Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

[crownjules]

I never got the impression that the Bolton's were that powerful. How do you figure that they are the second most powerful? I am firmly under the impression that they were a lesser lord and kinda still are. Harrenhal isn't exactly a catch. It's a giant, half melted castle that everyone hates. The North is also not under control. Before any of that Greatjon Umber was more important than Roose Bolton. I don't know what happened to that guy though. You then had the Karstarks and the Manderleys. He only seems powerful now because the Lannisters gave him a title for betraying the Starks at the red wedding.

Don't confuse a lord and his character with the strength of lands he holds. The Umber hold is the farthest north and therefore his lands aren't rich nor does he have a vast amount of people to draw on for his armies. We don't see him much because he's off leading armies elsewhere.

The Karstarks and the Boltons are close in power, but the edge is usually given to the Boltons. They were once known as the Bane of the North because they constantly rebelled and were known for killing a few Stark kings back in the day.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Don't confuse a lord and his character with the strength of lands he holds. The Umber hold is the farthest north and therefore his lands aren't rich nor does he have a vast amount of people to draw on for his armies. We don't see him much because he's off leading armies elsewhere.

The Karstarks and the Boltons are close in power, but the edge is usually given to the Boltons. They were once known as the Bane of the North because they constantly rebelled and were known for killing a few Stark kings back in the day.

Meh, the Manderly's had more money than the starks because they own the port that serves the north. The Boltons were feared because they were rumored to be batshit crazy, but they weren't the most powerful.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoBRto_8UII

 

[desura]

I've watched up to season 3. DOn't have HBO, don't want to disrespect the show with bit torrent...so I"m going to wait for the DVD release.

That said,

Spoiler

With the "red wedding" having ripped out the heart of the series, what happens now, exactly? How will it all end? All of the remaining kids are way too young. Bran at the conclusion of the series might be 14. Anya maybe 15. How is this thing supposed to end?

 

[momeNt]

derp. fix your spoiler tags derp it [ spoiler ] [/ spoiler ] no spaces.

Spoiler

see like this!

 

[smackababy]

I've watched up to season 3. DOn't have HBO, don't want to disrespect the show with bit torrent...so I"m going to wait for the DVD release.

That said,

Spoiler

With the "red wedding" having ripped out the heart of the series, what happens now, exactly? How will it all end? All of the remaining kids are way too young. Bran at the conclusion of the series might be 14. Anya maybe 15. How is this thing supposed to end?

I am not sure why this is tagged, as it happened last season and the rest is your speculation. The show itself, even though it focused heavily on the Starks, is not about the Starks, but the political climate in Westeros. The Starks had a huge impact in the first 3 seasons, and since there aren't many left, what looks to be a lesser impact going forward. Bran's story might have little to do with the climate, especially with him leaving the 7 kingdoms for the beyond the wall. What happens with the throne might end up being moot as there is a 'mother' with 3 dragons to the east and a bunch of Zombies to the north all heading for the same point.

I don't even think GRRM knows how it is supposed to end.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I am not sure why this is tagged, as it happened last season and the rest is your speculation. The show itself, even though it focused heavily on the Starks, is not about the Starks, but the political climate in Westeros. The Starks had a huge impact in the first 3 seasons, and since there aren't many left, what looks to be a lesser impact going forward. Bran's story might have little to do with the climate, especially with him leaving the 7 kingdoms for the beyond the wall. What happens with the throne might end up being moot as there is a 'mother' with 3 dragons to the east and a bunch of Zombies to the north all heading for the same point.

I don't even think GRRM knows how it is supposed to end.

I think he could have devoted 3 entirely separate book trilogies and had a much better overall product even if none of them were related. The wall vs. white walkers, westeros politics/wars, and Dany in the east. I sense it will get sloppy once they all collide once he gets around to concluding this all.

 

[desura]

I have heard that GRRM has given the basic outline to the ending to the makers of the television series, so should he die...before his time...they will finish up the story for everyone.

So he does know what ultimately happens.

 

[desura]

I actually had the "red wedding" spoiled for me by the Daily Show of all things, so you know.

 

[blankslate]

I think he could have devoted 3 entirely separate book trilogies and had a much better overall product even if none of them were related. The wall vs. white walkers, westeros politics/wars, and Dany in the east.

I sense it will get sloppy once they all collide once he gets around to concluding this all.

Well, that is one of the main draws of the series. It's not as easily tied up as say LotR or other series. It does ask how politics would change the current fantasy archetypes and tropes.

It's why some people who probably would not have watched a fantasy show watch it and I suspect it's partly why some people have raged in these forums about certain things.

The material by the nature of the new ideas (or at least ideas not very often explored in fantasy) necessitates a certain amount of "sloppiness" imo.


...

 

[blankslate]

I have heard that GRRM has given the basic outline to the ending to the makers of the television series, so should he die...before his time...they will finish up the story for everyone. So he does know what ultimately happens.

This is true. I won't link the interview because as I recall it does talk about stuff that hasn't happened on the show yet or background information that is still not obvious even to many readers.

