FWD snow question.

[JCH13]

Now with that said; sometimes you will want/need to slide the tires. For example; once you spin, you want to lock up the brakes so that your car continues spinning in a straight trajectory.

Wut? Floridian, please explain what "spinning in a straight trajectory" is and why on earth anyone would want to do it in the snow, or ever.

 

[notposting]

I am confused. If ABS kept you in a straight line, your line was at odds with where you should have been going. Also, you (going under 10MPH with the wheels spinning) did not even attempt to avoid sideswiping the car.

I think either your story is not entirely remember correctly or you are an awful driver. Possibly both, and neither are the fault of ABS.

I'm glad you have that opinion. You would be confused. Because you're a moron and should STFU. Thanks for telling me what the condition are like there though.

Google maps link

Car from left didn't see us or our lights. See how the road crossing curves? It's a sideswipe. Got in an accident for the first time in my life, in a place I drove for over 10 years. Without ABS, wouldn't have happened. Only other accident I've had? Single car, ABS and TCS both "helping". Wouldn't have happened in a vehicle without.

 

[notposting]

One thing I find odd..... I had family in michigan and used to go up there a couple of times a year, and it absolutely amazed me how flat-out WRONG many people are about the correct way to drive in snow. Assuming that northerners know how to drive is a terrible mistake. They seem to be way over-confident, evident in this "rental explorer' guy who sideswiped some cars.


Bottom line, to me, is #1 know your vehicle, it's options re: TC/ABS and how they work in snow and #2 have appropriate tires.

I know how TCS and ABS work in snow. They work for crap. Ah, so you come up to where it snows now and then, and ignore people who live there and drive it in every day.

Over confident? Hardly. Snow makes everything more difficult, starting, *especially stopping*, control of direction. Other drivers in the same conditions having similar problems as well. Unseen ice, ruts in the snowpack, mounded snow, drifted snow, packed slick snow, slushy snow, it's all a hazard.

The only TWO times I have EVER had any trouble? In a rental, (I'll borrow it ahead of time to know my vehicle, right?) and in a (new to us, with modern systems) car in our second snowfall of the year. BOTH times, there would have been no accident without these so called "safety features".

But whatever, I realize some people rely on these and can't drive without them, and want to force them on everyone. I'm out.

 

[LTC8K6]

I know how TCS and ABS work in snow. They work for crap. Ah, so you come up to where it snows now and then, and ignore people who live there and drive it in every day.

Over confident? Hardly. Snow makes everything more difficult, starting, *especially stopping*, control of direction. Other drivers in the same conditions having similar problems as well. Unseen ice, ruts in the snowpack, mounded snow, drifted snow, packed slick snow, slushy snow, it's all a hazard.

The only TWO times I have EVER had any trouble? In a rental, (I'll borrow it ahead of time to know my vehicle, right?) and in a (new to us, with modern systems) car in our second snowfall of the year. BOTH times, there would have been no accident without these so called "safety features".

But whatever, I realize some people rely on these and can't drive without them, and want to force them on everyone. I'm out.

Bullshit. The government would never mandate anything that was not safer.

Seriously though, I disagree with you.

 

[tonyfreak215]

Wut? Floridian, please explain what "spinning in a straight trajectory" is and why on earth anyone would want to do it in the snow, or ever.

Kinda went off topic, forgot we were talking about snow.

Mostly while at an autocross or other performance event where you want to be predictable. But there could be circumstances where you would want that on the street.

 

[heymrdj]

I know how TCS and ABS work in snow. They work for crap. Ah, so you come up to where it snows now and then, and ignore people who live there and drive it in every day.

Over confident? Hardly. Snow makes everything more difficult, starting, *especially stopping*, control of direction. Other drivers in the same conditions having similar problems as well. Unseen ice, ruts in the snowpack, mounded snow, drifted snow, packed slick snow, slushy snow, it's all a hazard.

