this setup being good, in conditions like my wife driving this past summer it would be good, but in snow I would honestly prefer a simple full time AWD system. No part time, no as needed for slippage, just go juice.

PS what is AL?

I've never owned an AWD vehicle, and only my most recent one has TCS.

I never said all TCS or ABS systems were created equal, clearly you've run into some really bad ones. However, that doesn't mean that really good ones aren't out there.

I recently drove a Charger with all seasons through some really bad snow (rental car). The TCS in it was brilliant, I never bogged down and the back end never stepped out on me.

My point is that you can't lump all ABS/TCS together. There are good versions and there are bad versions. Recent vehicles have been leaps and bounds ahead of vehicles even 5 or 10 years old.

Yeah, they also...respond differently than a system without. I don't like when the system is handling all inputs and deciding whether it likes that idea or not. I need to get used to that. I plan to take the newer car out sometime this winter to an (empty) parking lot and throw it around, try the various systems on and off.

At this point, I am planning on us having full sets of snow tires/wheels for both cars by next winter in addition to our regular sets. One decision to make will be getting TPMS sensors or not for the 2010 second set.

 

[heymrdj]

Came into town at 1 am in rental Explorer, stock tires. Temp around 5 Fahrenheit. Going under 10 mph approaching stop. Braked far in advance of normal stopping distance. ABS kicked in as I pulled off the brake, mashed it back down where it then just laughed at me. Slid a couple feet past stop, the *only* other car in town was in the closest of 3 crossing lanes. Sideswipe on the side.

Police came out for accident writeup. City hadn't scraped, hadn't sanded, hadn't cut down snowbanks. Miraculously, the next day the whole bridge interchange was plowed, scraped, sanded, and banks cut down.

But go on making snap judgements about situations you don't know anything about. Oh yeah, no ticket for my really fricken bad driving either.

I can make these snap judgements, been in a similar situation. I drive a 7k loaded SUV for work, I know that it can take over a 150ft to stop from 10mph to 0. You were going too fast for conditions, intersections always ice more than the roadways due to thaw cycles. I'm just saying if you're going to talk like you know what you're doing here, at least actually know it.

 

[lakedude]

Sorry, AL = Anti Lock = ABS

My current AWD is my third 4WD type vehicle. The first 2 were switchable/part time 2WD or 4WD which technically might be better for off road but the thing is I drive ON the road and the full time AWD is just brilliant ON the road IMHO. The roads are almost never completely snow or ice covered, they get patchy. The old switchable systems were terrible because you had to pick one way or another. If you picked 4WD the tires scrubbed if you went around a dry corner. The new AWD system just goes. It goes on wet/slick boat ramps, it goes if there is snow everywhere and it really shines in patchy combinations of ice/snow/dry.

 

[Spicedaddy]

I bought a house near a lake last summer, and the driveway is very steep. (I'm in Quebec, so we get a lot of snow)

My car is a VW GTI with DSG transmission, and I have brand new Michelin winter tires. To go up my driveway, I lock it in first gear and leave traction control ON and let it do its thing. Does very well.

I also tried it with a Nissan Sentra with CVT tranny. Put it in L and left traction control ON, and it also did pretty well. It has cheap chinese winter tires.

My friend with a Hyundai Elantra, new Bridgestone Blizzak tires also went up the hill. It's an automatic tranny, he started in 1st and it shifted in 2nd half way up, and the car almost stopped but eventually he made it.

So here's my impressions:

1. Good tires make all the difference.
2. DSG and CVT seemed better to me, but hard to tell since they're all different cars.
3. Try not to shift while going up a steep hill. You lose momentum and the wheels start to spin.

And I'll be getting an AWD car next summer.

 

[smackababy]

Came into town at 1 am in rental Explorer, stock tires. Temp around 5 Fahrenheit. Going under 10 mph approaching stop. Braked far in advance of normal stopping distance. ABS kicked in as I pulled off the brake, mashed it back down where it then just laughed at me. Slid a couple feet past stop, the *only* other car in town was in the closest of 3 crossing lanes. Sideswipe on the side.

Police came out for accident writeup. City hadn't scraped, hadn't sanded, hadn't cut down snowbanks. Miraculously, the next day the whole bridge interchange was plowed, scraped, sanded, and banks cut down.

But go on making snap judgements about situations you don't know anything about. Oh yeah, no ticket for my really fricken bad driving either.

I am confused. If ABS kept you in a straight line, your line was at odds with where you should have been going. Also, you (going under 10MPH with the wheels spinning) did not even attempt to avoid sideswiping the car.

I think either your story is not entirely remember correctly or you are an awful driver. Possibly both, and neither are the fault of ABS.

 

[Griffinhart]

The only times I have ever had problems is when ABS and/or TC has helpfully decided it knew more about my intentions, and decided I couldn't possibly want control over the throttle or brakes.