George R.R. Martin shows the main plot points and knows the ending but doesn't have every single event planned.
As a result so do the Producers of the show.
So as the show goes on and the author slooowly writes his books, differences will increase probably to a point that the drama of the early days of this week won't be an issue at all.

....

 

[smackababy]

This is true. I won't link the interview because as I recall it does talk about stuff that hasn't happened on the show yet or background information that is still not obvious even to many readers.

George R.R. Martin shows the main plot points and knows the ending but doesn't have every single event planned.
As a result so do the Producers of the show.
So as the show goes on and the author slooowly writes his books, differences will increase probably to a point that the drama of the early days of this week won't be an issue at all.

....

I don't think the later books (ones yet written) will differ much. I view a lot of the changes as being necessary and as GRRM correcting mistakes he wished he had in in the previous books. He even admitted that the ages of the characters were too young, because he didn't take into account the average age of medieval people was skewed highly by infant death, not necessarily that the hard living made people only live 30-40 years.

And, even though he gave the main plot points to the writers of the show, that doesn't mean it is set in stone. He could have said "x happens, y eventually marries z, and the throne belongs to house xyz" and during the course of writing the book think to himself "well, it doesn't really make sense for that to happen, so now, y dies and z marries y's sister, etc.".

I think his points given were really just an "in case I die before I finish this, here is a conclusion for the watchers of the show." Not that that is a bad thing.

 

[zinfamous]

Yes, and I have gone over this scene several times. When the dancer fights king's guard and Lannister lackeys there a few things that are important. When Arya leaves the dancing master has a wooden sword, which the king's guard just broke in half. It cuts to Arya and you clearly hear a metal sword hit the ground, followed by a loud groan. Then a bunch of various fighting sounds. It sounded like he disarmed the king's guard.

My theory is he is either the faceless guy, Jacqen, or related to him somehow. Either way I think he lived, if he isn't Jacqen he got word to him about Arya.

/random theory from a non-book reader

good point (I was traveling yesterday and missed all of this)

I pretty much assumed that the dancing partner survived, since we never saw him die. Him being captured in that crew, with the prisoners near Kings landing, could be that he was rounded up with those having fled Winterfell or KL.

interesting.

 

[zinfamous]

Agreed, best scene of the season so far.

Spoiler

"Lots of cunts."

 

[zinfamous]

I don't know about the gem...or its possibility in the glorious death of Jofferey the Ass.

When I watched the episode, I saw Jofferey cut into the "pie" with his sword...and the birds flew out...but they showed a shot of the inside of the pie...and it looked dark and bloody. (killed a bird inside?) When he died, my first thought was that the pie had been poisoned...not the wine. (which makes good sense now)

that was my first thought as well, but in that shot of the pie--my initial suspicion being that the existence of the shot was intentional for a reason--those birds are definitely headless, and the blood is from their lack of heads.

I think the shot serves as misdirection for the most part, and to simply show that, yeah, that's a sharp sword that finely decapitated a bunch of birds in one swoop. Basically, I see no reason to deduce that the birds were poisoned based on what was shown, but perhaps only based on the fact that we were shown something. Essentially, you have about 55 minutes of screen time to make an episode, even less in commercial television. Every shot counts, so a viewer shouldn't expect such attention to be frivolous. Now, even that axiom could be used as misdirection.

 

[blankslate]

/random theory from a non-book reader

That's a hypothesis that has some popularity.


....

 

[zinfamous]

Sure, they have the "legal" claim, but that doesn't mean much. Especially, after Joffery had his guard going around killing babies and the poor. Do you think the mob would side with Margeary (and the Tyrells) or the Lannisters in a claim?

I think the Tyrells are in a much better position right now than the Lannisters, as far as power. The Martells would certainly side with them, and how many more houses?

I need to go back and watch it the scene, but prior to the wedding, Tywin and Oleanna are discussing the issues with the Iron Bank. The Lanisters, due to legal claims over the throne are on the hook for the massive debt owed to the bank, no?

Tywin, to me, looks more and more involved int eh plot. I see no issue with going back to the same arrangement--a Lannister child on the throne with Cersei as regent, Tywin as real authority, and perhaps striking a deal with Oleanna and the Tyrell's to aid in their debts with the Iron Bank, with promise of holding the throne for Marjory. Implicating Tyrion and Sansa is icing for both of them (though I agree-I want to think that Oleanna and Marjory were truly hoping to help her, and not simply playing nice in an attempt to set her up)

:hmm:

The only problem with this, is that I think the Tyrell plot to wed Sansa to the sword-swallower was legitimate, and certainly angered Tywin. The verbal battle between the two was very real--so either they came to a hidden agreement after this, or maintain the same animosity towards each other, which would, I think, remove Tywin's participation in the plot.

The Fool is obviously involved, as is Oleanna and quite likely Marjory (she is clearly frustrated the entire wedding with Joffrey's antics and focused on distracted him away form his torments and towards each beat in the plot)

 

[nageov3t]

as much as Sansa is a minor player in this whole thing, she is basically the only Stark remaining (with Arya presumed dead and Bran/Rickon killed by Theon, as far as everyone else is aware)... so her marriage is potentially an important one.

the Tyrells would have a vested interested in marrying off Loras and seeing him posted as the new Warden of the North or something (whereas marrying Cersei doesn't really net them much at all)

no spoilers, but weird diversion from the books is that on the show they mentioned Loras as the heir to Highgarden, whereas in the books, he has 2 older brothers.

