#Gamergate, the war on nerds, and the corruption of the left and the free press

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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The irony in this post is that some of the more vocal proponents of GG will make claims like "feminists will try to shame developers into making games they want" or "feminists believe they should never be offended" and then they'll turn around and shame websites for publishing something that offended them. Feminists have just as much right to an opinion as anyone else. You can certainly disagree with it (especially the radical feminists, who are crazy), and that's fine; that's how the system works. But you said it yourself; developers are going to go where the dollars are. If you realize that Anita Sarkeesian has no hope of getting GTA cancelled while it's turning billions in profit, why waste time being pissed off at her for being wrong? Why get upset at a game developer publishing a free-to-pay game sleeping with people for coverage they failed to provide? Why tell people that they don't have the right to never be offended, then get offended when they offer their opinion?


You keep bring up things that I have never said, and making it seem like its my opinion.

I have never advocated shaming a website, other than to say an article is stupid. I would then say that if you dont like the article, you can not view it, and feel free to explain to your peers why you disagree with it and did what you did. I think it would be a leap to call that shaming though.

You also keep bring up feminist right to free speech, as if I have ever said they did not have it. Not sure why you keep bring that up, but Ill say it again, they should have the same rights as anyone.

As for being upset over someone trying to get positive reviews with sex, are you saying that there isint a problem with that?

Lastly, when did I say I was offended by the anit-GG opinions? I am offended when I was insulted, but again, the issue is not with the offense. When the feminist want to take away free speech because they are offended, that is a problem. People dont have a right not to be offended.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Why exactly is that a problem? If they want a game produced that appeals to them but not to you, how does that affect you? Just don't buy it. There's room enough in the market to support Call of Duty and Gone Home, and there's not a AAA publisher on Earth who is going to stop making games like Grand Theft Auto because someone on the internet wants a game with more pro-social morals. I don't see how calling for games supporting additional viewpoints is a problem, and if you think that someone like Anita Sarkeesian is going to get videogames banned, you're delusional and paranoid. Feminists took on Hollywood in the 60s and 70s, and it's not like all we're left with now is chick flicks.
Yet if we don't push back when people like her try to make sure ONLY games of which she approves are made, she has a much better chance of success. (Admittedly, not with death threats or rape threats or publishing someone's home address or pictures of their children.)

You keep bring up things that I have never said, and making it seem like its my opinion.

I have never advocated shaming a website, other than to say an article is stupid. I would then say that if you dont like the article, you can not view it, and feel free to explain to your peers why you disagree with it and did what you did. I think it would be a leap to call that shaming though.

You also keep bring up feminist right to free speech, as if I have ever said they did not have it. Not sure why you keep bring that up, but Ill say it again, they should have the same rights as anyone.

As for being upset over someone trying to get positive reviews with sex, are you saying that there isint a problem with that?

Lastly, when did I say I was offended by the anit-GG opinions? I am offended when I was insulted, but again, the issue is not with the offense. When the feminist want to take away free speech because they are offended, that is a problem. People dont have a right not to be offended.
That last bit is key - there is no right to not be offended, and I'm sure Atomic Playboy would agree. I have no problem with people speaking out when they are offended or even with them working to change things that offend them, as long as they accept people pushing back.
 
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Yet if we don't push back when people like her try to make sure ONLY games of which she approves are made, she has a much better chance of success.

How? The market isn't going to change unless there's a legitimate demand for them to do so, and a couple people complaining on Youtube has never amounted to legitimate demand. I don't understand the paranoia that accompanies the people fighting against the "radical feminist agenda;" it's a scattershot collection of people posting their opinions that have absolutely no weight behind them. It's not like if you ignore the feminists Rockstar is going to say, "Jeez, we sold 30 million copies of our game, but this one chick really seems to hate it, I guess we shouldn't make it anymore." Unless you're convinced that a handful of feminist opinions are worth more than literally billions of dollars that gamers spend on traditional "sexist" franchises, there's no possible way to conclude that they have any hope of success. It's absolutely delusional.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
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There actually is proof, and it's this: there was no review. Never. Not one. Nathan Grayson has never reviewed Depression Quest. Period. Full stop. Stop repeating this easily disprovable lie.

