FWD snow question.

[JCH13]

Oh there doesn't seem to be much point in that then. Everyone always told me D1 or D2 was better in snow... now I have doubts.

D1 or D2 won't be better in snow in a modern car. With any decent TC system it won't matter what gear you start in. In ye olden days of yore starting in 1st would have been a good idea to limit slippage, assuming you could appropriately modulate the throttle.

Driving around in D1 or D2 is pretty stupid. People used to think down-shifting was a good substitute for braking, because they wheels would never lock. In reality wheels don't need to be locked to be slipping, they just need to be slipping relative to the road. With ABS you will utilize the maximum available braking force from all 4 tires in the most effective way. Leaving your car in D1 or D2 will just make weight transfer and traction demands larger, making the car harder to control smoothly. You've got a FWD car, right? Engine braking only uses 2 tires anyway. This by itself makes using the actual brake pedal better for slowing down because it uses 4 tires, not just 2.

Just leave your car in D and drive normally.

I am, of course, assuming you have a car with TC and ABS and not something considered an antique.

 

[notposting]

I would take an "antique" over these pieces of shit with TC and ABS. Pure garbage.

 

[Kaido]

I would take an "antique" over these pieces of crap with TC and ABS. Pure garbage.

Really? I won't buy a car without Traction Control, I absolutely love it for driving in the snow! And ABS has saved my rear on more than on occasion!

 

[nerp]

I would take an "antique" over these pieces of shit with TC and ABS. Pure garbage.

What makes you say that? So the Porsche 918 Spyder is a piece of garbage? Ok then.

 

[LTC8K6]

D1 or D2 won't be better in snow in a modern car. With any decent TC system it won't matter what gear you start in. In ye olden days of yore starting in 1st would have been a good idea to limit slippage, assuming you could appropriately modulate the throttle.

Driving around in D1 or D2 is pretty stupid. People used to think down-shifting was a good substitute for braking, because they wheels would never lock. In reality wheels don't need to be locked to be slipping, they just need to be slipping relative to the road. With ABS you will utilize the maximum available braking force from all 4 tires in the most effective way. Leaving your car in D1 or D2 will just make weight transfer and traction demands larger, making the car harder to control smoothly. You've got a FWD car, right? Engine braking only uses 2 tires anyway. This by itself makes using the actual brake pedal better for slowing down because it uses 4 tires, not just 2.

Just leave your car in D and drive normally.

I am, of course, assuming you have a car with TC and ABS and not something considered an antique.

Driving around in D2 would be bad in the snow with front, rear, or all wheel drive. You are likely to lock wheels from engine braking.

Taking off in D2 in a slippery situation would be correct to get moving if your auto trans actually takes off in 2nd gear. Once you are moving, then you'd go back to normal.

I think mfgs stopped the 2nd gear thing when traction control became available. It was then no longer necessary to have the 2nd gear option for getting moving.

 

[LTC8K6]

Really? I won't buy a car without Traction Control, I absolutely love it for driving in the snow! And ABS has saved my rear on more than on occasion!

I prefer the type of TC that actually reduces engine power over the simple type that only uses the brakes.

 

[Ferzerp]

Solution: Get a car that has about 12 different driving modes that allow everything to be off for one of them like I did

 

[notposting]

The only times I have ever had problems is when ABS and/or TC has helpfully decided it knew more about my intentions, and decided I couldn't possibly want control over the throttle or brakes.

Both of them are complete crap in the snow. Don't care if they are paired with snow tires, AWD, whatever. Crap.

 

[notposting]

Solution: Get a car that has about 12 different driving modes that allow everything to be off for one of them like I did

We can disable TC and VSC on our newer car, but not ABS, unfortunately.

PS: what car did you get?

 

[destrekor]

The only times I have ever had problems is when ABS and/or TC has helpfully decided it knew more about my intentions, and decided I couldn't possibly want control over the throttle or brakes.

Both of them are complete crap in the snow. Don't care if they are paired with snow tires, AWD, whatever. Crap.

I've not once ever heard any negative opinion of TC on AWD Subaru's - especially on the WRX and WRX STi models - but because of how much I foam at the mouth over those cars, I could be willfully ignorant. I don't suspect that's the case, but I've been wrong once or twice in the past.

 

[notposting]

I've not once ever heard any negative opinion of TC on AWD Subaru's - especially on the WRX and WRX STi models - but because of how much I foam at the mouth over those cars, I could be willfully ignorant. I don't suspect that's the case, but I've been wrong once or twice in the past.