 

[zinfamous]

Except he threw up, and had blood pouring out his eyes and nose. They made it as obvious as they could that he died an unnatural death.

You'd like the books better. In the books everyone at first thinks he was just choking to death on the pie, until Cersei demands Tyrion be arrested.

Uh, that's what happened in the show.

"The king's choking!"
"Someone help him, he is choking!"

etc, from a couple of people. First, I believe, was Tyrion and then Marjory I think.

 

[zinfamous]

No, Joffrey was one of the least interesting characters. He's a cruel bully who abuses his position to prey on everyone below him. He's not nuanced at all like many other characters in the series.

exactly. he was easy to hate, jsut as statuesque as many other one-dimensional characters. Not that He wasn't portrayed well or anything, or wasn't a bad character, just the least complex.

Jamie--he's complex. Goes form the same dickbag type that we got with Joffrey, to now what is clearly a re-born type of human. I feel that he is going to be the next "good" Lannister, possibly coming more and more to the defense of Tyrion and helping him to escape whatever trouble he is certainly in this coming episode.

 

[zinfamous]

speaking of pasts...

didn't the guy w/the red witch march to the Wall at the end of last season because of a vision the red witch saw?

this season, we see him eat dinner w/his wife and the red witch at this castle?!

oh yeah! good catch! I was waiting for that as well, seemed that Red Witch lady and "generic englishman #5" were actually moving their army in the right direction for once, only to be rewritten to just hang around the same old castle for a spell.

just as season 2 ended with zombies marching on the wall....and well, nothing since then. I guess the zombies have since retreated to plan their strategy better? :hmm:

 

[quikah]

as much as Sansa is a minor player in this whole thing, she is basically the only Stark remaining (with Arya presumed dead and Bran/Rickon killed by Theon, as far as everyone else is aware)... so her marriage is potentially an important one.

Yes, but the show hasn't really portrayed the aftermath in the north very well. Do they even care? The Bolton's are the new top dogs, but what happened to all the other houses up north who were chanting "King in the North" just a short time ago? The show needs to lay off Kings Landing for an episode or two to deal with this, sooner rather than later.

 

[KeithTalent]

as much as Sansa is a minor player in this whole thing, she is basically the only Stark remaining (with Arya presumed dead and Bran/Rickon killed by Theon, as far as everyone else is aware)... so her marriage is potentially an important one.

the Tyrells would have a vested interested in marrying off Loras and seeing him posted as the new Warden of the North or something (whereas marrying Cersei doesn't really net them much at all)

no spoilers, but weird diversion from the books is that on the show they mentioned Loras as the heir to Highgarden, whereas in the books, he has 2 older brothers.

Why are the Starks relevant at all now though, at least from a marriage/political sense? Bolton (sp?) now has the North and there is nobody to stand in front of them. Is the expectation that if Sansa goes off on her own, marries some random dude, then her kid would have claim to Winterfell/The North?

KT

 

[nageov3t]

Why are the Starks relevant at all now though, at least from a marriage/political sense? Bolton (sp?) now has the North and there is nobody to stand in front of them. Is the expectation that if Sansa goes off on her own, marries some random dude, then her kid would have claim to Winterfell/The North?

KT

if she married some random dude, no (I mean, yes but no one would care)

but if she married the son of one of the richest Houses with an army behind them pushing to return the rightful heir of Winterfel, she'd have a pretty good claim.

going to avoid commenting on whatever is going on presently in the North on the show because they haven't been showing much and I don't want to inadvertently spoil anything from the books.

 

[smackababy]

exactly. he was easy to hate, jsut as statuesque as many other one-dimensional characters. Not that He wasn't portrayed well or anything, or wasn't a bad character, just the least complex.

Jamie--he's complex. Goes form the same dickbag type that we got with Joffrey, to now what is clearly a re-born type of human. I feel that he is going to be the next "good" Lannister, possibly coming more and more to the defense of Tyrion and helping him to escape whatever trouble he is certainly in this coming episode.

Jaime was an interesting character, and still is. We only got an outside view of him and once he started to actually get his POV, it became clear he was far more complex. He sacrificed his honor in order to save the innocent. He didn't even protest against it, knowing despite his intentions, it wouldn't repair it.

The original Sansa plot for her to marry and go to Highgarden would have given the Tyrells considerable power. With Margaery beside the throne and a 'key to the north', the Lannisters couldn't control them at all. And, I'm sure Dorne would come to the aid, if asked, of anyone willing to kill the Lannisters.

And Joffrey's seat as being the one to hate vacated isn't likely to be empty for long. Before him, we hated Jaime and Cersei.

I saw an interview with Jack Gleeson where he stated that during his audition for Joffrey, he intentionally went over the top with his cruelty and 'mad king' mannerisms. Even he thought it was a bit of a caricaturesque portrayal, but the person in charge of casting loved it.