G80 indepth IQ reiew

[josh6079]

BFG10K is trying to compare mipmapped texturing and filtering to nonmipmapped texturing and filtering.

Where?

In your opinion, why is the G80's AF better than the NV30's?

 

[BFG10K]

Because you are comparing apples to oranges bfg10k. mipmapping works differently to no mipmapping at all and AF filtering using mipmaps is based on filtering the mipmaps to find the closest possible value to that required and then using that value.

Another total and utter irrelevant tangent designed to detract how comically wrong your are.

No, Josh. BFG10K is trying to compare mipmapped texturing and filtering to nonmipmapped texturing and filtering.

What the hell are you talking about?

You claimed the NV30's AF is better because it has the yellow ring so answer the question: is 8xAF better than 16xAF because 8xAF has the yellow ring but 16xAF doesn't?


ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

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ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION


Answer the question. Your irrelevant rhetoric, total dodging of issues and facts and weaseling is really quite tiresome.


ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION


Answer the question: is 8xAF better than 16xAF because 8xAF has the yellow ring but 16xAF doesn't?


ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION

ANSWER THE QUESTION


Is 8xAF better than 16xAF because 8xAF has the yellow ring but 16xAF doesn't?

 

[RobertR1]

BFG,

Your interaction with Gregy should give you a slight hint as why wonder boy was banned over at B3D......

 

[Gstanfor]

BFG10K, given that you believe that fewer color transitions and less color blending displayed in the AF test leads to a "more perfect" result (disregarding shape for the moment), do you then accept that (by your definition) nv4x/g7x therefore have the most perfect AF rendering we have yet seen (especially since you apparently like r4xx's AF rendering and it has more blending in the color transitions)?

G71
R4xx

ANSWER THE QUESTION! (LOL!)

 

[BFG10K]

BFG10K, given that you believe that fewer color transitions and less color blending displayed in the AF test leads to a "more perfect" result (disregarding shape for the moment), do you then accept that (by your definition) nv4x/g7x therefore have the most perfect AF rendering we have yet seen (especially since you apparently like r4xx's AF rendering and it has more blending in the color transitions)?

Wow. Just...wow. Words fail me. You think those two shots have less colour rings than the G80?

I see I'm going to have to provide a pre-school explanation for you.

See those pretty little colours Greggy? Let's count them, out loud and together while clapping our hands. Here we go!

G71: Red, Green, Blue, Purple, Blue, Yellow, Red = 7 colours.
R420: Red, Green, Blue, Purple, Blue, Yellow, Red = 7 colours.
G80: Red, Green, Blue, Purple, Blue = 5 colours.

You see that Greggy? G80 has 5 colours which is less than 7 on the R420/G71.

Count them on your fingers if you like. You see that Greggy? With 7 fingers you have more sticking in the air than with 5. Yay!

Give yourself a pat on the back, you did so well with such a difficult task Greggy. If you're good Barney might visit later and show you what 2+2 is. Isn't that exciting?

And now it's nap time for you as it looks like you've tired yourself out from that difficult task. Here, have a cookie and some apple juice. :roll:

 

[Gstanfor]

No, bfg10k, answer what I asked. According to you, less miprings and purer colors (plus a rounder shape which we will ignore for nv4x/g7x/r4xx) = better AF.

By those standards nv4x/g7x must surely offer the best AF of all - either that or you are flat out wrong! (Guess which one I think is true)...

 

[BFG10K]

Click.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Click.

Yes, I know you are...

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

:laugh: This thread is gold material... I nominate this video thread of the year! Oh man, how can someone be so dumb.. Jesus!

No, bfg10k, answer what I asked. According to you, less miprings and purer colors (plus a rounder shape which we will ignore for nv4x/g7x/r4xx) = better AF.

By those standards nv4x/g7x must surely offer the best AF of all - either that or you are flat out wrong! (Guess which one I think is true)...

NONE OF THEM! Because as BFG10K has been trying to show you, G80 HAS LESS RINGS THAN BOTH! Less rings = BETTER QUALITY

I cant believe someone could be this dumb, either youre trolling or I have lost all my hope for humanity

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Click.

He is doing this on purpose at this point. ("Lets ignore shape for the moment."???) Not at first of course because he truly believed he was right. But now that data has been presented, he will eel his way slowly to pretend he was joking all along. BFG, just PM a mod and get this troublestarter outta here permanently. He was just banned for a week, and complaints about him this soon might land him a longer vacation.

 

[GundamSonicZeroX]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Click.