There was positive coverage - and that is how the original reports went - but others who read it assumed that meant "review" when it didn't (and they didn't look into it for themselves).

Worse, many took "being in a relationship with someone you're covering" to mean "trading sex for coverage" which is totally out of line. No one should be accused of such an intention without any kind of evidence, and rarely would there actually be evidence of something like that. Besides, most people who are in some kind of relationship with each other are going to be because they want to be.

I'm sure you already know what that positive coverage was, but it refers to two things. First is the Rock Paper Shotgun article with 50 new Steam greenlight titles, where Depression Quest is featured by: referred to with the sole screenshot, referred to with with a pun ("Acceptance Quest") in the piece title, listed as one of three games especially worth checking out, and given as one of the two games in the tags. Call it blown out of proportion, but I think there's a pretty good case that this is the most prominently featured of the 50 games in that piece. I also personally think that for an indie game plugs are everything, and drawing subtle but heavy exposure to it and giving a single sentence of praise separating it from several other can be at least as impactful as an actual positive review. But that's just my opinion.

The other bit in Kotaku was his coverage of Quinn after she lead a mass withdrawal from the game jam she was in, decidedly showcasing her point of view in the matter.

The thing is, Kotaku EiC Stephen Totillo actually agreed that Grayson shouldn't have written the article if he was romantically involved with Quinn, or else he never would have found reason to ask him (and he said in a series of tweets that a journalist should recuse himself in such a situation). The response was that they only entered a relationship shortly after the game jam article, so there wasn't a conflict of interest. I'm not going to dispute this claim, there's no evidence to the contrary, but if Totillo thought it was a fair question to ask why is everyone else being skewered for showing interest in it? That's not to say Quinn wasn't harassed, but that doesn't mean the whole question was rooted in a fabrication, or that discussion of it should have been grossly censored.

At any rate, deeply ingrained lies are just as rooted in the other side. Here's a popular one, recently uttered by the New Yorker:

"This controversy arose after a jilted gamer wrote an online screed accusing his ex-girlfriend, a game designer, of trading sex for favorable press coverage."

But repeated pretty much verbatim by several publications beforehand. When the reality is, said "jilted" ex Eron Gjoni never wrote in his blog post any claim accusing Zoe Quinn of trading sex for favorable press coverage. So where is everyone denouncing such a blatant lie? I mean, Eron has received plenty of harassment as well, doxxing and so on (including of his parents). The difference is, one side of the lies is coming from disgruntled individuals who largely lack a voice outside of some quarantined forums of the internet, while the other is more or less the mass media. Is it really so off base to question this too?
 
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0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
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And...we've just lost the tested.com...mythbusters channel
http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2n060v/mass_censorship_by_the_tested_crew_on_their/

Because everyone knows, if you disagree with her, you must be an mra...therefore you don't deserve to have a say at all..

https://www.youtube.com/user/MykeruMedia
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQJW3WMsx1q1OkWXNYx0Oozq6fpNCvvKZ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJGZM2jtMpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnZleh_e3M
She is from the "atheism plus" days. Basically atheism plus feminism. So if you weren't a "feminist", you weren't an atheist anymore and had to be driven out. And we all know how feminists hold rational arguments based on facts and critical thinking which would be perfectly compatible with the logic and critical thought cherished by the atheism and skepticism community....

No...problem..there..at ..all..

