FX vs 9800

[SickBeast]

it's amazing the flame wars that videocards can stir up.

i guess i'll fuel the fire a bit by saying that ati is dominating the entire videocard industry right now from top to bottom.

low end: r9200 beats fx5200
mid range: r9500 beats gf4ti series, and probably fx5600
high end: r9800 beats fx5800 ultra
laptop: r9600 beats fx5600

not only that, but the image quality is much better on ati cards.

 

[touchmyichi]

I completely agree sick beast. I seriously don't see any reason to pick not pick a 9800 pro over a geforce fx. It's more quiet, powerful, and has excellent picture quality. I think the only reason why people want to still use Nvidia is the simplicity of the drivers. Which is a valid reason. ATI's drivers are definently improving though. They need to integrate the control panel and the driver into one install, its kind of absurd.

 

[oldfart]

it's amazing the flame wars that videocards can stir up

That and Intel/AMD
Just dont get people started on Sony Vs NEC Floppy drives! That gets VERY UGLY! :frown:

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
it's amazing the flame wars that videocards can stir up.

i guess i'll fuel the fire a bit by saying that ati is dominating the entire videocard industry right now from top to bottom.

low end: r9200 beats fx5200
mid range: r9500 beats gf4ti series, and probably fx5600
high end: r9800 beats fx5800 ultra
laptop: r9600 beats fx5600

not only that, but the image quality is much better on ati cards.

I guess you need a bigger stick to stir the pot or some more fuel to throw on the fire. Your illustration of market dominance certainly hasn't helped ATi's bottom line in Q1 (8 million in losses, 2 million from operations), and it certainly hasn't helped their market share either (33% nvidia to ATi's 21% or 31% nvidia to ATi's 19% depending on which source). It also hasn't done anything to prevent nVidia from further positioning themselves as the market leader, as noted by recent deals with IBM and EA Games.

The reality is that ATi is a struggling firm looking to cut costs after failing to achieve any real market penetration despite their claim to the "performance crown". R&D cuts, R400's delay, as well as a reliance on TSMC as their main foundry spells troubled times ahead for ATi. On the other hand, nVidia's impending NV35 launch, DX9 mainstream part (FX5200), and EA and IBM deals bode well for the "struggling" firm. ATi's not gonna go away, but they certainly look more and more like the AMD of the GPU industry.

Chiz

 

[nRollo]

Touchmychi:
"I completely agree sick beast. I seriously don't see any reason to pick not pick a 9800 pro over a geforce fx."
How about this one? They don't like wavey lines rolling through their desktop?
42 threads, over 700 posts on the topic

Sickbeast:
ATIs don't necessarily "beat" their nvidia counterparts, depends on what you want to do.

"not only that, but the image quality is much better on ati cards. "
Since the GF4, that is a debatable point. I've had two GF4s and their IQ is excellent. ATI has always had nice IQ, but the GF2 days are behind nVidia as well.


Chizow:
It's amazing how so many want to proclaim the death of the only profitable company in the gaming gpu industry, isn't it?

 

[Rogozhin]

I am going to purchase a fx when i recieve my tax return. I like to try new cards when they become available (been doing this for 17 years now, procured quite a collection!).

My wife allows this little expenditure every year! So when I recieve it I will post my impressions of it compared to my 9700.

The wavey line issue is linked to the card being connected directly to the PS, and the only other card on the market that requires this is the fx and they are so few in number that this problem wouldn't even be noticed.

I believe that it's a dirty powerline issue (plus shoddy grounding, or no grounding through the circuit).

Rogo

 

[Rogozhin]

I wonder how many users have their systems plugged into a two prong outlet using a 3 to 2 prong adapter? The other factor is dirty power, the sharing of a circuit with either a TV, microwave, refer, or any other large appliance. This causes interference in line and can cause voltage spikes as well as interference.

I use a dedicated powerline conditioner behind a good powerstrip to both condition the inline voltage and to protect the system from voltage spikes.

Here are the specs (it also protects my audiophile grade home theatre that I run from the computer).

"The Power Pack II features the same advanced patented industrial-grade non-resonant filter technology as the more expensive Power Wedges in a compact, trapezoid-shaped metal case.