He is doing this on purpose at this point. ("Lets ignore shape for the moment."???) Not at first of course because he truly believed he was right. But now that data has been presented, he will eel his way slowly to pretend he was joking all along. BFG, just PM a mod and get this troublestarter outta here permanently. He was just banned for a week, and complaints about him this soon might land him a longer vacation.

I think it's funny that people here refer to bans and kicks as 'vacations'. :laugh:

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: GundamSonicZeroX

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Click.

He is doing this on purpose at this point. ("Lets ignore shape for the moment."???) Not at first of course because he truly believed he was right. But now that data has been presented, he will eel his way slowly to pretend he was joking all along. BFG, just PM a mod and get this troublestarter outta here permanently. He was just banned for a week, and complaints about him this soon might land him a longer vacation.

I think it's funny that people here refer to bans and kicks as 'vacations'. :laugh:

Hehe, I think it was a mod way back that coined that. Kicks are called vacations, and bans are called bans. Dunno why.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Another potentially highly informative thread obfuscated needlessly.

Don't feed the trolls! It makes 'em grow!

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
No, bfg10k, answer what I asked. According to you, less miprings and purer colors (plus a rounder shape which we will ignore for nv4x/g7x/r4xx) = better AF.

By those standards nv4x/g7x must surely offer the best AF of all - either that or you are flat out wrong! (Guess which one I think is true)...

G80 has less rings, thus nv4x/g7x do not offer the best.
Can we say durr durr durr?

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
BFG10K, given that you believe that fewer color transitions and less color blending displayed in the AF test leads to a "more perfect" result (disregarding shape for the moment), do you then accept that (by your definition) nv4x/g7x therefore have the most perfect AF rendering we have yet seen (especially since you apparently like r4xx's AF rendering and it has more blending in the color transitions)?

G71
R4xx

Click

ANSWER THE QUESTION! (LOL!)

Click

 

[CP5670]

This is the best thread I've seen here in a while. :laugh:

 

[Gstanfor]

G80 has less mip rings?!? You have be kidding me!

The numer of miprings is only half the equation though - its the blending between the rings and within them that truly determines AF quality, and g80's mip-blending is exquisite. On nv4x/g7x and r4xx the blending is all but non existant.

It's the same principle as why brilinear/trylinear filtering looks worse than real trilear filtering - the blending/transitions aren't as smooth (only with AF the blending/transitions occur across multiple mip maps).

Bilinear
Trilinear
Brilinear
from here

 

[BFG10K]

G80 has less mip rings?!? You have be kidding me!

To someone who can't count such an idea must be difficult to accept. Sorry, I've done all I can for you. You're going to have to work through this difficult issue on your own.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Another potentially highly informative thread obfuscated needlessly.

Don't feed the trolls! It makes 'em grow!

I think I still have that quoted in my sig

I like how a lot of people chime in how Gstanfor knows nothing. I'm willing to bet that 99% of the people in here that have said that he knows nothing know even less than him (And for that matter far less than BFG).

Gstanfor, I think you are just confused. NV3x had the best AF at that time by far. While Nvidia took HUGE steps back ATI gradually progressed their AF algorithms to the point where it was better. When people say that "We are finally back at NV3x quality" they mean as far as Nvidia goes not including ATI. ATI has been around that point for a while, Nvidia just now managed to improve their AF (The first real improvement from NV3x).

Man, its been far to long since I have been in the Video forum

-Kevin

(BTW: Can someone tell me what major would go indepth into AF and AA algorithms? Would that be covered in CE or would that be another major?)

 

[Gstanfor]

I'm not confused at all. You don't need to tell me nvidia's AF quality has been bad (compared to what it was before) with nv4x/g7x.

I was one of the first to express my disappointment with nvidia's decision when nv40 launched. R5xx is the only decent AF we have ever seen from ATi, nv3x can best all but G80.

Thats what I've said in this thread right the way through despite the best efforts of the know-nothings to derail me.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I'm not confused at all. You don't need to tell me nvidia's AF quality has been bad (compared to what it was before) with nv4x/g7x.

I was one of the first to express my disappointment with nvidia's decision when nv40 launched. R5xx is the only decent AF we have ever seen from ATi, nv3x can best all but G80.

Thats what I've said in this thread right the way through despite the best efforts of the know-nothings to derail me.

Ok man, I honestly cannot go as in depth in AF algorithms as BFG but I'll do my best. However, ATI's R5xx was still better than the NV3x. Remember they had what 4 years to improve it?

