Gay Marraige

[Brutuskend]

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: Brutuskend

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
I don't mind it as long as they're not my neighbours and I don't have to see them at work.

Why do those things matter? They're just people.

For one, seeing a couple of men going at it if they happen to leave their blinds open and I happen to take a gander... that could scar me for life.

As for work... well, to put it simply I'd be scared to bend over to pick up a dime.

<sigh> Stereotypes suck. Why do you assume that someone would rape you if you were to bend over? Heck, why do you assume that a gay guy would even care to check you out?

I agree that sex is something that should not be a public matter, at least unless all parties possibly involved have prior knowledge and consent.

Both of those points are way outside of the realm of homosexuality... they could be applied to any orientation.

Originally posted by: Brutuskend
Why should Mormons be able to have multiple wives? Because the laws says they can't.

Other countries allow it though.
So.

If their religion permits it, then they should be able to be married -- as recognized by their church.

If the law permits it, then they should be able to be married -- as recognized by the law.

That's just another reason that marriage should not be the proper term for anyone to use. Let some word serve as marriage (as recognized by the church) and some word serve as marriage (as recognized by the state).

To clarify: I'm not particularly for or against the law permitting multiple spouses. The law should allow them to be married to X people, and the church should allow them to be married to Y people, inasmuchas X <=> Y.

But that brings up the whole church verses state thing and I thought you wanted to bypass that? You apparently can't have both, at least not in this country. Right now, the state or states say gays can not marry just like they say Mormons can only have one wife.
There ARE Mormons that DO have more then one wife and there ARE Gays that are Married even if the state doesn't recognize their union as such. Want to change it? Then you can either wait and see if it changes or take one of the options I suggested in one of my other posts.

Gripping about it will change nothing. And like I said in the post that pissed you off so much, trying to change peoples minds that are against it is like US trying to change your sexual orientation. It won't happen. But like I also said, we aren't trying to change YOU and as I see it you really don't have a right to try and change us or condemn us for OUR beliefs.

Perhaps you cannot be swayed, but I know *many* people can be, and many already have been. Each year brings a growing level of acceptance, whether you agree with it or not. It may be a long time from now, but gays will eventually become as accepted as blacks are now accepted, and it will seem stupid that we ever had to have conversations like this.

What good will waiting to see if it changes do? If all of the gay men in the nation just sat there, doing nothing at all, then acceptance would never come -- there would be no point in it. I believe that there has to be some level of vocalization there in order to promote and encourage acceptance. I can think of many people that previously were very outspoken homophobes that stopped with that nonsense, and became friends with several homosexuals, after they realized that they were normal. Most gays are *no* different than you are, with the *only* exception being a single sexual preference. Big deal. That shouldn't come up in a workplace, and really does not hurt anyone.

Oh I have been friends with gays before. And like I said, for the most part I have NO problem with gays as long as the leave ME alone and don't try talking straight people or people that are to young or inexperienced to know WHAT they are into "giving it a go".

I'm just tired of hearing about the whole issue. Just like I'm sick of hearing about repartitions.

My view about sexual orientation is about the same as my view on religion. Some people need it to get through life and if it helps them, then more power to them. But don't try and convince me that EVERYONE needs it or that your way is the only right way. We are all individuals with our own backgrounds and life experiences and what may be right for one may not be right for the next. I would never try and tell someone that their religion is the wrong one and I would never except someone doing that to me, or convincing ME that I needed a religion.

My bit about the whole Sodom and Gomorrah thing was maybe a bit over the top, and I do apologize for that.

However, that bit about my dog was Totally FVCKED UP, and you know it. :|

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: sandorski
I'm a big fan of Democracy and all, but as many like to point out in other debates the US is a Republic. This is the perfect issue for a republican(not to be confused with the political party of same name) response: Grant Homosexuals Marriage despite what the Majority wants and in a couple decades the Majority will agree it was the right decision.

This is not the perfect issue for a republic to resolve. Gays are a discrete and insular minority, who lack the numbers to make a meaningful challenge to the straight majority.
The answer will not change in a couple of decades, without some unprecedented changes. Slavery/civil rights, etc. is still an issue, and that is at least fourteen decades old.

It is about bigotry. It really is.

The Courts will hammer out a solution on Equal Protection grounds, if anything ever happens at all.

 

[GeekDrew]

Originally posted by: Brutuskend
Oh I have been friends with gays before. And like I said, for the most part I have NO problem with gays as long as the leave ME alone and don't try talking straight people or people that are to young or inexperienced to know WHAT they are into "giving it a go".

I'm just tired of hearing about the whole issue. Just like I'm sick of hearing about repartitions.