Power Pack II offers six high current outlets in two independently filtered groups, including four analog and two digital outlets. The analog and digital outlets are filtered separately to insure digital noise does not distort analog components - and vice versa. Power Pack II features spec-grade AC receptacles, high-grade teflon-insulated internal wiring, and offers power surge protection with both super-fast acting MOV and 15 amp circuit breaker. Power cord is detachable for easy upgrading.

Originally designed for budget high-end audio systems, Power Pack II also improves the performance of video and computer systems."

Here is the link.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=PWPACKII&product_name=Power Pack II

Rogo

 

[KH85]

reply thanks guys....

looks to me as the 9800 won

i am thinking of upgrading to a 9800 BUT i have a 9700 at the moment so i dont see much point!

 

[Acanthus]

how many DX9 games do you all own? ya know the api the cards were optimised for? right. shut up.

compare them when a geforce 3 cant run games that are out. Until then, squabbling over 100+ fps on cards is stupid.

 

[nRollo]

Rogo:
1. !!!!! you are not a philosophy student?!?!

2. I'd buy your line of reasoning on the power issue, and had considered it myself, except:
A. I used a V5 in the same computer with no line, and that plugged in as well
B. I got the lines on my Trinitron, not on my Nokia

 

[Rogozhin]

1. Then that is strange-I didn't know the V5 used external power source.

2. No I'm not a philosophy student-I own a coffee house. But I did study philosophy as well as Russian in college.

3. The Rolling lines I don't think I've seen. Only on one game maybe, but I'm not 100% sure that it's not my crumby monitor. I did install my DVI to VGA adapter and the faint shimmer on FB @ 1280x960 dissipated. Screen in 2d seems sharper with the DVI too? Maybe placebo but how the hell can you tell


rogo

 

[Rogozhin]

Acanthus

Try playing Splinter cell with highest graphics settings and 16x, 8x AF on anything but an FX or 9700-oh wait- you can't because your fps are 2!

Rogo

 

[nRollo]

"Then that is strange-I didn't know the V5 used external power source."

V5 preview reference to external power connector
"As you probably already know, it draws its power from the +5V power rail of your power supply courtesy of the 4-pin power connector present on the board."

 

[nRollo]

Acanthus:
"right. shut up.
compare them when a geforce 3 cant run games that are out. Until then, squabbling over 100+ fps on cards is stupid"

Isn't Doom3 a DX 9 game and due out by summer?

Also, a GF3 is pretty feeble by todays standards. I doubt it can even run new games smoothly at a decent resolution.
Yippie skips! 49fps at 10X7! We're back in Voodoo 3 era!

 

[touchmyichi]

Rollo, Doom 3 is a direct x 8 game. It will be a long long time until we see direct x 9 games, we are just starting to see true direct x 8 games. Geforce 3 is still an excellent card. Games like doom 3 are optimized to play well on it.

 

[nRollo]

"Geforce 3 is still an excellent card. Games like doom 3 are optimized to play well on it. "

I'll buy Doom 3 not having any DX9, I wasn't sure about that. I've never touted DX9 as the deciding factor on a VGA purchase.

The GF3 isn't an "excellent" card by todays standards, it's 2 generations old. I don't know what your defintion of "play well" is, but I'm guessing Doom 3 will not "play well" on a GF3 when the games that have been coming out in the last 6 mos already do not.

 

[Zen0ps]

I just could not STAND the BIG GRAY lines going up and down my screen

Sounds like EMI (electromagnetic interference) by any chance do you have a lot of harddrives or a plastic case?

I hope you have a better time with the NV30, but I doubt it. Many ram manufactuers have stated that the current technology used in the NV30 (DDR2 ram) is for the most part totally unstable. This is one of the main reasons why Intel and AMD are not considering using it as main memory until at least next year. There are plenty of visual static/checkerboard/and entire rendering errors with the NV30, which might also force Nvidia to use regular DDR in the NV35. Grey bars would be appealing by comparison to some of the errors that popup with the NV30 (including total lockups due to memory errors - but not the infinite loop)

There is no question to even Nvidia fans, the NV30 is a poorly made product. Nvidia fans should bury it and put their hopes on the NV35 which has a chance of being a decent board.