The Subaru's may be different -- have generally only heard good things about them. However, looking online in general shows a lot of angry old farts like me who hate this newfangled shit

 

[desy]

I could easily live without ABS, I find traction control useful

 

[destrekor]

The Subaru's may be different -- have generally only heard good things about them. However, looking online in general shows a lot of angry old farts like me who hate this newfangled shit

Don't worry - I know a few younger folks that, for example, dislike the Nissan GT-R due to it's always-on TC.
"it hurts straight-line and launch potential" ... yeah, k... neither of which matter in anything other than drag racing, and you don't get a GT-R for drag racing. :\

 

[smackababy]

I am confused as to exactly what you guys arguing against ABS thinks it does. ABS generally doesn't engage unless you are going to lock the wheels, at which point, not having ABS will cause you to loose a large amount of control of your car. Unless you think you can realistically apply the exact pressure required to not cause the wheels to lock on every surface, ABS is required. And let's be honest, none of you fit that requirement.

 

[NutBucket]

ABS is great at allowing one to maintain control. But it generally increases stopping distances.

 

[JCH13]

I would take an "antique" over these pieces of shit with TC and ABS. Pure garbage.

That's because you're an idiot

Seriously though, if it was banned in F1 I want it on my car.

We can disable TC and VSC on our newer car, but not ABS, unfortunately.

PS: what car did you get?

You can disable ABS. Unplug the power cable to the ABS pump. Or remove the ABS computer (if so equipped).

 

[JCH13]

--

 

[fstime]

I prefer the type of TC that actually reduces engine power over the simple type that only uses the brakes.

I believe stability control is what allows individual braking on one wheel to engage. It is actually quite nice since it will save you while you are already in a turn as it applies braking force to one wheel to prevent a wipe out.

So I would say having both is important. The obvious solution is just to take turns very slow in wet conditions.

 

[smackababy]

ABS is great at allowing one to maintain control. But it generally increases stopping distances.

It does increase stopping distance, yes. However, in the event of needing to make an emergency stop in conditions with slippery roads, it is much favorable to be able to control the direction of your car than to just be sliding where ever the momentum takes you.

 

[Vdubchaos]

Whenever you start talking Snow/winter driving one has to consider 2 things.

a) Tires
b) Weight

Grip is the most important (even over AWD). I would take FWD or even RWD car with Snow tire over AWD car with all seasons ANY Day of the week and twice on sunday. Invest into a set of snow tires and your problems will go away. You will also increase the safety of your vehicle 10 fold as well as extend the life of your regular tires.

As for weight, most people think SUV or AWD = must in the snow. When the reality is much different. AWD enables you to start off easier but it can be very dangerous when it comes to control (especially with unskilled driver). The most important thing, it adds weight and most SUVs or even cars with AWD will take longer distance to stop than a sedan or equivalent car with FWD for example.

99.999% of the time simple change of tires to snow will address most people snow concerns.

It does increase stopping distance, yes. However, in the event of needing to make an emergency stop in conditions with slippery roads, it is much favorable to be able to control the direction of your car than to just be sliding where ever the momentum takes you.

If you know what you are doing, you can control you car without ABS. Problem is, most people don't and that's where ABS came into a picture.

Personally I prefer no ABS. Heck I HATE ABS. However I still want my wife's car to have it hehe.

 

[LTC8K6]

I believe stability control is what allows individual braking on one wheel to engage. It is actually quite nice since it will save you while you are already in a turn as it applies braking force to one wheel to prevent a wipe out.

So I would say having both is important. The obvious solution is just to take turns very slow in wet conditions.

IIRC, brake based TC was common well before ESC.

Buick's Max Trac system, which reduced engine power, came out in 1971.

http://www.buick-riviera.com/maxtrac.html

Would never have guessed such an electronic TC system was even thought of then. :biggrin:

 

[iamwiz82]

IIRC, brake based TC was common well before ESC.

Buick's Max Trac system, which reduced engine power, came out in 1971.

http://www.buick-riviera.com/maxtrac.html

Would never have guessed such an electronic TC system was even thought of then. :biggrin:

That is pretty fascinating. It's amazing the technology that was available before microprocessors (or early on in their history).

 

[NutBucket]

I can brainstorm a fairly simplistic circuit that could do it sans microprocessors. Certainly an interesting idea at the time.

 

[desy]

There are lots of situations in winter driving, I would rather be out of control and stop sooner than in control and later. Just so happens I can't make an avoidance maneuver 'parked cars on one side steady traffic stream tother' and will rear end that car in front of me if I don't stop. I may fishtail a bit but I can feather the brakes to my own satisfaction.
ABS is for people who can't drive, I'd rather have the options

 

[LTC8K6]

There are lots of situations in winter driving, I would rather be out of control and stop sooner than in control and later. Just so happens I can't make an avoidance maneuver 'parked cars on one side steady traffic stream tother' and will rear end that car in front of me if I don't stop. I may fishtail a bit but I can feather the brakes to my own satisfaction.
ABS is for people who can't drive, I'd rather have the options

I think this has been discussed here before. Since ESC is mandatory, ABS is as well. I don't think you can have ESC without ABS.

NHTSA has petitioned for mandatory ABS on motorcycles, claiming a large reduction in crashes with ABS.