My view about sexual orientation is about the same as my view on religion. Some people need it to get through life and if it helps them, then more power to them. But don't try and convince me that EVERYONE needs it or that your way is the only right way. We are all individuals with our own backgrounds and life experiences and what may be right for one may not be right for the next. I would never try and tell someone that their religion is the wrong one and I would never except someone doing that to me, or convincing ME that I needed a religion.

My bit about the whole Sodom and Gomorrah thing was maybe a bit over the top, and I do apologize for that.

I understand wanting them to leave you alone sexually -- too many people meant *at all* -- meaning that they wouldn't even speak with them in a business setting, which is what I thought you meant.

Everyone has to have their own opinion; life would cease to exist without it. I don't think that everyone needs it, or that my way is the only way. I know that there are *many* more out there like me, that think that way. I don't really care what religion someone is, until they start trying to make me assume that religion, and that's when I get very defensive, very quickly.

So, why the opposition to gay marriage if you've been friends with gays before? Surely it wasn't a friend that assaulted you. Why punish those of us that happen to share a common link (and a weak one, at that), when we've done nothing to hurt anyone else? That's kinda like women saying that all men are horrible, just because they were assaulted. Yes, that may seem perfectly logical from their viewpoint, but it just doesn't make sense from an objective perspective.

 

[Brutuskend]

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: Brutuskend
Oh I have been friends with gays before. And like I said, for the most part I have NO problem with gays as long as the leave ME alone and don't try talking straight people or people that are to young or inexperienced to know WHAT they are into "giving it a go".

I'm just tired of hearing about the whole issue. Just like I'm sick of hearing about repartitions.

My view about sexual orientation is about the same as my view on religion. Some people need it to get through life and if it helps them, then more power to them. But don't try and convince me that EVERYONE needs it or that your way is the only right way. We are all individuals with our own backgrounds and life experiences and what may be right for one may not be right for the next. I would never try and tell someone that their religion is the wrong one and I would never except someone doing that to me, or convincing ME that I needed a religion.

My bit about the whole Sodom and Gomorrah thing was maybe a bit over the top, and I do apologize for that.

I understand wanting them to leave you alone sexually -- too many people meant *at all* -- meaning that they wouldn't even speak with them in a business setting, which is what I thought you meant.

Everyone has to have their own opinion; life would cease to exist without it. I don't think that everyone needs it, or that my way is the only way. I know that there are *many* more out there like me, that think that way. I don't really care what religion someone is, until they start trying to make me assume that religion, and that's when I get very defensive, very quickly.

So, why the opposition to gay marriage if you've been friends with gays before? Surely it wasn't a friend that assaulted you. Why punish those of us that happen to share a common link (and a weak one, at that), when we've done nothing to hurt anyone else? That's kinda like women saying that all men are horrible, just because they were assaulted. Yes, that may seem perfectly logical from their viewpoint, but it just doesn't make sense from an objective perspective.

I really don't know how to answer that. It's not from a religious stand point since I'm NOT religious. All I can say I guess is that to ME, it just doesn't "feel" right. But then my father was a minister when I was growing up so even though I have rejected organized religion maybe some of my early background is still buried back there deep where I can't touch it. Maybe it's generational thing or maybe I just fear it's one more steep into what I consider the over all degeneration of the U.S. as I knew it.

I really don't know. I just know that for me it seems wrong for whatever reason....

 

[GeekDrew]

Originally posted by: Brutuskend
I really don't know how to answer that. It's not from a religious stand point since I'm NOT religious. All I can say I guess is that to ME, it just doesn't "feel" right. But then my father was a minister when I was growing up so even though I have rejected organized religion maybe some of my early background is still buried back there deep where I can't touch it. Maybe it's generational thing or maybe I just fear it's one more steep into what I consider the over all degeneration of the U.S. as I knew it.

I really don't know. I just know that for me it seems wrong for whatever reason....

Ah.... OK.

FWIW, sorry for 'attacking' you earlier. There's just something about being told that it'd be a good idea for me to leave the country that gets me pissed off.

 

[Brutuskend]

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: Brutuskend
I really don't know how to answer that. It's not from a religious stand point since I'm NOT religious. All I can say I guess is that to ME, it just doesn't "feel" right. But then my father was a minister when I was growing up so even though I have rejected organized religion maybe some of my early background is still buried back there deep where I can't touch it. Maybe it's generational thing or maybe I just fear it's one more steep into what I consider the over all degeneration of the U.S. as I knew it.

I really don't know. I just know that for me it seems wrong for whatever reason....

Ah.... OK.

FWIW, sorry for 'attacking' you earlier. There's just something about being told that it'd be a good idea for me to leave the country that gets me pissed off.

The attack on ME didn't faze me in the least. And I may have ever deserved it to some extent.

However saying something about my dog, well THAT was just LOW and it surprised me that ANYONE would stoop to that level for ANY reason.