The only TWO times I have EVER had any trouble? In a rental, (I'll borrow it ahead of time to know my vehicle, right?) and in a (new to us, with modern systems) car in our second snowfall of the year. BOTH times, there would have been no accident without these so called "safety features".

But whatever, I realize some people rely on these and can't drive without them, and want to force them on everyone. I'm out.

Glad you're bowing out. You've admitted the only time you've had issue is because you don't understand the car. You can't let something help you if you fight it, in fact you just make it worse. You suck at driving. Period end of story.

 

[DVad3r]

One thing I learned with my FWD car is to turn off traction control in snow because with winter tires you need some spin to get grip.

 

[jaedaliu]

One thing I learned with my FWD car is to turn off traction control in snow because with winter tires you need some spin to get grip.

That's not a winter tire thing. That's a snow thing.

I gotta say, winter tires are AMAZING! (have I already said it?) I've only ever driven all seasons my whole life (young age of 34 right now.) But after a couple near misses last winter (wife on an icy bridge, me on a highway during moderate snowfall and light traffic) we got winter tires. SO MUCH TRACTION!

Anyways, when winter's over, I'm putting summer tires on my wife's Camry. Her all seasons are due for a replacement.

 

[lakedude]

One thing I learned with my FWD car is to turn off traction control in snow because with winter tires you need some spin to get grip.

I hate to argue with someone who lives up in the Great White North, but...

No!

spinning = slipping = less traction

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/ben_townsend/StaticandKineticFriction.htm

"It is better, therefore, for your tire to be using static friction rather than kinetic friction."

 

[OverVolt]

I hate to argue with someone who lives up in the Great White North, but...

No!

spinning = slipping = less traction

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/ben_townsend/StaticandKineticFriction.htm

"It is better, therefore, for your tire to be using static friction rather than kinetic friction."

But its not a math problem. Its a real world problem. In 6 inches or under of snow you can spin wheels down to the asphalt if its light enough snow.

So which is better static friction on snow or sliding friction on asphalt?

It also seems to me that cold tires are a huge problem in snow. Getting them warm helps immensely with grip.

 

[JCH13]

Kinda went off topic, forgot we were talking about snow.

Mostly while at an autocross or other performance event where you want to be predictable. But there could be circumstances where you would want that on the street.

I cannot think of any situation, on the track or the street, where I would want to be spinning in a straight line vs having some shred of steering control. That, and the fact that locking your tires when you spin is a GREAT way to flat-spot them makes this a terrible idea IMO.

But its not a math problem. Its a real world problem. In 6 inches or under of snow you can spin wheels down to the asphalt if its light enough snow.

So which is better static friction on snow or sliding friction on asphalt?

It also seems to me that cold tires are a huge problem in snow. Getting them warm helps immensely with grip.

Spinning through snow to asphalt is a great way to snap an axle and turn a bunch of relatively harmless snow into ice.

Good snow tires will generally have enough grip on snow, don't use all-seasons.

Again, snow tires are key to temperature here. They have a softer rubber compound that generates good traction at low temperatures without needed to be warmed up. On dry pavement with summer tires, yes, heat helps. I would be stunned if you found any real evidence that suggested heating up winter tires helps with snow grip.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

People, don't you know?

The laws of physics change once you go north of kentucky. Above that line, once the snow hits the ground the principles of friction reverse themselves.


notposting.. You're doing a poor job representing northern drivers. There's already enough of a stigma, no need to exacerbate it.

 

[DVad3r]

You can learn about all the physics you want, but in my car and my drive experience, that is false. Even a slight amount of snow, traction control in my car in particular is a complete fail, especially when accelerating. If turned off my tires spin and dig in, and I launch from stop lights at warp speed leaving everyone behind. Trust me, I've driven in the snow for the past 11 years, this year the winter is brutal.