Both of them are complete crap in the snow. Don't care if they are paired with snow tires, AWD, whatever. Crap.

I tend to agree with TC. My current car is the first one I have had with it, and I have had to turn it off on snow days. I find it's great for wet days, but terrible on snow. On one occasion It got to the point that the wheels just stopped trying to turn on a moderately snowy hill. I had to back up off the road, turn it off, and proceed to climb the hill. While spinning tires may not help you climb a hill, they at least don't actively slow the car to a stop on a hill.

As for ABS, I don't care for it. It's never come into play for me on dry roads since I know how to pump the breaks, and I have found it to be annoying on snow days.

For me, the best control in snowy conditions are from 4WD and a Manual Transmission. Admittedly, I have never driven an AWD car, so I can't compare.

 

[Vdubchaos]

Hate to say it, but nowadays, most of the new drivers on the road, have no idea of how to control a car properly. Be it on snow, ice, rain or dry pavement. The so called Driver Ed teaches the basics, but not much else. And with all these new features, like Blind Spot Monitoring, Traction Control, Stability Control, AntiLock Brakes, Parking Assist etc, they are becoming more and more dependent on the car helping them. They should be taught on older cars which have no assistance. Go out to a parking lot where there is nothing to hit when it is raining or ice or snow and try various techniques. You will quickly see what works and what does not and how to do it properly. And you can do it safely.

Not to take this thread off rails....

But isn't it funny how we have 9/11 amount of deaths on our highway each and EVERY month yet our Government will not spend a dime improving the Drivers education or do just about anything about?

i know I know, drivers ed doesn't make corps any money and all......just saying.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Reading these posts is flat out painful.

Couple of things... FWD or not, you need to test the way your car behaves in snow and ice. In parking lots, driveways without trees and ditches, before you need to know how the car will behave on ice.

Snow tires are great, M/S at minimum, in my opinion, if you live in snow areas.


These ABS comments are terrifying to me. The only way you are 'better' without ABS is on a racetrack, in a track-oriented car older than early 2000's. Any modern ABS system will not lock up early like the older systems. I get it, it's supposed to be manly to not like tech aids and I'm right there with you in some circumstances... But modern ABS systems brake much MUCH better than you can, particularly on public roads. Even in snow or ice. If you have an older car or truck they can act funny, but there aren't many other exceptions.

With traction control... There are many different types, depending on manufacturer and especially year of the car. Just because a late 90's era throttle-based TC gets in the way doesn't mean jack on a modern brake-based TC car. But again, test it before you need it.

One thing I find odd..... I had family in michigan and used to go up there a couple of times a year, and it absolutely amazed me how flat-out WRONG many people are about the correct way to drive in snow. Assuming that northerners know how to drive is a terrible mistake. They seem to be way over-confident, evident in this "rental explorer' guy who sideswiped some cars.


Bottom line, to me, is #1 know your vehicle, it's options re: TC/ABS and how they work in snow and #2 have appropriate tires.

 

[tonyfreak215]

And if you REALLY think you're so good of a driver that you can handle that situation better than an ABS computer, you're an idiot. Leave adequate stopping distance between you and the next car and you don't have to decide between stopping distance and control.

A lot of it comes down to the age of the car and the complexity of the system. When it first came out, skilled drivers could out perform the ABS sensor. Now-a-days, with modern ABS systems, there is just no way. We have systems that can brake each wheel independently. That is something even The Stig can't do.

Now with that said; sometimes you will want/need to slide the tires. For example; once you spin, you want to lock up the brakes so that your car continues spinning in a straight trajectory.

As for ABS, I don't care for it. It's never come into play for me on dry roads since I know how to pump the breaks, and I have found it to be annoying on snow days.

You realize there is more to it than just "pump the brakes" right? Pumping the brakes causes you to take longer to brake. Do you know how to threshold brake?

These ABS comments are terrifying to me. The only way you are 'better' without ABS is on a racetrack, in a track-oriented car older than early 2000's. Any modern ABS system will not lock up early like the older systems. I get it, it's supposed to be manly to not like tech aids and I'm right there with you in some circumstances... But modern ABS systems brake much MUCH better than you can, particularly on public roads. Even in snow or ice. If you have an older car or truck they can act funny, but there aren't many other exceptions.

With traction control... There are many different types, depending on manufacturer and especially year of the car. Just because a late 90's era throttle-based TC gets in the way doesn't mean jack on a modern brake-based TC car. But again, test it before you need it.

+1000! I have friends who turn off their TC every time they get in the car. I think it's dumb (esp with how he drives). Sure it takes away some of the control and fun, but I would prefer to have it in case it is needed. They also state "I'm a good enough driver to control my car" despite me beating them (RX-8 and MX-5) in my Mazda 2 at an autocross. Scares the crap out of me.