There is no delay on the R400, there was never a timeline specified for it in the first place. ATi might be slowing new product announcements because the current crop of 9700/9800's are much better than expected, so there is no need to introduce anything new.

 

[nRollo]

"There is no question to even Nvidia fans, the NV30 is a poorly made product. Nvidia fans should bury it and put their hopes on the NV35 which has a chance of being a decent board."

Well, I'm sure having trouble getting someone to part with one ZenOps. I've offered this:

"Audigy Gamer, Orange PCI Firewire controller, Diamond Monster2 V2 sli, 16MB Banshee, 4X4X24 CDRW, 9700Pro + $50. Also these games:Heavy Metal FaKK2, Giants, and Deus EX."

and no one will give me one????? That's a fair amount of stuff on top of a VGA that many consider superior to an FX Ultra, and I get no reply at all.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Zen0ps
Sounds like EMI (electromagnetic interference) by any chance do you have a lot of harddrives or a plastic case?

The scrolling lines issue isn't confined to cards with the R300 core, it afflicts other ATi products as well. Sounds like poor IC shielding on ATi products considering the problem can't be replicated on identical set-ups using non-ATi cards.

I hope you have a better time with the NV30, but I doubt it. Many ram manufactuers have stated that the current technology used in the NV30 (DDR2 ram) is for the most part totally unstable. This is one of the main reasons why Intel and AMD are not considering using it as main memory until at least next year. There are plenty of visual static/checkerboard/and entire rendering errors with the NV30, which might also force Nvidia to use regular DDR in the NV35. Grey bars would be appealing by comparison to some of the errors that popup with the NV30 (including total lockups due to memory errors - but not the infinite loop)

Interesting, I've never seen any reports to that effect. Got any links? DDR2 isn't any different from DDR-I in the way it operates, it just operates at higher frequencies. There have been reports that DDR2 and a 256-bit bus were not implemented on the NV30 due to the complexity of the 8x32-bit memory crossbar architecture required, so nVidia settled (poor decision in hindsight) on a 4x32-bit configuration and DDR2 on the NV30. DDR2 won't be adopted on mainboards until 2004 for the simple reason that the cost of DDR2 coupled with its low yields/supply (Samsung just announced DDR2 production) outweigh its marginal performance benefit.

There is no question to even Nvidia fans, the NV30 is a poorly made product. Nvidia fans should bury it and put their hopes on the NV35 which has a chance of being a decent board.

LoL, poorly made product? Its by far the most complicated consumer GPU AIB on the market. 125 million transistors on a 130nm process and 12-layer PCB capable of handling DDR2 memory operating frequencies. The only negative is the noise level, which is a direct by-product of its operating temperature, which is caused by its power consumption, which is caused by nVidia's choice of DDR2. Don't worry about NV35, there's no doubt it'll be the fastest performing GPU when it hits the market, even if nVidia chooses not to implement DDR2 and is unable to clock it to 5800 Ultra speeds. The NV30 on a 256-bit bus and DDR-I would've outperformed the R300; NV35 will have a 256-bit bus, any improvements beyond that will just be gravy.

There is no delay on the R400, there was never a timeline specified for it in the first place. ATi might be slowing new product announcements because the current crop of 9700/9800's are much better than expected, so there is no need to introduce anything new.

Really? I guess you weren't reading earlier reports of R400 being introduced at the end of Q3 early Q4 (which would be inline with their target 12-month product cycle)? These were statements made by ATi execs. to stockholders and analysts btw. Shortly afterwards, Orton and other execs. began dropping hints that ATi would be lengthening its product cycle in an attempt to manage expectations. The confirmation came recently that ATi would be shifting to a 24-month product cycle with 6-month refreshes. Couple that with the announcement they would be cutting R&D costs and the reports of R400 being delayed until Q1-Q2 2004, and the R400 is most certainly being delayed. Most of this info is in that BusinessWeek article btw.

The R300 core may be a critical success when it comes to performance, but it certainly isn't helping ATi's bottom line or their market position. Unfortunately for ATi, they haven't been able to leverage the R300's success into the profitable OEM and sub-$150 AIB markets. Instead, they have to settle on selling expensive 110 million 150nm cores in the $150-$200 market, which eats into any margins seen from the 9700pro high-end market. On the other hand, nVidia has been making a market-killing with their GF4 Ti4200, which outsold every AIB in the $100+ market. Factor in the massive write-downs seen on R200 cores (rebadged and sold for less as value parts), and you'll see why ATi was in the red in Q1 ($2 million operating loss).