And that response is so weak. If you aren't part of their "tested community" you have no right to speak? They wouldn't tolerate that line of reasoning from a conservative, that you can be sure.



more blocking blacklisting madness from the International Game Developers Association (IGDA).
https://twitter.com/JennOfHardwire/status/536007243154472961
Gamergate are the new witches or communists I guess. Don't harass a an Anti GG person, but GG person? Fair game apparently.
https://twitter.com/thewtfmagazine/status/536020422458753024


Dont' care about grayson and quinn, but their prehistory is long.
https://archive.today/FddAO
So the timeline of events is up to question. No that it matters, the incident is only notable in that it made people look twice.
 
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Painman

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
3,805
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So the International Game Developers Association (IGDA) decided to get involved, and do a bit of Twitter blacklisting of their own.

Only problem is, one of the guys blacklisted is THEIR OWN CEO FOR PUERTO RICO and he's threatening to resign now

https://archive.today/OwiKX

Thanks to a twitter "block-bot" app designed by some rank amateur that the IDGA decided to endorse.

It's just a comedy of errors now.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
How? The market isn't going to change unless there's a legitimate demand for them to do so, and a couple people complaining on Youtube has never amounted to legitimate demand. I don't understand the paranoia that accompanies the people fighting against the "radical feminist agenda;" it's a scattershot collection of people posting their opinions that have absolutely no weight behind them. It's not like if you ignore the feminists Rockstar is going to say, "Jeez, we sold 30 million copies of our game, but this one chick really seems to hate it, I guess we shouldn't make it anymore." Unless you're convinced that a handful of feminist opinions are worth more than literally billions of dollars that gamers spend on traditional "sexist" franchises, there's no possible way to conclude that they have any hope of success. It's absolutely delusional.
It's more powerful than one might expect. Look at commercials - the woman is virtually always the smart one, the man is almost always the doofus - because otherwise you risk pissing off a very small but very vocal part of the population who'll cry that you're anti-woman. If the radical feminists can convince companies like Rockstar that games like GTA are hurting their bottom line - even if those games are individually big moneymakers - then companies like Rockstar will not produce games like GTA, period. If the radical feminists can convince retailers not to carry games like GTA, then for many gamers those games might as well not exist, especially consolers.

Game companies are more resistant than other forms of entertainment because computer games have effective game-only distribution channels such as Steam which by their nature are highly resistant to such pressure (compared to Walmart or Best Buy) and typically don't rely on advertisers who are easily pressured. But assuming that your views will automatically prevail and thus your opposition is dismissible is never a smart thing to do.

Full disclosure, I wouldn't play games like GTA for money. (Well, maybe for a hell of a lot of money, if I could take lots of hot showers afterward.) Killing cops and hookers and passers-by is certainly not my idea of entertainment. But I certainly support those who like them, and their right to answer criticism in kind.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
I half expect 0roo0roo to start ranting about chemtrails next. There seems a be a nice crossover in posting styles between GG morons and conspiracy idiots. Same level of intelligence too.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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It's more powerful than one might expect. Look at commercials - the woman is virtually always the smart one, the man is almost always the doofus - because otherwise you risk pissing off a very small but very vocal part of the population who'll cry that you're anti-woman. If the radical feminists can convince companies like Rockstar that games like GTA are hurting their bottom line - even if those games are individually big moneymakers - then companies like Rockstar will not produce games like GTA, period. If the radical feminists can convince retailers not to carry games like GTA, then for many gamers those games might as well not exist, especially consolers.

