G92 9800GTX and GTS

MarcVenice

Moderator Emeritus <br>
Apr 2, 2007
5,664
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Funny, if they are gonna cost 549-649 USD, and be twice as fast as a 8800ultra, the ultra should be going for roughly 280$, and the gts would have to go for 160$ or so Doesn't quite leave room for the lowerend products
 

Engraver

Senior member
Jun 5, 2007
812
0
0
GeForce 9800 GTX will be over two times faster than a GeForce 8800 Ultra in real world games and applcations.

That alone seems fishy to me. It may be a good card, but twice as fast a 8800 Ultra seems a bit exaggerated.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,560
8
0
Maybe they intended all along to let the 8800 series to be the midrange ports. Would sort of explain why the 8600 line suck so bad for gaming. I hope they offer the 8800s for cheap since it would offer alot of people a nice upgrade since 400 bucks is NOT midrange.


 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: Engraver
GeForce 9800 GTX will be over two times faster than a GeForce 8800 Ultra in real world games and applcations.

That alone seems fishy to me. It may be a good card, but twice as fast a 8800 Ultra seems a bit exaggerated.

The 8800 Ultra is not that fast of a card when you look at the kind of games that are out today and are coming. 2x 8800U is not that much, especially when an 8800U struggles at 1680x1050 in any DX10 game. I was hoping that, at least in DX10 games, the GeForce 9800 would be about 3x~ faster than the 8800 series.
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: manimal
Maybe they intended all along to let the 8800 series to be the midrange ports. Would sort of explain why the 8600 line suck so bad for gaming. I hope they offer the 8800s for cheap since it would offer alot of people a nice upgrade since 400 bucks is NOT midrange.

The 8800GTS 320MB is midrange, at around the $250-300 price point. Prices for cards range from about $60 to $600, and the GTS 320 is right in the middle of that. It is the "upper" range of midrange, but it is definately midrange.

As for the 8800 becoming a budget-midrange card... on a 90nm process as it is now, not a hope of that becoming true. The G80 die is estimated to be 480mm^2 in size, which is absolutely huge and it would simply not be possible to offer a chip that size at any price lower than where the GTS 320 is.

On a 65nm process, it is possible, but unlikely. 240mm^2 is still pretty big for a low-midrange card in the $100-200 price point. I can't see nVidia offering a card with a bigger die size than a 7900GTX at that low of a price... it's simply not economical, especially since nVidia can easily make a chip based on the (surely) more efficient G90 architecture, with higher clockspeeds but less shaders, and make a chip just as powerful as the 8800's, but at a much lower cost. nVidia has always made small, cheap cards for the 6600-7600-8600 series, and I can't see why a "9600" series would be any different.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,560
8
0
I agree with extelleron that these cards should be a little faster since we can expect the big new games to murder the current 8800s. If these are indeed coming out soon I wonder how long it will take for people to saturate the market with their 8800s trying to sell them before their value spins down.


 

chewietobbacca

Senior member
Jun 10, 2007
291
0
0
Check the dates!

Article is dated June 3rd. Way outdated.

Also, it's not even an article - its some user's comments!

I wouldn't trust this at all
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: chewietobbacca
Check the dates!

Article is dated June 3rd. Way outdated.

Also, it's not even an article - its some user's comments!

I wouldn't trust this at all

Well, most of the info makes sense.

nVidia has clearly skipped the 80nm process for the high-end parts, and the next step is 65nm. 55nm won't be ready for the Q4 2007 launch.

With G80 already at 690~ million transistors, G92 will almost definately be over 1 billion, even if it is split into two or more chips.

512-Bit interface is questionable... nVidia isn't really bandwidth starved on 384-Bit, and that's with GDDR3 memory. With high-end GDDR4, capable of nearly 3GHz clockspeeds, nVidia won't need 512-Bit.

1GB of memory makes sense if nVidia goes 512-Bit. If they stay 384-Bit, there's a good chance they will have 1.5GB of memory, or even stick to 768MB.

eDRAM is also very unlikely on a PC chip. To provide "free" AA, G92 would have to have a heck of a lot of eDRAM, which will become very costly. Getting free AA at a resolution like 640x480 would be easy, but who plays on that res and buys a GeForce 9800? eDRAM is highly unlikely, because you'd need so much of it to cover a 1920x1200 or 2560x1600 resolution.


 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,211
597
126
I'd expect the kind of performance jump of 6800 Ultra -> 7800 GTX.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Marketing speak. I bet we see a healthy increase in performance and the theoretical performance jump will probably be double. However real world will probably see what we saw going from a G70 to G80 in terms of performance. Or maybe they will deliver what they are claiming in real world applications.

 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
Hard to believe. Also, why would nVidia name their next flagship part the 9800?

I mean, that is quick. That would be back to the old 6 month cycle. I was expecting a 8900 part or some small evolution of the G8x. Wonder what AMD is up to.
 

sliderule

Member
May 13, 2007
75
0
0
Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Funny, if they are gonna cost 549-649 USD, and be twice as fast as a 8800ultra, the ultra should be going for roughly 280$, and the gts would have to go for 160$ or so Doesn't quite leave room for the lowerend products

I wish it worked that way, but it doesn't always. Some of the older 7900gtx's still cost quite a bit, even though the 8800 is better.

Also look at how intel releases faster chips, that actually cost less(in some cases) than the chips they're updating.
 

enz660hp

Senior member
Jun 19, 2006
242
0
0
here we go crysis! if it doesnt get delayed again, crysis should come out about a month before this thing...
 

chewietobbacca

Senior member
Jun 10, 2007
291
0
0
Except Nvidia has never skipped to a new nm process on the high end without testing it first on the mid-range and low-end

Also, the entire memory bandwidth and memory problem is questionable considering their current G80 architecture is what they are going to be building on. IT would be weird to suddenly revise it to 512-bit / 1 gig when 384/768 and its derivatives are working.
 