Don't believe me? Even read the latest car and driver winter driving tips, it says turning off traction control does help.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-driving-guide-tips-to-survive-the-snow-and-ice-feature

On the other hand, there’s a reason that your traction-control system comes with that easily located on/off button. If you are stuck in the snow, wheelspin can sometimes help you get unstuck. Traction control will prevent wheelspin, so if you turn it off, motion might return to your car.

I hate to argue with someone who lives up in the Great White North, but...

No!

spinning = slipping = less traction

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/ben_townsend/StaticandKineticFriction.htm

"It is better, therefore, for your tire to be using static friction rather than kinetic friction."

 

[pauldun170]

Random thought as to why spinning wheels can help you get unstuck vs most traction control systems....
Spinning tires dig
Spinning tires melt
Spinning tires helps you find traction.
As tires spin on slick surface the car might start to weave back and forth as it hunts for a nice sweet spot.

Traction control makes the best of the traction currently available. If there is no traction, you are pretty much screwed.

random thought over

 

[lakedude]

DVad3r from your article:

"Stability control should always stay on in the winter"

and

"If you are stuck in truly deep snow and the car isn’t moving at all, spinning the tires is going to make the problem worse."

Now the vehicle could make a huge difference. I promise my AWD Honda works great in snow with the automatics on...

 

[pauldun170]

DVad3r from your article:

"Stability control should always stay on in the winter"

and

"If you are stuck in truly deep snow and the car isn’t moving at all, spinning the tires is going to make the problem worse."

Now the vehicle could make a huge difference. I promise my AWD Honda works great in snow with the automatics on...

For "truly deep snow" then you are in a situation similar to beach hopping.
When you tires dig, ride height becomes and issue as the vehicle sinks in and the mounds of snow surrounding the car will prevent motion. Also if the hole the spinning tire gets to deep the tire wont be able to make it up the sides of the hole.
In "truly deep snow" traction control won't be of much use either

However, if you put your self in that position to begin with instead of either staying off the road or clearing out the area around the car to begin with then you damn well deserve to be stuck there to sit and think about what you've done.

 

[DVad3r]

If you are in the area, come by my place and Ill take you for a spin in my car, you will see for yourself. If you are in deep snow obviously digging yourself in won't help, but we aren't talking about deep snow, we are talking about snow that you can actually drive on still. Also I can't say what the traction control system is like on newer cars, I assume it's much better at handling snow, mine is a complete fail.

 

[lakedude]

Well I'll take your word for it that your car sucks in the snow if you take my word for it that my AWD with ABS, TC and SC is awesome the snow with all the fancy stuff turned on.

 

[DaTT]

I live in Ohio and have driven in plenty of winter weather, with both FWD and RWD. I don't even have traction control. No, spinning the tires isn't the best way to get moving. Get better tires, it helps a lot.

I have great tires. My tires always spin while driving in snow while accelerating from a stop. TC prevents you from allowing the spin and controlling the tire spin to begin moving forward. IMHO Traction control is terrible to have turned on while trying to accelerate from a stop on a slippery surface. This is coming from 14 years of TC experience and wintery weather.

 

[Kelvrick]

I have great tires. My tires always spin while driving in snow while accelerating from a stop. TC prevents you from allowing the spin and controlling the tire spin to begin moving forward. IMHO Traction control is terrible to have turned on while trying to accelerate from a stop on a slippery surface. This is coming from 14 years of TC experience and wintery weather.

I don't have that much experience to pad my resume aside from maybe 6-7 trips to Lake Tahoe a year in my AWD subaru. 1 week each January in Anchorage, Alaska for the last 4 years in an FWD rental car is the best I have. In the FWD rental in Alaska, turning off traction control probably gets me through the intersection twice as fast as leaving it on unless I start so slowly I'm only going 10-15mph by the time I've hit the other side of the intersection. It cuts power too soon and is too slow in letting power be applied again compared to me easing throttle and coming back on manually.

This sucks because it automatically comes on when I go over 35 or 40 mph so I have to remember to hit the stupid button again.