I'm not disagreeing with this; if the radical feminists can convince the publishers or retailers that there is an economic incentive to getting rid of certain franchises, they will probably go away. What I do disagree with is that there is literally no argument the radical feminists can make that will convince anyone with a scrap of economic sense that this is the case. Radical feminists make up such an insignificant portion of the potential marketplace that it would be laughable that any publisher is going to take their demands seriously. Radical feminists have complained about every form of media we have, and we still have movies aimed at men, music aimed at men, tv shows aimed at men, books aimed at men, magazines aimed at men... I know they say you should never say never, but the scenario that you're painting will never ever happen, period. It's just delusional paranoia to assume that it will.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
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I'm not disagreeing with this; if the radical feminists can convince the publishers or retailers that there is an economic incentive to getting rid of certain franchises, they will probably go away. What I do disagree with is that there is literally no argument the radical feminists can make that will convince anyone with a scrap of economic sense that this is the case. Radical feminists make up such an insignificant portion of the potential marketplace that it would be laughable that any publisher is going to take their demands seriously. Radical feminists have complained about every form of media we have, and we still have movies aimed at men, music aimed at men, tv shows aimed at men, books aimed at men, magazines aimed at men... I know they say you should never say never, but the scenario that you're painting will never ever happen, period. It's just delusional paranoia to assume that it will.

So delusional she's given the Game Developers' choice Award?
http://www.gamechoiceawards.com/archive/ambassador.html

Your argument is more like a gas bomb to get the peasants to stop revolting and just go away. She, and others like her, have significant influence over laws (let alone game development.) Heck, all they have to do is pass a new law FORCING game developers to cater to the feminist-approved agenda.

It worked wonderfully for family court. :'(
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Heck, all they have to do is pass a new law FORCING game developers to cater to the feminist-approved agenda.

Like they've managed to do with exactly zero other forms of media? This is delusional paranoia with absolutely no justification or logic behind it. Jack Thompson tried getting games banned back when half the country thought kids playing Doom led to Columbine and he failed; if actual school shootings aren't a powerful enough argument, how on Earth is Anita Sarkeesian going to get games banned for using the same tropes that exist in every other form of storytelling ever? It will never happen.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
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Like they've managed to do with exactly zero other forms of media? This is delusional paranoia with absolutely no justification or logic behind it. Jack Thompson tried getting games banned back when half the country thought kids playing Doom led to Columbine and he failed; if actual school shootings aren't a powerful enough argument, how on Earth is Anita Sarkeesian going to get games banned for using the same tropes that exist in every other form of storytelling ever? It will never happen.

Never? "NEVER"?? Feminists have already passed tons of laws across the board from family courts to TV representation. Just because YOU don't think it'll happen doesn't negate all the other laws they have ALREADY passed in other forms of media, law, etc.

It's creeping and must be fought to be stopped. Denial will result in total loss... so are you just closing your eyes in denial or purposely throwing a smoke screen to hide that this is your actual agenda? mmmMM? :hmm:
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Never? "NEVER"?? Feminists have already passed tons of laws across the board from family courts to TV representation. Just because YOU don't think it'll happen doesn't negate all the other laws they have ALREADY passed in other forms of media, law, etc.

It's creeping and must be fought to be stopped. Denial will result in total loss... so are you just closing your eyes in denial or purposely throwing a smoke screen to hide that this is your actual agenda? mmmMM? :hmm:

Could you cite some examples of laws that feminists have passed that represent this horrible outcome that must be avoided? Preferably laws specific to media, as we're talking about video games here. Like you mention laws about "TV representation"; what laws specifically do you mean? Without specific examples, it's hard to take your point as anything but baseless fear-mongering. I mean, you said that Anita Sarkeesian can pass laws banning video games because she won a ceremonial award at a trade show, which is a little like claiming that if Gloria Steinem won a People's Choice Award, Congress would ban Michael Bay from making movies. That's a leap that defies all logic.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
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Could you cite some examples of laws that feminists have passed that represent this horrible outcome that must be avoided? Preferably laws specific to media, as we're talking about video games here. Like you mention laws about "TV representation"; what laws specifically do you mean? Without specific examples, it's hard to take your point as anything but baseless fear-mongering. I mean, you said that Anita Sarkeesian can pass laws banning video games because she won a ceremonial award at a trade show, which is a little like claiming that if Gloria Steinem won a People's Choice Award, Congress would ban Michael Bay from making movies. That's a leap that defies all logic.

You're the one purposely painting that leap as larger than it is.