Rollo, yes, I do find it humorous that the most vocal in the ATi camp have been ringing nVidia's death knell since November. We're now in April and not much has changed. Their wishful thinking is probably a result of nVidia's successful attempts at assimilating or eradicating their home team GPU company (SGI, 3Dfx, S3, PowerVR/STMicro etc.). It seems many in the pro-ATi camp are the long-suffering downtrodden ATi faithful or the outcast orphans of long forgotten firms who finally have their chance to spit their venom at the company they've grown to hate. I guess that's what happens when you mix emotions with computer hardware.

Chiz

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Have you not been told off yet? Are you still being stupid? And on top of that are we even to trust that you've truly offered all of this or that you are just telling lies to try and convince readers otherwise? Either way I've eplained why noone will trade to you and the reasons are obvious, stop pretending that you are shocked. I wouldn't willingly shell over a product I'd spend a hard earned $400 on for a bunch of potential crap from a stranger that appears to be somewhat disgruntled.

This thread was started asking which would be better. Seems to me that KHGamez simply wants to know what the best gaming card he can get for his money is, and its turned into a battle of which company is doing its job better, which is BS OT crap and the thread should be locked becaues of it.

My recomendation is that if your system is relatively quiet the 9800 Pro hands down. If your system is already loud and/or you do not care about noise and you're willing to explore/experiment/you're a die hard nVidia user, then the 5800 Ultra is a perfectly reasonable solution given those circumstances. Otherwise ATI's got it won whether the market has realized it yet or not, nVidia still has to play comeback, given their past success and dominating tendencies, I don't doubt that they will come back.

 

[SunnyD]

Misinformation at it's finest...

Doom III utilizes an OpenGL 3D Rendering path, not DirectX 8, or DirectX 9. The only features it MIGHT use from DirectX anything is the DirectPlay (multiplayer-doubtful) or the DirectMedia (audio-again doubtful).

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Misinformation at it's finest...

Doom III utilizes an OpenGL 3D Rendering path, not DirectX 8, or DirectX 9. The only features it MIGHT use from DirectX anything is the DirectPlay (multiplayer-doubtful) or the DirectMedia (audio-again doubtful).

Here's a rip from one of Ben's Posts in a DoomIII thread, which explains it perfectly:

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Why all the discussion about DirectX.. Did Carmack suddenly get sick and switch APIs? OpenGL is far superior, and Carmack knows it, hence why he is a OpenGL exclusive programmer. (Although he might be using DirectSound for the audio portion of the game..)

At this particular moment OpenGL is quite inferior to DirectX. Of course, with OpenGL you have vendor specific extension support which has allowed it to remain viable, but until the release of OpenGL 2.0 DX9 has a very clear advantage(so does DX8 for that matter). He uses OpenGL at this point because it is cross platform- the main reason and he has been using it all along. People talk about DX versions as they are an easy way to discuss a feature set of a video card or a class of video card. Saying an OpenGL 1.3 board with a list of fifty different vendor specific extensions is a lot more confusing then saying DX8

Saying a game is OpenGL-based or DirectX 9 based is just making a distinction between feature-sets at the time. You could say Doom3 is a DX8 game with some DX9 features based on its feature set, or if you wanted to get technical you could do as Ben mentions and list out the 50 different vendor specific extensions for the same feature set.

Chiz

 

[nRollo]

"It seems many in the pro-ATi camp are the long-suffering downtrodden ATi faithful or the outcast orphans of long forgotten firms who finally have their chance to spit their venom at the company they've grown to hate. I guess that's what happens when you mix emotions with computer hardware"
LOL- I couldn't have said it better myself.
I might have added I think a lot of these "nVidia is through" naysayers are the ex-3dfx faithful, who are ESPECIALLY bitter after bleating, "The V5 will be the card to have to play Duke Nuke'm Forever!" and "The V5 6K will stomp your cheap GF2s" for a year or two only to watch nVidia buy 3dfx when they went bankrupt trying to convince us all low res, low fps FSAA was the way to go.