My 2008 outback has AWD and I guess this:
http://www.subaru-global.com/tec_vdc.html

 

[lakedude]

Well I'm gonna say different strokes. I noticed that the wheel spinners are talking about taking off quick and getting through an intersection fast. I'm more worried about getting home safe than quick.

I've been driving 35 years and never missed a day of work due to weather. I've owned and driven many different types of vehicles in the snow/ice.

The worst was a front wheel drive Dodge Daytona Shelby Z with no modern electric safety devices, terrible!

In the middle somewhere was the RWD Corvette with ABS and TC which was not great but it was much, much better than the FWD Dodge. I credit the electric controls for the majority of the improvement.

Near the top were my 4WD trucks with single rear channel ABS and topping the list by a large margin is my AWD with multichannel ABS, TC and SC.

 

[JCH13]

I think the people who "hate TC/ABS/DSC" etc. have between one and a few data points that stick out in their memory where they were using a car with a really shitty version of one of those technologies and infer that all similar systems are just as crappy. It's irrational, really.

Just yesterday driving home from work my ABS kicked on at the bottom of an ice-covered hill on my driveway (last precip. was 1in of freezing rain). I was REALLY glad to just ride the brake pedal and focus on steering to stay on the driveway, away from the 3-4ft drop-off on either side. Then traveling uphill TC kept things fairly under control over super-patchy ice, where modulating the throttle would have made anyone want to tear their hair out.

To head this one off at the pass... I know how to drive a car without ABS and TC, literally all of my track and autox experience is in cars without ABS or TC. That doesn't mean I want to apply that level of concentration or skill early every morning or after I'm exhausted at the end of every day.

 

[OverVolt]

I don't have that much experience to pad my resume aside from maybe 6-7 trips to Lake Tahoe a year in my AWD subaru. 1 week each January in Anchorage, Alaska for the last 4 years in an FWD rental car is the best I have. In the FWD rental in Alaska, turning off traction control probably gets me through the intersection twice as fast as leaving it on unless I start so slowly I'm only going 10-15mph by the time I've hit the other side of the intersection. It cuts power too soon and is too slow in letting power be applied again compared to me easing throttle and coming back on manually.

This sucks because it automatically comes on when I go over 35 or 40 mph so I have to remember to hit the stupid button again.

My 2008 outback has AWD and I guess this:
http://www.subaru-global.com/tec_vdc.html

It seems to me that really Subaru just has the best AWD differentials.
http://reviews.cnet.com/2300-10863_7-10007878.html

Limited slip differentials are huge. I have FWD with no LSD. Its really just about the worst thing ever. I pretty much need snow tires.

Subaru's goes both ways. Its really very cool.

 

[waggy]

Ugh the amount of fail in this thread is amazing.

my 2 cents.

I started driving in Oregon at 14. I'm now 40 (ugh) most of that driving is in Northern IL and some in NY for school.

for the most part I never had ABS or TC (hell my van is the first vehicle i can recall with TC). only cars i have had with ABS has been 2 Taurus's and 2 vans (last 4 cars! this over a 6 yr time period).

I learned to drive in the snow (northern IL gets a lot of snow...well kinda) and how to stop. you NEED to give yourself a longer stopping time and limit the brakes. IF you fishtail you are are doing it wrong. IF you hit the car in front you are doing it wrong.

I rarely have had the ABS kick on. the few times i have is in those "oh shit" moments and glad it did. it kept the car going where i wanted.

The idiots saying "i would rather spin out then have abs" are fucking idiots.

As for starting out in auto's in most cars it don't matter.

as for big suv vs car in the snow. BEST car i ever had for winter driving was a old Honda Accord hatchback (think 83) it was awesome in the snow. take offs were easy (oh it was a five speed manual) and would cut through even 6-8 inches of snow no problem. only issue with the car was the heater sucked ass.

 

[pauldun170]

This was timely
http://jalopnik.com/the-ten-worst-things-you-can-do-while-driving-in-winter-1498639091