Sarky alone cannot pass a law.
But she's a mega-feminist. Along with other teams of mega-feminists.
Mega-feminists most certainly DO create case law that affect the public. Even without law, will lobby stores (etc) into selling or NOT selling what they want, etc. Women are being catered to because they have the control over both majority votes AND most spending money.

If I have time, I'll try to find actual law examples - though fat lot of good it'll do - you'll just deny that too.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Could you cite some examples of laws that feminists have passed that represent this horrible outcome that must be avoided? Preferably laws specific to media, as we're talking about video games here. Like you mention laws about "TV representation"; what laws specifically do you mean? Without specific examples, it's hard to take your point as anything but baseless fear-mongering. I mean, you said that Anita Sarkeesian can pass laws banning video games because she won a ceremonial award at a trade show, which is a little like claiming that if Gloria Steinem won a People's Choice Award, Congress would ban Michael Bay from making movies. That's a leap that defies all logic.

Do you not believe that small organized groups can get laws passed that are not popular?

NRA
 
Feb 6, 2007
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You're the one purposely painting that leap as larger than it is.

Sarky alone cannot pass a law.
But she's a mega-feminist. Along with other teams of mega-feminists.
Mega-feminists most certainly DO create case law that affect the public. Even without law, will lobby stores (etc) into selling or NOT selling what they want, etc. Women are being catered to because they have the control over both majority votes AND most spending money.

If I have time, I'll try to find actual law examples - though fat lot of good it'll do - you'll just deny that too.

I'm perfectly willing to consider actual examples. I'm not willing to consider scenarios that don't have any real-life corollary, especially if the evidence we do have all points to said scenario being wildly implausible. So please, find some actual law examples and let's discuss it reasonably. I can assure you, if you find examples of radical feminists curbing the free speech rights of other people, I'll be right there with you in decrying that behavior as unacceptable.

That said... what's a mega-feminist? Have you actually watched any feminist frequency videos? Do you have specific examples of Anita Sarkeesian calling for boycotts or advocating that specific games should be illegal? And have those actions gained any traction whatsoever outside of a fringe group? If Anita Sarkeesian is such a threat to the mainstream gaming establishment, how come games like Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty keep shattering sales records? If she's actually calling for boycotts of those franchises, they've been utterly unsuccessful, which furthers my contention that she doesn't have the political capital to affect any meaningful change at a legislative level so it's not worth getting concerned about. But I haven't actually heard her call for boycotts or the banning of games; can you show me where she did that? That's not something I'm ever going to support (I firmly believe censorship is wrong even if it's for products or ideas I disagree with). But without evidence, I'm not just going to take your word for it that she did those things.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Do you not believe that small organized groups can get laws passed that are not popular?

NRA

The NRA is hardly a small group; it has 5 million members. Sure, that's small compared to the entire population, but that's enormous for a political lobbying group. And a lot of the legislation the NRA supports is not unpopular. I don't really think that's a good comparison to a tiny group of feminists complaining about video games.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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The NRA is hardly a small group; it has 5 million members. Sure, that's small compared to the entire population, but that's enormous for a political lobbying group. And a lot of the legislation the NRA supports is not unpopular. I don't really think that's a good comparison to a tiny group of feminists complaining about video games.

The contention you had was that a small group cannot effect the majority. The NRA has 5 million members, but very few are active in any real way. As for passing popular things sure, but the point was that they got things through that were not popular.

5 million voters is a very small % of the over all voting pool. The point is when small groups are organized, they can effect the larger population. I'm not saying that the feminists are even close to the power of the NRA, but it establishes my point.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
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That said... what's a mega-feminist? Have you actually watched any feminist frequency videos? Do you have specific examples of Anita Sarkeesian calling for boycotts or advocating that specific games should be illegal? And have those actions gained any traction whatsoever outside of a fringe group?
Sarky and friends censor their comments on a regular basis, something you SAY you object to but are still her fan. She's been pointed out dozens of times here and by folks like thunderf00t... if you're STILL crying "prove it", then no amount of evidence will ever convince you.