In fact after that, I'm rather amazed you didn't get a vacation. Probably the only reason you didn't was that I may have provoked it to some extent.

(or the Mods never saw it.)

 

[compuwiz1]

I have an argument against.

I do not think the Anus was designed for anything other than outgoing mail, if ya know what I mean.

 

[Pepsei]

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate
OK - Here's my point of view on gay marriage.
...

i like your idea, take marriage out of government completely.

they can issue civil union certificate to everyone.

people can still get married by the church.....

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: Brutuskend
I really don't know how to answer that. It's not from a religious stand point since I'm NOT religious. All I can say I guess is that to ME, it just doesn't "feel" right. But then my father was a minister when I was growing up so even though I have rejected organized religion maybe some of my early background is still buried back there deep where I can't touch it. Maybe it's generational thing or maybe I just fear it's one more steep into what I consider the over all degeneration of the U.S. as I knew it.

I really don't know. I just know that for me it seems wrong for whatever reason....

Ah.... OK.

FWIW, sorry for 'attacking' you earlier. There's just something about being told that it'd be a good idea for me to leave the country that gets me pissed off.

Are you still here? I thought we told you to leave the country!

 

[Gamer X]

It's incorrect to call it marriage; it is homo sex.

 

[AnyMal]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
I have an argument against.

I do not think the Anus was designed for anything other than outgoing mail, if ya know what I mean.

Fantastic! Make sure your wife writes this one down in case you'll want to "diversify" abd "spice up" your sec life some day

 

[huberm]

homosexuality is wrong. Likewise, homosexuals are looking for marriage as a way to make them feel like what they are doing is ok.

As you can tell, I strongly oppose gay marriage.

 

[tyler811]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I am married and straight but I have a few gay coworkers and I have yet to hear one good argument against allowing them to marry. With the government so up in a huff about this issue, I just can't see their justification.

Because you?re average American voter does not keep up on the issues. The last presidential election proves it. With education, the environment, human rights, the economy and our soldiers (Stay safe please and come home to your families) where they should not be.

SIDE NOTE: I do support our troops in their job to the best to their ability but not the reason why they were sent over.

Bush pulls a completely irrelevant topic out of his ass and the right wing falls for it. Because they have their head so far up their ass, their brain suffers from lack of oxygen. Plus they have no more room up their ass because of their big heads, the idea that they might like something else shoved up there scares them.

I personally do no think it would be right but then I will not force my beliefs upon someone else. And I sure as hell will not have my vote swayed because some ones think?s it should be against the law. This is not something you govern and quite frankly its no nobody?s damn business other then the people who want to do it.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: 6000SUX
The reality is that tax breaks already exist in many (most?) states for gay couples

That isn't true, at all. In fact, more than a dozen states have recently amended their constitutions to make any state acknowledgement of gay relationships illegal. This means government employers (councils, schools, univeristies, police/ fire force, garbage collection, etc.) are not allowed to offer 'benefits' (the same benefits they would offer a straight couple) to gay couples even if they wanted to.

There is one state that allows same-sex couples to marry - that is Massachucetts. (Recent polls show a majority of citizens in that state now support the new laws, btw.) Married same-sex couples in that state get the same state-level tax breaks (and other legal protections, benefits, & responsibilities) as married heterosexual couples - however the federal government doesn't recognize their marriages (even though they ARE legally married) and thus these same-sex couples don't get any federal tax concessions. The federal government refuses to recognize their legal marital union.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: paulney
Nice try. Even without researching this topic, a quick google search turns up this:

http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/marriage/ssuap/

That organisation is renowned for it's campaigns against gay people and gay rights. You could not have picked a more biased organisation from which to quote.

Here is a summary of the research done by an unbiased web site:

"With the exception of studies at a few universities with very close connections with conservative Christian denominations (like the Brigham Young University in Salt Lake City, UT), essentially all research studies into same-sex parenting reveal that children of these families develop normally. There is some indication that boys are less sexually adventuresome, and that girls are more sexually daring. There are also anecdotal accounts of children having to endure ridicule, taunting and harassment from other youth because of their parents' sexual orientation."

Religious tolerance - gay parenting

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: huberm
homosexuality is wrong. Likewise, homosexuals are looking for marriage as a way to make them feel like what they are doing is ok.

As you can tell, I strongly oppose gay marriage.

Solid argument, flawless reasoning.

 

[amicold]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I am married and straight but I have a few gay coworkers and I have yet to hear one good argument against allowing them to marry. With the government so up in a huff about this issue, I just can't see their justification.

Nothing wrong with marriage, but when they start to adopt kids, that's where I draw the line. The kids will possibly be screwed up from having two dads,..or moms for that matter. There's a reason two same sex people can't produce a child.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: amicold

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I am married and straight but I have a few gay coworkers and I have yet to hear one good argument against allowing them to marry. With the government so up in a huff about this issue, I just can't see their justification.