 

[nRollo]

"Have you not been told off yet? Are you still being stupid?"
Oh no, please don['t "tell me off" or call me "stupid" BunnyFoofoo. That would hurt my feelings....

" And on top of that are we even to trust that you've truly offered all of this or that you are just telling lies to try and convince readers otherwise?"
Err, why would I lie, wise one? Here's the post:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=45&threadid=1019789&highlight_key=y&keyword1=FX&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=


"Either way I've eplained why noone will trade to you and the reasons are obvious, stop pretending that you are shocked. I wouldn't willingly shell over a product I'd spend a hard earned $400 on for a bunch of potential crap from a stranger that appears to be somewhat disgruntled"
Like I said:
1. A used FX Ultra isn't worth $400, I can buy a new one for that at newegg.com
2. I said I'd ship first
3. Do you buy anything on the forums Bunny? They always make you send the money first, how do you know they'll send the merchandise?

4. That is a fair deal: 1. The cheapest I've seen a retail ATI 9700 is $265. 2. $50 is usually worth $50. 3. An Audigy Gamer Retail is worth $40 4. I'd think a firewire controller, 12MB SLI, 16MB Banshee, and a 4X4X24CDRW would be worth $30 for the lot? 5. 3 decent games should be worth $15
Can you dispute any of these figures wise BunnyFoofoo? If not, that is ~$400 worth of stuff.

BTW Bunny: While you sit there saying "Rollo, your deal STINKS, a FX is worth FAR more than that pile of junk" did you ever consider I paid $390 of MY "hard earned money" for the 9700Pro just a few months ago? And that I'm taking as much risk as the guy with the FX Ultra, perhaps more so, because there are a LOT of people who don't even want a FX due to the noise and heat issues? Or do you just like to make snide little comments to me and try to screw up my trade?

I'd be interested to know what kind of rig YOU have BunnyFoofoo that you call my ATI 9700Pro, Audigy Gamer, and Smart n Friendly CDRW "a bunch of crap" ?

Consider this: What do you think an FX Ultra is going to be worth in May, with the nV35 coming out in June, and the hatred the card has generated in the press? Like I said, after more people have these cards (Ultras) and some decide they don't like the noise and can no longer return it, I should be able to make this trade pretty easily. (especially when you consider most of the people here think the card I'm trading is superior to the one I'm trading for)

Sunny D:
"Misinformation at it's finest..."
Give it a rest, I forgot Doom3 was going to be OpenGL. Big deal, I forgot. That's a lot less misinformation than out and out lieing about how "the 9700 pro dominates all benchmarks".

 

[SunnyD]

Rollo - give it a rest man, and I mean that in the sincerest and friendliest of terms here. By some of your postings, I'm getting confused as to whether you're trying to defend NVIDIA or ATi here. Either way, calm down, let the respective companies PR units handle what you're trying to do here. All you're doing is heading for an early heart-attack debating in this style.

My suggestion to all go as to what I said a few days ago... if all you're interested in is raw numbers, then take a look across the internet at all of the various reviews from places like Anandtech, HardOCP, Tom's Hardware, OCWorkbench, AMDmb, etc., and then average them out yourself. Then look at each card's features and capabilities and requirements, and pick what's best for YOU.

The one thing about benchmarks is that you can argue them until you turn blue, because one site is going to have setup X, and one will use setup Y, and yet another will use setup Z, all based on that particular site's best reference platform, and they're all different. Noone is going to get the same bench results, and noone is even going to use the same testbed or benchmarks period. Arguing over the numbers these sites post is just plain stupid.

Take that for what you will. That's my last bi-lateral post on the topic. From here on, I'm going going to watch this post because I need a good chuckle every day.

-D

PS: Chiz, I don't think Ben ever did any 3D graphics programming in his lifetime, otherwise he would have never said anything like OpenGL being inferior to DirectX -- seeing as DirectX is the entire API for starters. OpenGL versus Direct3D, vendor specific extensions are nice, but what nobody ever seems to realize is that there are a set of "ARB" extensions - which are official, and vendor NEUTRAL. Everything you can do in Direct3D you can do in OpenGL, not to mention that you can do more in OpenGL.