At least you're not alone in that regard. Pretty typical human behaviour.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Sarky and friends censor their comments on a regular basis, something you SAY you object to but are still her fan.

I'm no fan of Anita Sarkeesian. Never once have I claimed to be. Just because I support her right to voice an opinion doesn't mean I support that opinion, and I don't consider her a threat because she's had absolutely no substantive success in advancing any agenda that would end video games or what have you. I think it's laughable to treat her as though she's got a snowball's chance in Hell of banning games.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
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I'm no fan of Anita Sarkeesian. Never once have I claimed to be. Just because I support her right to voice an opinion doesn't mean I support that opinion, and I don't consider her a threat because she's had absolutely no substantive success in advancing any agenda that would end video games or what have you. I think it's laughable to treat her as though she's got a snowball's chance in Hell of banning games.

I don't think Anita Sarkeesian would be able to ban games. I don't think she really wants to either (well, maybe she does, I don't know, but she hasn't expressed such a desire).

However, I don't think this means that she won't be able to influence them. We can already see this happening, look at the "Amita" character in Far Cry 4. If she actually does push something that ends up in more diverse gaming casts and more intelligent writing then great. It could result in tokenism trash, but frankly I don't really personally care.

I'm somewhat more concerned with things like the "gender equality" or whatever rating that Sweden is toying with putting on games, Here's the thing, I don't think most people give a shit either way about representation in games. At the same time, a lot of people will support something if you're able to convincingly package it as opposing sexist assholes. Stirring up fear over moral panics isn't really much of an intangible thing. You have a good point that no one's had much luck steering other forms of media like movies. On the other hand, I think they've been able to make more headway with games by employing a whole bunch of negative stereotypes with gamers and the gaming industry that don't really have analogs with movie viewers or Hollywood. You know, that gamers are loser nerds with poor social skills, an insular group that must resent or outright hates women because they're so male dominated. This doesn't work with movies because everyone watches them (well okay, everyone plays games now too, but there's much less of a division where people only watch "casual movies"), and Hollywood doesn't have the same stigma as being hostile to women.

When you get down to it, I don't have a single problem with Sarkeesian's video series (and I resent any insistence to the contrary). I do actually at least agree with some of it, and beyond that, I agree that there are dumb gender stereotypes in a lot of games (and movies for that matter...), and games would be better off with less of them - where I disagree with Sarkeesian it's more about her doing a poor job expressing this and having motivations that I don't align with. What I'm really concerned with is people like her and many others that have crafted a narrative rooted in fear mongering, that have turned away from games and instead painted various gamers and game developers as the enemy. And that have co-opted something that has nothing to do with sexism as some massive feminist battle against alleged misogynists, something that has caused a ton of harm. If Sarkeesian weren't so hell bent on villainizing innocent people I seriously wouldn't give a shit about her.
 
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Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
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^^^ Like Sarky saying her subject/object dichotomy BS? Men are actors, and the poor poor women are merely acted upon. Bull.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
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Of course you have the right to your opinion. But if your opinion is pointlessly hostile or just plain stupid, you should expect to be ignored.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Of course you have the right to your opinion. But if your opinion is pointlessly hostile or just plain stupid, you should expect to be ignored.

The problem ignoring is sometimes not enough. So with games, the worst thing is we get crap games. Those women who push their agenda for now, are mostly an annoyance. I truly dont expect them to be unimportant forever. The trend I see is a growing group with the new feminist mindset.

I think the problem comes from the fact that there are genuine issues that effect women that society should be looking at and dealing with. So when someone stands up and says they are fighting for women's rights, we assume they are trying to do good. Most people dont dig into the outcomes and actions, because society does not like to question those who say they want to do good.
 
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