AF Modes in Article Compared

Ok bringing up both images side by side here is what I can see

1. The MIP rings on the R580 extend to the edge, in the upper left quadrant, of the second black quarter of a circle.

1. The NV30 extends beyond the second black quarter beginning into the white quarter in the same quadrant. This indicates that the AF is doing a better job at getting rid of the mip levels.

1. Both are clearly angle dependent in a loose sense of the word. While NV3x is touted as being angle independent we can see that while it is approaching a circle, it is still flaring out on the edges as well as the clover shape. ATI is much closer to angle independence with the exception of the outer mip ring

1. ATI's miprings are MUCH more condensed thereby taking up a much smaller area. Essentially the same thing I stated in my first point

Now having read the entire thread, correct me if I am wrong, but from what I remember the less colors the better. The closer the mip rings get to the black circle in the center the closer to perfect it becomes. Therefore eventually mip rings will disappear as their is no need for filter on that level. (I always think of it as a black hole)

Gstan I know you mentioned something at one point about the blending of the mip levels. The less mip rings you have the less blending/filtering needs to be done. Having said that the blending on the ATI card is slightly better in my mind than the Nvidia card; but it is very slight. Both cards are doing about the same job as far as Trilinear filtering goes.

-Kevin

(Additionally, if you look really closely you can see the blue in the R580 image get much lighter on the X and Y axes eventually giving way to just an even lighter blue. If the filtering were worse, then eventually that would fade into a yellow and then, IIRC, and orange(?))

 

[Gstanfor]

The less mipmap levels used, the more you force the card to work harder (and reduce rendering performance). Mipmaps exist for a reason you know. The card views the mipmaps as a stack and it looks through (or skewers if you like) the stack (according to distance) to find the values it needs.

The only way to get all the the miprings to disappear is to sample from the largest mipmap only (effectively performing the mipless filtering bfg10k brought up). As said above this will totally kill performance given that current texturing techniques implemented on gpu's depend heavily on mipmapping for performance.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
The less mipmap levels used, the more you force the card to work harder (and reduce rendering performance). Mipmaps exist for a reason you know. The card views the mipmaps as a stack and it looks through (or skewers if you like) the stack (according to distance) to find the values it needs.

The only way to get all the the miprings to disappear is to sample from the largest mipmap only (effectively performing the mipless filtering bfg10k brought up). As said above this will totally kill performance given that current texturing techniques implemented on gpu's depend heavily on mipmapping for performance.

Yes but slowly we are gaining the power and techniques which allow us to being to filter so well that mip rings begin to disappear.

The card may have to work harder, but since the hardware is optimized (particularly in the G80) the more intense calculations, while harder do not affect the end user as much.

Gradually as our AF algorithms improve and our cards get more powerful another mip ring will become imperceivable and the mip rings as a whole will shrink more towards the center.

You just said it yourself however. At some point in the future we will be able to sample from the outer mip ring which makes the inner rings all but disappear (Huge performance impact at this pint though).

-Kevin

 

[josh6079]

R5xx is the only decent AF we have ever seen from ATi, nv3x can best all but G80.

Again, why? In your opinion, why is the G80's AF better than the NV30's?

NV30's

G80's

R580's

The NV30's easily has the worst IQ out of those three AF modes. Only someone who can't count is disagreeing with that.

The only way to get all the the miprings to disappear is to sample from the largest mipmap only (effectively performing the mipless filtering bfg10k brought up). As said above this will totally kill performance given that current texturing techniques implemented on gpu's depend heavily on mipmapping for performance.

Now you're on to performance? We haven't even finished the image quality differentiating the AF modes. Instead of speculating "what might" happen concentrate on what *has* happened. NV30 came out with an AF mode that was the best looking for it's time, albeit useless, and was since then surpassed by both the R5 series and the G80. Get over it.

 

[BFG10K]

The less mipmap levels used, the more you force the card to work harder (and reduce rendering performance). Mipmaps exist for a reason you know. The card views the mipmaps as a stack and it looks through (or skewers if you like) the stack (according to distance) to find the values it needs.

What does any of this have to do with your false assertion that the yellow ring on the NV3x wheel makes it better than the R5xx?

Do you have a monkey typing randomly for you or something?

The only way to get all the the miprings to disappear is to sample from the largest mipmap only (effectively performing the mipless filtering bfg10k brought up). As said above this will totally kill performance given that current texturing techniques implemented on gpu's depend heavily on mipmapping for performance.

Again what does any of this have to do with your delusional claims about AF quality and likewise your inability to grasp that 5 is less than 7?

Why do you continue to post when your random comments are nothing more than diarrhea in text form?