Nothing wrong with marriage, but when they start to adopt kids, that's where I draw the line. The kids will possibly be screwed up from having two dads,..or moms for that matter. There's a reason two same sex people can't produce a child.

There's a reason they can't produce one, there's no proven reason why they can't raise one. If you can provide a link to a study proving that children raised by same-sex couples are psychologicaly damaged or disadvantaged, then you might have a point. Until then...

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: 6000SUX
The reality is that tax breaks already exist in many (most?) states for gay couples

That isn't true, at all. In fact, more than a dozen states have recently amended their constitutions to make any state acknowledgement of gay relationships illegal. This means councils, and government employees are not allowed to offer 'benefits' (the same benefits they would offer a straight couple) to gay couples even if they wanted to.

There is one state that allows same-sex couples to marry - that is Massachucetts. (Recent polls show a majority of citizens in that state now support the new laws, btw.) Married same-sex couples in that state get the same state-level tax breaks as married heterosexual couples - however the federal government doesn't recognize their marriages (even though they ARE legally married) and thus these same-sex couples don't get any federal tax concessions. The federal government refuses to recognize their legal marital union.

I'm from Massachusetts. I stand corrected; I don't know why I thought that so many states supported benefits for gay couples. I think I could dig up "many" as in the more-than-three sense, but definitely not close to a majority. It appears that 31 states have enacted special legislation just to prevent recognizing homosexual unions recognized in other states.

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: amicold

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I am married and straight but I have a few gay coworkers and I have yet to hear one good argument against allowing them to marry. With the government so up in a huff about this issue, I just can't see their justification.

Nothing wrong with marriage, but when they start to adopt kids, that's where I draw the line. The kids will possibly be screwed up from having two dads,..or moms for that matter. There's a reason two same sex people can't produce a child.

I feel that since gays apparently want to raise kids, the burden should be on them to prove that doing so doesn't stand to harm the kids at all. I'm not being hysterical here, but it's never been (close to) proven that homosexuality cannot be caused by nurture, and it is obviously preferable to have kids grow up sexually normal, all else being equal.

 

[johnjohn320]

Probably been posted somewhere around here before, but hey:

The Top Ten Reasons Why Gay Marriage is Wrong

(1)Homosexuality is not natural. Real people always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

(2)Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

(3)Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

(4)Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn?t changed at all; women are still property, blacks still aren?t supposed to marry whites.

(5)Straight marriage will be less meaningful if homosexual marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears? 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

(6)Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Homosexual couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn?t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren?t full yet, and the world needs more children.

(7)Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

(8)Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That?s why we have only one religion in North America.

(9)Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That?s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

(10)Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven?t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
I have an argument against.

I do not think the Anus was designed for anything other than outgoing mail, if ya know what I mean.

That's an argument (a crude one at best) against treating homosexuality as natural, which is a different question from treating it as valid (equal to heterosexuality, "normal", whatever).

It is true that homosexuality is abnormal, deviant, etc. statistically speaking, and in light of the fact that sex arose as procreation, homosexual sex does count as a perversion of function. However, it's not fair for anyone who engages in recreational sex to say that gay sex is wrong on that basis. Do you like oral sex?

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: johnjohn320
Probably been posted somewhere around here before, but hey:

The Top Ten Reasons Why Gay Marriage is Wrong

(1)Homosexuality is not natural. Real people always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

(2)Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

(3)Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

(4)Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn?t changed at all; women are still property, blacks still aren?t supposed to marry whites.

(5)Straight marriage will be less meaningful if homosexual marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears? 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

(6)Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Homosexual couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn?t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren?t full yet, and the world needs more children.

(7)Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

(8)Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That?s why we have only one religion in North America.

(9)Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That?s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

(10)Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven?t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

Some are funny, some are pretty stupid.

 

[EXman]

Originally posted by: Taggart
this belongs in P&N

or the repost toilet?

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: amicold

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I am married and straight but I have a few gay coworkers and I have yet to hear one good argument against allowing them to marry. With the government so up in a huff about this issue, I just can't see their justification.

Nothing wrong with marriage, but when they start to adopt kids, that's where I draw the line. The kids will possibly be screwed up from having two dads,..or moms for that matter. There's a reason two same sex people can't produce a child.

I feel that since gays apparently want to raise kids, the burden should be on them to prove that doing so doesn't stand to harm the kids at all. I'm not being hysterical here, but it's never been (close to) proven that homosexuality cannot be caused by nurture, and it is obviously preferable to have kids grow up sexually normal, all else being equal.

So you feel like you can present any argument against, without any evidence, and then demand that the opposing side prove it for you? No, the onus is on he who presents the argument, never on he who has the argument presented to him.