Piano Man

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2000
3,370
0
76
Originally posted by: Cheex
Originally posted by: Extelleron

The 8800GTS 320MB is midrange

I'm insulted...:|
Take it back!!

Don't worry, I'll never consider your 300 dollar card as midrange, in fact I don't consider any 300 dollar card as midrange.

There is no midrange anymore. The closest thing to a midrange card atm is the x1950xt 256mb, but its kind of a stretch.

The only thing holding me back from my new system build is the video card, because there really isn't any "bargain" card out there. $300 dollars is too pricey. I'm used to buying a $150-210 dollar card, unlocking, OCing it, and making it run like a 300 dollar card.

I'm a sad camper right now with video cards ><
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,501
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Marketing speak. I bet we see a healthy increase in performance and the theoretical performance jump will probably be double. However real world will probably see what we saw going from a G70 to G80 in terms of performance. Or maybe they will deliver what they are claiming in real world applications.

The 8800GTX/Ultra is 2-3x as fast as a 7800gtx and 2x as fast at least as a 7900gtx
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: Frackal
Originally posted by: Genx87
Marketing speak. I bet we see a healthy increase in performance and the theoretical performance jump will probably be double. However real world will probably see what we saw going from a G70 to G80 in terms of performance. Or maybe they will deliver what they are claiming in real world applications.

The 8800GTX/Ultra is 2-3x as fast as a 7800gtx and 2x as fast at least as a 7900gtx

Exactly what I was going to post.

There are two possible fields of thought on this, though.

The 8800 was a real diversion in design from Nvidia's previous GPUs, and this might account for the rare doubling of their previous top-end product. So, taking that into account, we can say that :

(A)- Nvidia, having already developed this new GPU design, will not be able to double performance again, rather this will be an incremental upgrade (ala 6800-7800)

or

(B)- Nvidia, now having learned a bunch from their first full redesign in some time, can implement a variety of huge improvements that will result in a 2x real-world improvement (ala TNT2 Ultra to Geforce GTS, or Radeon 8500 to 9700 Pro)
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: Cheex
Originally posted by: Extelleron

The 8800GTS 320MB is midrange

I'm insulted...:|
Take it back!!

If you look at the price ranges for GPUs.... from $60 to $600, $270~ is right in the middle, so technically, the 8800GTS 320 is midrange

In my opinion:

Below $100: Ultra-low end
$100-$150: Low-end
$150-$200: Lower Mid-range
$250-$300: Upper Mid-range
$350-$450: High-End
$500-$600: Ultra High-End

Overall, the 8800GTS 320MB is kind of a weird card. It's technically midrange, but really it's the same GPU as the "high-end" 8800GTS 640MB (which by extension is a hacked down version of the "ultra high-end" 8800GTX). I never understood why nVidia didn't release an 80nm, 64 shader part for the $250~ price range, rather than an extremely expensive, 90nm high-end GPU coupled with less memory than the card really needs. Memory doesn't cost much, so nVidia isn't saving much with the 320MB version. With a 480mm^2 GPU, nVidia can't be making much money selling an 8800GTS 320MB for $270~.

As for those that say 2-3x performance of G80 is not going to happen, I believe you are wrong here. My theory is that G90 will be around 2x, perhaps a bit less, the performance of G80 in DirectX 9, but closer to 3x faster in DX10. G80 is a first-generation DX10 part and I'm sure nVidia has learned more about DX10, and how developers are implementing it in games, since last year. With much more raw power AND optimizations, 3x the performance of G80 in DX10 is not that hard to imagine.

The real question is whether or not G90 will be a single die or multiple die. R700 is rumored to be multiple, and some have said G90 is as well. In my opinion, if nVidia is going for a card with approximately 2-3x the raw power of G80 (if the 1TFLOPs figure is true, G90 is actually around 3x more powerful than G80, in raw horsepower) than they need to have multiple die. For 3x the raw power, nVidia would need at LEAST 256 shaders, and they would still need to clock the shaders at well over 2000MHz. And, they would be stuck with the same old huge, expensive 480mm^2 chip they have now (with double the execution units, on a half-size process, G90 would be approximately the same size as G90). I can't see nVidia doing that.

However, if you have 2 die with, say, 160 shaders on each, then suddenly it becomes a lot more realistic. There are two die, of course, but they are smaller and the chips will have much better yields.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
Originally posted by: lopri
I'd expect the kind of performance jump of 6800 Ultra -> 7800 GTX.

That sounds about right to me. It may be "up to 2x" as fast in some cases, but it's usually a lot less than that, and I wouldn't expect a brand new architecture either, but more of a refresh with some tweaks and speed bump.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
If this is true, wow.

Would make it a nice time though to buy the 8800gtx/ultras just after they are released
 

wanderer27

Platinum Member
Aug 6, 2005
2,173
15
81
Originally posted by: Farmer
Hard to believe. Also, why would nVidia name their next flagship part the 9800?

I mean, that is quick. That would be back to the old 6 month cycle. I was expecting a 8900 part or some small evolution of the G8x. Wonder what AMD is up to.

With a new Architecture and process size, I would expect it to be 9800. A refresh I could see as being 8900.

6 Month cycle? Hasn't the 8800 been out for almost a year now? By the time this comes out it may be over a year . . . .

 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,560
8
0
You would think they would skip the 9800 number as well since it was, well, an ATI product name, it would be like starting a new car company and nameing the car the Corvair-G92,
 
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